Gen III oiling issues

[ipetrov]

Forgive me for the noob question but I’m early in my freshman year of viper ownership. My preliminary research indicated a fairly robust, if not bulletproof, stock Gen III drivetrain, plagued by only a few minor common defects such as occasional plugged cats, shattered diffs at hard launches, maybe a bit weaker than necessary pushrods at high hp levels, etc.

I’ve seen, however, a fairly good number of posts on various forums about Gen III engines blown from oil starvation, usually due to G forces. While those were almost always admittedly hard-tracked cars (with blow-ups happening at the track), SRT revised the next gen oil pan to the swinging pick-up design. I wonder if they did that just to make the Gen IV more appealing to the buyer base who track the cars, or they had other (e.g. spirited street driving) reliability concerns in mind. I realize that better oiling also allowed a higher-revving (higher horsepower) engine, a good selling point.

Yet, an upgraded oil pan ($2.5k in parts?) is not on the typical list of mods even on N/A builds pushing upwards of 600 whp. I’m not a track rat (quite yet), but I probably introduce a good amount of oil sloshing by spirited acceleration blips or hard stopping. I presume I shouldn’t be worried about my engine’s blood circulation if I keep the car off the track, even if I drive spiritedly (not recklessly), as I imagine it would take a long high speed, high-G turn to deprive the beast of the vital fluid long enough to make it spill its guts. Is there any reason to upgrade the oil pan of a street car with entry-level bolt-on mods? Thanks!

Ivan

 

[Allan]

I have been tracking my gen III hard for the last 30,000 miles with no issue. (stock oil pan and pick up) No tracks with long high speed sweepers though. I have seen the oil pressure gauge fluctuate on occasion in longer turns, but not to below 20psi. I have been changing the oil after every weekend at the track and I run 1 quart overfill. I worry more about the stupid power steering line, as I have lost that at the track (twice). *****!

 

[Viper Specialty]

I have been tracking my gen III hard for the last 30,000 miles with no issue. (stock oil pan and pick up) No tracks with long high speed sweepers though. I have seen the oil pressure gauge fluctuate on occasion in longer turns, but not to below 20psi. I have been changing the oil after every weekend at the track and I run 1 quart overfill. I worry more about the stupid power steering line, as I have lost that at the track (twice). *****!

You are REALLY pushing your luck. The stock gauge is dampened, you can believe that your pressure is fluctuating to near zero and back again during those times. The Gen-3's are notorious for rod bearing failures, I strongly caution you; its not worth it, change your oil pan! We see more Viper engines through here than most people would guess- it is all too common, even on race-prepped engines build to help the issue.

 

[Allan]

What is different about the newer pan....baffles?.......Windage tray?.....

 

[David Pintaric]

What is different about the newer pan....baffles?.......Windage tray?.....

Swinging pickup...

Dan makes a nice Gen 4 conversion for Gen 3 motor. Buy it, it's worth every penny.

 

[ipetrov]

Thank you all for your responses! I will strongly consider the Gen IV oil pan conversion if I decide to get serious about racing the car. Dan, have you seen oil starvation failures that happened during street driving? Also, is Gen III oil starvation an on/off phenomenon (you are either 100% fine or 100% screwed), like the recent 2013 BMW M5/M6 oil pump fiasco, or is it the case that temporary starvation could cause a problem that may not be apparent until some later time?

 

[Allan]

.....................................

 

[Viper Specialty]

What is different about the newer pan....baffles?.......Windage tray?.....

The new pan design has a completely revised baffle layout, as well as an articulating pickup head. The Gen-3 oil system is actually poor from top to bottom; the pan has pickup issues, the oil pump rotor is too wide and has filling rate issues, and is too small volume overall, the relief valve surges and cavitates, and the main bearing design is poor [though this was corrected to a point in 2005].

However, it is a domino effect. When the oil pickup starves, the rest of the system problems start to show [primarily at high RPM], and it has a poor recovery speed as a result. The Gen-4 oiling system was redesigned to help all of these issues, but the complete system is not cost effective to convert; it is a ton of machine work, modification, and parts- we have done it a few times. The best compromise is a new pan design, and main bearing changes for 2003-2006 cars, though 2005-2006 have decent main bearings already. As long as the pickup remains in tact, the downstream problems are very limited.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thank you all for your responses! I will strongly consider the Gen IV oil pan conversion if I decide to get serious about racing the car. Dan, have you seen oil starvation failures that happened during street driving? Also, is Gen III oil starvation an on/off phenomenon (you are either 100% fine or 100% screwed), like the recent 2013 BMW M5/M6 oil pump fiasco, or is it the case that temporary starvation could cause a problem that may not be apparent until some later time?

You can liken the oil system issues to walking out in your back yard with an axe, and once a day, taking a swing at a tree. Sooner or later, you will take that tree down, or mother nature will do it for you due to the weakness you have caused. This is much like causing it directly during oil starvation, or simply causing wear to the point the condition runs away on its own.

The answer is that wear is cumulative. Sooner or later, it WILL fail and it wont matter if you are on the street or track. The key is to help the oiling system function as best you can, and replace your rod bearings at intervals that will prevent the final failure from occurring. I have seen street failures, yes, but they are usually cars which have seen a race track as well.

 

[ipetrov]

Dan, as always, you are an invaluable contributor of vital free information on these forums. Thanks so much! I got exactly the kind of answers I was looking for. Reliability trumps increased performance on my priority list, so it looks like I'll be giving you a call after this upcoming winter hibernation to discuss improving my car's blood circulation. If the prices I see on your website for the upgraded pick-up and pan are any guide for total cost (~$2k in parts), it's cheap insurance to prevent a rebuild down the road. In my wishful thinking I probably severely underestimate labor costs...

For now I'll take some comfort in the fact that I have an '05 model that won't be driven much in the next little while

 

[jknappster]

Why not just use a Oil Accumulator? You can get a 3 Quart Capacity one for around $200.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Why not just use a Oil Accumulator? You can get a 3 Quart Capacity one for around $200.

They do not actually solve the problem, they only help it a little. The accumulators do not have enough volume to oil a Viper engine for long, that is problem #1. They do a wonderful job of evening out surge and slight fluctuations, but unfortunately, they actually cause an inadvertent second issue when dealing with the oil system issue at hand, since these systems tend to see a complete and total loss of pressure momentarily. The Viper oil pump has a slowed rate of recovery when pumping against a head pressure from the Accusump, that is the caused problem. Of course "some" pressure from an Accusump is better than zero- but it is far better to simply solve the issue at its root, and THEN add an Accusump on top of that.

 

[ipetrov]

I am surprised that there isn't more information out there about the poor design of the Gen III oiling system, or that an upgrade is not a very common mod (or at least not commonly included in mod lists). Maybe it's all there but I just lack the killer searching skills necessary... Anyway, glad I asked.

 

[Cobraken]

Is this also an issue for the SRT 10 Ram motors?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Is this also an issue for the SRT 10 Ram motors?

Not nearly as bad. They have a deep sump oil pan which is nothing like the Viper's, and they are not as easily capable of the high G cornering and acceleration as the Viper.

 

[swexlin]

So will all the Gen 3s go sooner or later? Now I'm concerned...

 

[Konza800]

Here is a video that I took a few years ago at Mid-Ohio showing the issue. When I saw this I immediately parked the car and purchased the Gen 4 swing arm pickup and pan. After the installation the pressure stays up even in the left hand turns. Highly recommended.

Be sure to watch in HD
http://youtu.be/w1cHTj55_UU

 

[TowDawg]

Here is a video that I took a few years ago at Mid-Ohio showing the issue. When I saw this I immediately parked the car and purchased the Gen 4 swing arm pickup and pan. After the installation the pressure stays up even in the left hand turns. Highly recommended.

Be sure to watch in HD
http://youtu.be/w1cHTj55_UU

You seem to running a much lower pressure than any other Gen III I've ever seen to begin with. At a really light cruise or at idle (after warming up), Gen III gauges are usually pegged to the right. Even while you're running hard, yours is just sitting in the middle.

 

[swexlin]

My 2003 has the 0-80 gauge, and start up, and under throttle, it's usually to the right, only at idle or braking (after warm up) does it go to the middle.

 

[Konza800]

I havent compared it to other Vipers but after I installed the swing arm pickup the pressure is 60-65 cold and 50-55 hot on track. It no longer swings wildly like in the video.

 

[ipetrov]

Konza, thanks for the useful video, helps illustrate the point quite well. Maybe the reason that street-driven cars don't grenade is that, per the video, straight acceleration, hard braking, and even hard right cornering don't seem to impact oil pressure that much, as inaccurate as the OEM gauge may be. Then again, as Dan said, the damage could be cumulative and unpredictable (god forbid, unavoidable) as rod bearings wear out over time...

The Gen IV oil pan conversion is now at the top of my upgrade list, in front of any other types of power adders or cosmetic surgery.

 

[TowDawg]

My pressure gauge pretty much stays pegged to the right on the track. I do run a thicker oil (15W-50), but it did this even with the 0W-40.
I'll go back and watch some of my videos to confirm, but I'm almost certain that mine stays much higher when running all out. Who knows?

 

[AFL in NJ]

For what its worth, I am always at 40 psi at idle and 50 psi at every other rpm. I know if I buy a Gen III anytime soon I'll be calling Dan. I've seen a few Gen III's with a rod through the side of them in the 7+ years I've owned my Gen II.

Regards,
Aaron

 

[Viper Specialty]

Guys- Keep in mind that 2003's have a 0-80 gauge, 2004's have a 0-100 w/the older main bearings, and 2005-2006 have the 0-100 w/the new mains. Basically, as the car climbs in model year, the normal pressure for the car drops. [until 2008]

 

[TowDawg]

Gotcha! Thanks Dan! I thought the Gen IV's changed to the higher reading gauge. I didn't know it changed in '04.

 

[swexlin]

You guys are still makin' me nervous. Sounds like the early 8.3s were really kinda sucky.

 

[Allan]

That dude's video is what my car does. and come to think of it, only in the hard left turns. Only one of the tracks I run on has turns that give me this trouble. ......I may just take a different car when I go there, or I need the swinging pick-up......

 

[Viper Specialty]

You guys are still makin' me nervous. Sounds like the early 8.3s were really kinda sucky.

Its all relative, and it can all be fixed. The Gen-3's do have their strong points, and a Gen-3 purchased with a Gen-4 budget can be turned into a monster with no downsides...

 

[Hirkophoto]

I think we have to keep this in perspective. Dan is correct on all his points for sure. I would just add that normal driving and even spirited street driving is not going to be a problem as long as you check and maintain your oil. In most cases you are not sustaining the g force needed to cause the starvation of the oil. Most street driving even fast does not have turns like a race track. Your not going to be doing the extreme heavy Braking accelerating and g force , if you are then y of need to take it to the track.
I put the swing arm pan in my 06 it's cheaper then getting a motor.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I think we have to keep this in perspective. Dan is correct on all his points for sure. I would just add that normal driving and even spirited street driving is not going to be a problem as long as you check and maintain your oil. In most cases you are not sustaining the g force needed to cause the starvation of the oil. Most street driving even fast does not have turns like a race track. Your not going to be doing the extreme heavy Braking accelerating and g force , if you are then y of need to take it to the track.
I put the swing arm pan in my 06 it's cheaper then getting a motor.

Scott-

I would tend to agree, but I have indeed seen this problem caused by half-circle+ banked on/off ramps and sticky tires. While unlikely, it certainly is possible for some guys depending on their local roads.