Gen III N/A -vs- SC build

[JLorello]

Trying to figure out here what I want to do with my car end of this year and this winter. I am leaning towards the mod path compared to trading it for a Gen 4. With the exception of the hood, there isn't many visuals or reasons that will lean me to the Gen 4, I just want the extra 100hp.

Curious to get some opinions to anyone with a heads/cam Gen III if they wished they would just paxton the car instead. Here are my 2 options:

1: Paxton kit with exhaust, 650-700RWHP, ~10K-12K invested

2: Intake, Cat-Back, headers, Hi-flow cats, GG heads, ported intake, Cam, Tune, ~600RWHP??, Cost = ??

Am I accurate with my N/A HP guess?

I would THINK that a N/A car would have less stress on the motor than a SC build, thus leading to better reliability. The downside, obviously, is you don't get as much power.

Any opinions on which way to go? Haven't been able to get info on Gen III N/A builds. (My goal is 575+ RWHP)

Thanks!

 

[2easy]

You did not mention the number of miles on your car but IMO, if you go NA, you are getting a fresh, very strong engine after the build. I would lean toward SCing it if its a low mile car, and going NA on a higher miled car. Or, if you have gobs of cash to throw at it, build it from the bottom up and twin turbo it.

 

[345s-bspinnin]

The general consensus has always been that SC is cheaper that N/A, but I disagree. Both will run about $7-8K for parts. Add an additional $2-3K for headers/cats. That assumption is that your bottom end isn't being built. In terms of power, the nominal/base boost on SC will yield power numbers higher than NA, but both produce comparable results at the 1/4.

There are few NA threads. Search for "Dipapa." His NA numbers were somewhere north of 650whp.

My $.02

 

[JLorello]

Factory bottom end. I am basing my comparison that I only desire ~600rwhp and want to go whichever route yields a less stressed motor. There is also having to bare with "just another Paxton'd viper".

The NA build I am invisioning is simply a "bolt-on" Gen III (intake, tune, and full exhaust) + GG heads and a cam. It SEEMS very simple compared to having a power adder package that can heat soak. Problem is I don't know if my NA build will yield the type of power I am expecting.

(5000 miles on the car currently, probably around 10,000 when I start messing with it)

 

[plumcrazy]

how are you going to use the car ? 1/4 mile, road race, street, street racing ?

 

[JLorello]

90% street, 5% road race, 5% 1/4 mile

 

[DeceptioN]

By street racing you mean down in Mexico on that private closed off road we all share?

 

[345s-bspinnin]

.... Problem is I don't know if my NA build will yield the type of power I am expecting.....

Yes. I discussed this very topic recently with GG and he affirmed that 600whp is reasonably doable with this head work, cam selection, free flowing exhaust, and a good tune.

 

[STUGOTS]

hate to say it but either way you should build the bottom end, my BONE stock 04 its being rebuilt as we speak

 

[345s-bspinnin]

hate to say it but either way you should build the bottom end, my BONE stock 04 its being rebuilt as we speak

Can you provide a bit more information. Spun bearing, #3? Connecting Rod failure? Just curious to see what caused the anomaly, and see if there is something that can be mitigated.

 

[STUGOTS]

spun #10 actually (only one I have heard of)

 

[ssjcreeper]

You must be reading my mind, this is exactly what I've been weighing out for a Fall/Winter project. I'm in the same boat, looking for 550-600rwhp, mostly street use, etc. Based on what I've read and in conversations with Roe about their heads, cam, and headers.... those numbers are do-able.

The N/A build is looking more and more appealing to me, but I'm struggling to find a reputable shop within a reasonable distance. Thinking I'll have to bite the bullet and haul it up to Tator.

Trying to figure out here what I want to do with my car end of this year and this winter. I am leaning towards the mod path compared to trading it for a Gen 4. With the exception of the hood, there isn't many visuals or reasons that will lean me to the Gen 4, I just want the extra 100hp.

Curious to get some opinions to anyone with a heads/cam Gen III if they wished they would just paxton the car instead. Here are my 2 options:

1: Paxton kit with exhaust, 650-700RWHP, ~10K-12K invested

2: Intake, Cat-Back, headers, Hi-flow cats, GG heads, ported intake, Cam, Tune, ~600RWHP??, Cost = ??

Am I accurate with my N/A HP guess?

I would THINK that a N/A car would have less stress on the motor than a SC build, thus leading to better reliability. The downside, obviously, is you don't get as much power.

Any opinions on which way to go? Haven't been able to get info on Gen III N/A builds. (My goal is 575+ RWHP)

Thanks!

 

[DeceptioN]

You get more power with forced induction for cheaper than an N/A build. Any reason people are wanting to go N/A?

I spent a **** ton of money on a Mustang I have trying to make N/A power. I gained maybe 100 rwhp all motor then said screw it, and for 1/6th of the price I spent on going all motor, I doubled my gains with NOS. If I would of went supercharger it would of cost half the price of going N/A for similiar results as the NOS but I'd have it all the time and not have to refill a bottle.

I keep having to stop myself from buying N/A mods, twin turbo is my goal.

 

[ssjcreeper]

I hear what you're saying. Its part of my struggle. I had a supercharged C6 that was a lot of fun, but haven't had a cammed car in years. Hearing a car with a thumpin cam always gets my attention. A couple vette buddies had their share of issues after forced induction on their LS2s, figured I'd go back to N/A and place less stress on the stock internals. For roughly $10k I figured I would be in the 650 ish range (crank) which is short of the Paxton, but basically the same cost. It should be enough to keep me pacified for street use. Should be....

You get more power with forced induction for cheaper than an N/A build. Any reason people are wanting to go N/A?

I spent a **** ton of money on a Mustang I have trying to make N/A power. I gained maybe 100 rwhp all motor then said screw it, and for 1/6th of the price I spent on going all motor, I doubled my gains with NOS. If I would of went supercharger it would of cost half the price of going N/A for similiar results as the NOS but I'd have it all the time and not have to refill a bottle.

I keep having to stop myself from buying N/A mods, twin turbo is my goal.

 

[Zentenk]

NA is for wusses, get TT or buy a prius... that is normally how it goes.

 

[ssjcreeper]

I want to cam my Prius.

 

[JLorello]

One way I think about it is for ~ 10k invested I can have the power that bolt on Gen IV's put down, 575-610 RWHP, for roughly HALF the cost (Gen III + 20K) it would take to trade my 06 in for a 08 and add bolt-ons. I would put down nearly the same power as a bolt on Gen IV for less $ and appearance wise, basically pull off the same look.

Keep in mind this is staying away from forced induction. I would "roughly" turn my Gen III into a bolt on Gen IV for 10K.

 

[ViperTony]

IMO, DiPapa did his NA build right, check out his threads for more information if you decide to go this route:

Built Motor Update
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/638172-now-its-a-built-motor!!!?highlight=buildNow It's a Built Motor!!!
GenIII NA Built Motor

You can certainly trust what Greg Good recommends and you may also want to give Todd @ AC Performance. Both are a tremendous help.

 

[ssjcreeper]

Tony, thanks for the links. I definitely need to talk to Greg, Dipapa's results are very impressive. If I can get in the neighborhood of 600rwhp with stock bottom end I'll be more than satisfied.

 

[ViperTony]

If I can get in the neighborhood of 600rwhp with stock bottom end I'll be more than satisfied.

Yeah...I thought he same too...now I'm craving a lot more, lol. It never ends.

 

[plumcrazy]

tony, i warned you about that.....

 

[Paul Hawker]

Another option is to sell your low mileage gen III and spend $10-15K to upgrade to a used Gen IV.

You not only get the extra 100 hp, but the new hood, better rear end, loose the run flats, get lighter wheels, better tires, upgraded suspension/shocks, stronger & smoother shifting transmission, stronger dual/lighter dual clutch, variable cam, better mileage, faster Venom computer, swinging oil pickup, and all the other Gen IV goodies.

Also get a factory warranty, and better resale.

If you still want more hp down the road there is a pretty easy upgrade road to 700 naturally aspirated hp already developed and ready to bolt on.

Something to think about.

 

[Nader]

I am just beginning a custom build on my 04 with Dan at Viper Specialties. I considered a paxton for about 3 seconds but the heat soak issue and possible issues with longevity, not to mention, the additional 100 pounds over the front end, made me go down the NA path. While it is far more costly, I believe it is the way to go for my driving style and requirements. I am doing something completely custom and will detail the build once Dan is done. It will be one of the first of its kind. Well at least the first of its kind here on this site. It will be impressive. I am shooting for 580-600 to the wheels with a stock bottom end.

 

[ulllose]

I am just beginning a custom build on my 04 with Dan at Viper Specialties. I considered a paxton for about 3 seconds but the heat soak issue and possible issues with longevity, not to mention, the additional 100 pounds over the front end, made me go down the NA path. While it is far more costly, I believe it is the way to go for my driving style and requirements. I am doing something completely custom and will detail the build once Dan is done. It will be one of the first of its kind. Well at least the first of its kind here on this site. It will be impressive. I am shooting for 580-600 to the wheels with a stock bottom end.

Must be bolting on some Gen 4 heads and the rest of the goodies

 

[DeceptioN]

Any update on the build?

 

[Twister]

na build all the way..stock gen3 is around 3400 pounds. delete the cats and cross over pipeing plus ported heads and cam and youve got a 3300 pound 580 rwhp car that can trapp 132 mph in the quarter. even with just my comp coupe cam and few bolt ons At 500 rwhp and 540 rwt and 3300 pounds i can destroy stock z06s and recently beat the mostrous lp570 superlegerra gallardo wich is a lil faster than a gen4.

imagine how fast 600 rwhp 32xx pound gen3 is. gen4 is a beaste but a 550 rwhp gen3 will pull on a stock 550 rwhp gen4. it will be 100 tp 150 pounds lighter and have wayyyyyyyy more torque and more umph in the lower rpm's..

just my 540 rwt from my lil 500 rwhp build has more tq than gen4s

 

[fqberful]

I'm convinced now that a GenIII build is the way to go especially with the tuning issues. Going NA with some awesome heads, cam, intake and a catless exhaust is a definite advantage. It's been told to me by a tuner that putting a GenIV top end on a stock GenIII bottom end with a cam and good exhaust will put you in the 700hp ballpark. Bonus. By staying away from the forced induction you save everything and have far less tuning and driveability issues.

 

[JLorello]

Yeah, I am pretty convinced a NA build will be a much more enjoyable car than a SC build. Funny, there isn't really THAT much to a NA viper, intake, exhaust, cam, and ported heads. practically 4 mods total. (oh yeah, and a tune)

I don't need an insane HP monster, I will be perfectly happy in the 575-625rwhp range. I definitely, think if/when I mod, it will be a heads/cam build.

FastMatt has a 612rwhp stryker heads and cam Gen II and says he punishes his friend's SC viper.

Still enjoying the car stock, although the cabin heat is getting annoying. Thinking hi-flows and a corsa will be coming soon

 

[Nine Ball]

I disagree. 650 rwhp all-motor setup will always have more drivability issues than a 650 rwhp forced induction setup that is still running the stock engine. My supercharged cars all drive identical to stock, until you floor it. Aggressive cam specs and all that is required to make big NA power, all contribute to a worse drivability experience.

 

[Red Snake]

You get more power with forced induction for cheaper than an N/A build. Any reason people are wanting to go N/A?

....................................

600 rwhp N/A will likely beat a 700 rwhp Paxton car in a street race or 1/4 mile race (given comparable drivers). Some people just like a heads/cam motor better.