Gen IV w/ bolt ons? Gen 3 Paxtonized? Or ACR?

[black mamba1]

Considering your price range, you may want to think about the Twin Turbo option. A basic TT kit on a Gen-3 will be within your range, and put down 700ish to the wheels without a problem. The newer TT kits available are also modular, and can be upgraded later if you should desire to do so, without having to re-purchase everything.

The Gen-4's are fantastic cars, come with a warranty, will respond the best to large mods, etc... and will certainly hold their value better- but they have a high starting price tag, and are very expensive to take into any type of forced induction category because you will need either a Pectel or a Motec controller to do so at $10,000 a pop. If you can swing it however, they are the best starting point possible now that technology has caught up. And that ACR Vert is DAMN ****.

And last but not least... what would you do if I told you that for the price of a nice Gen-4, I can build you a Gen-3... with a Gen-4 engine, trans, diff, etc.... all controlled by a Pectel SQ6M12 [a $10,000 controller, complete with Traction/Launch control, full digital heads up dash, etc] and ready for you to take on whatever type of Forced Induction you could want from a tuning/controller standpoint? [ha, not that I could even get to this soon... but it would be an option!] I could even take it to the next level for a bit more, and make it "Forced Induction Ready" drivetrain and or fuel system wise. Just pick your poison and bolt it on. This option would give you the best of all worlds; best price point, all the advantages of the Gen-4, with none of the disadvantages of controller issues. [I will actually have an example of a car like this completed in a month or so]

The options are limitless when you are starting from scratch!

Dan I have bought from you before and you are definitely first class and one of the few tuners wherein I actually believe everything you write. This is a very very nice option...what about the internals? Are you running stock rods and pistons? Also, what is the difference between the Gen 4 and Gen 3 rods and pistons? I am NOT comfortable with stock Gen 3 internals, any forced induciton with stock internals on a Gen 3 is one bad tune away from disaster in my view.

 

[Nader]

Dan you never cease to amaze me. Are you able to make the throttle by wire system more responsive? That is my major issue with the genIV.

I have another slightly off topic question - are you able to advance the cam all the time to gain back some of the lost low end of the gen4? Can you run the cam advanced all the time? Will it run ok?

Considering your price range, you may want to think about the Twin Turbo option. A basic TT kit on a Gen-3 will be within your range, and put down 700ish to the wheels without a problem. The newer TT kits available are also modular, and can be upgraded later if you should desire to do so, without having to re-purchase everything.

The Gen-4's are fantastic cars, come with a warranty, will respond the best to large mods, etc... and will certainly hold their value better- but they have a high starting price tag, and are very expensive to take into any type of forced induction category because you will need either a Pectel or a Motec controller to do so at $10,000 a pop. If you can swing it however, they are the best starting point possible now that technology has caught up. And that ACR Vert is DAMN ****.

And last but not least... what would you do if I told you that for the price of a nice Gen-4, I can build you a Gen-3... with a Gen-4 engine, trans, diff, etc.... all controlled by a Pectel SQ6M12 [a $10,000 controller, complete with Traction/Launch control, full digital heads up dash, etc] and ready for you to take on whatever type of Forced Induction you could want from a tuning/controller standpoint? [ha, not that I could even get to this soon... but it would be an option!] I could even take it to the next level for a bit more, and make it "Forced Induction Ready" drivetrain and or fuel system wise. Just pick your poison and bolt it on. This option would give you the best of all worlds; best price point, all the advantages of the Gen-4, with none of the disadvantages of controller issues. [I will actually have an example of a car like this completed in a month or so]

The options are limitless when you are starting from scratch!

 

[TrackAire]

Nader,

I do think you are 100% correct regarding the Gen 4....if the cam can be manipulated to provide more timing down low and better throttle reponse both up and down the rpm range, the Gen 4 motor would be a true monster. It doesn't really need to make more top end power, just more power under the graph which to me means more acceleration up to redline.

I'm not a VVT cam expert, but I do think there is a hydraulic oil funtion to munipulating the cam at whatever rpm the program tells it to....I don't think it is just a dynamic rpm based system. If anybody knows how this cam works and what would be the "potential" adjustment of it, please chime in.

Cheers,
George

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan I have bought from you before and you are definitely first class and one of the few tuners wherein I actually believe everything you write. This is a very very nice option...what about the internals? Are you running stock rods and pistons? Also, what is the difference between the Gen 4 and Gen 3 rods and pistons? I am NOT comfortable with stock Gen 3 internals, any forced induciton with stock internals on a Gen 3 is one bad tune away from disaster in my view.

Hi Keith,

On that base setup, the internals would be unchanged. It would in effect be a "Gen-4 Conversion with a Pectel EMS for the price of a normal Gen-4"... basically saving you the 10K EMS costs.

Now, if you wanted to talk about modding, then absolutely- we are finalizing our Gen-4 engine package as I speak- just waiting for the machine work to be completed and the components are already in production for us. These are a NEW line of components that have been altered from our older designs to accommodate the new head profile on the Gen-4, and takes into account the new platform strengths and weaknesses. There are also some "firsts"... this platform will be running Piston Oil Squirters to help cool the pistons- to my knowledge this has not been done before.

I could certainly mod the engine in any which way you would like, or substitute various components in effect making it a "built to order" car. For example, I could charge you the difference, and install a McLeod Twin Disc Clutch instead of the 08 twin disc, and a Quaife diff rather than the OEM GKN ViscoLok. I could also build the engine, as mild or as wild, and have it be ready for TT in the future. The same goes for the fuel system.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan you never cease to amaze me. Are you able to make the throttle by wire system more responsive? That is my major issue with the genIV.

I have another slightly off topic question - are you able to advance the cam all the time to gain back some of the lost low end of the gen4? Can you run the cam advanced all the time? Will it run ok?

Hi Tom,

The FBW will be 100% under the control of the Pectel EMS on any of these cars, and lag time will be minimized. Response rates based on Pedal Position are completely controllable in the software.

While we can mechanically advance the Cam [intake lobes], yes, it will come at a price of higher end power. The Viper already has quite a lot of low end torque. When not having to be in the constraints of emissions, and adding on Forced Induction, the low end is no longer an issue. It would have to be run advanced all the time, at least on the Intake lobe, as the exhaust lobe is variable. It would run OK, but I don't think there would be a major benefit, especially on the N/A cars.

 

[redtanrt10]

My Viper was n/a and had a built motor capable of withstanding 1000 rwhp, but I only had about 512 rwhp and like 537 rwtq tested on a Mustang Dyno. But the car was a dream to drive and the power was almost enough for me. I love the balance of the Viper without the s/c weight in the nose and the intercoolers, water tanks...etc

For my next Viper I definitely want a Gen IV. I wantto put a Belanger full exhaust system and a cam, hi flow air filters. Anyone have any kind of data as to what kind of power these mods will add to a GEn 4? Is a performance cam available for a Gen 4?

I am also considering an ACR, but I hate the fact that there are no convertible versions.

Any ideas?[/quote]




Black Mamba

We just did a dyno day at DC Performance yesterday. Dan uses a dynojet that always seems more conservatve than most. For comparsion purposes, the Gen III's w/headers, exhaust, ecu flash, etc. make about 470hp on his dyno. Stock Gen IV's were making 520-530.

Gen IV's with headers, exhaust, ECU and ported intakes (DC or Arrow) make 570-580 hp. Dan and Lyle said that their close to a ported head that will make another 20-30 rwhp.

Since you like convertibles and road race, I'd suggest that you get a real nice clean used 08 vert which is $40K less than a new ACR vert. Add Moton's, stop tech's, roll bar, hardtop, plus all the bolt ons (headers/ehaust/ECU,intake). You can make a killer vert for under $75K. Later if you want aero consider the APR wing/splitter. etc.

But in reality you are more of a street runner, find a genIII with a Paxton.

good luck,

Mike

 

[Viper Specialty]

Nader,

I do think you are 100% correct regarding the Gen 4....if the cam can be manipulated to provide more timing down low and better throttle reponse both up and down the rpm range, the Gen 4 motor would be a true monster. It doesn't really need to make more top end power, just more power under the graph which to me means more acceleration up to redline.

I'm not a VVT cam expert, but I do think there is a hydraulic oil funtion to munipulating the cam at whatever rpm the program tells it to....I don't think it is just a dynamic rpm based system. If anybody knows how this cam works and what would be the "potential" adjustment of it, please chime in.

Cheers,
George

Hi George,

I believe he is talking about the fact that the Gen-4 camshaft is MECHANICALLY ******** 6 degrees on the intake side [non variable lobes] in order to move the power band a bit higher into the rev range and take advantage of the new heads. The exhaust lobes are the variable set, and controlled by a pwm hydraulic valve biasing oil pressure to a Cam Phaser.

While I cannot speak for the VENOM programming, the Pectel will have full control over this, and it will be fully adjustable on a dynamic scale based on RPM/MAP, as well as normalizers based on engine temp, etc. It would be quite possible to "program" lope into the idle, or something along those lines if so desired.

 

[TrackAire]

Thanks for the explanation Dan,

Do you think that there is more power to be had with just a ported intake, headers and exhaust on a Gen 4 using a Pectel over the stock Venom programming? Would manipulated the exhaust timing at low rpm help with power?

A lopey idle would be kinda cool, too.

My goal is to maximize reliable Gen 4 power with bolt ons and programming without having to tear into the motor.

Cheers,
George

 

[Ray W]

I have had both cars at the same time for over a year. There is no real difference. The average at the strip for me has been that the supercharged car so far is one tenth of a second quicker and 2-3mph slower than my Gen IV.

In the standing mile I have not run the supercharged car though the best mph I have witnessed has been 168mph for a stock tuned car against a best of 179mph so far for my Gen IV. Maybe Bob P has seen a better run for the supercharged Gen III but I don't think he has ran his car yet.

At the dyno 658rwhp for the Gen III and 579rwhp for the Gen IV. Though the supercharger makes more peak horsepower the Gen IV makes power sooner in the powerband and dosen't fall off as much on the gear shifts.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thanks for the explanation Dan,

Do you think that there is more power to be had with just a ported intake, headers and exhaust on a Gen 4 using a Pectel over the stock Venom programming? Would manipulated the exhaust timing at low rpm help with power?

A lopey idle would be kinda cool, too.

My goal is to maximize reliable Gen 4 power with bolt ons and programming without having to tear into the motor.

Cheers,
George

The answer is invariably "yes" on all accounts, as I would not have to work within the constraints of emissions compliance.

 

[anton28]

Dan can you make a GEN 4 car lope like a stock 96GTS-99GTS or even rougher?

 

[black mamba1]

I have had both cars at the same time for over a year. There is no real difference. The average at the strip for me has been that the supercharged car so far is one tenth of a second quicker and 2-3mph slower than my Gen IV.

In the standing mile I have not run the supercharged car though the best mph I have witnessed has been 168mph for a stock tuned car against a best of 179mph so far for my Gen IV. Maybe Bob P has seen a better run for the supercharged Gen III but I don't think he has ran his car yet.

At the dyno 658rwhp for the Gen III and 579rwhp for the Gen IV. Though the supercharger makes more peak horsepower the Gen IV makes power sooner in the powerband and dosen't fall off as much on the gear shifts.

Ray, what mods do you have? If you are running 579 rwhp thats like 670 or so flywheel, will your Gen 4 beat your ZR1?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan can you make a GEN 4 car lope like a stock 96GTS-99GTS or even rougher?

Absolutely. The Gen-4 cam has 45 degrees of articulation, which is FAR more than would be needed to sweep from a "creampuff" cam to a "lumpy cam".

 

[anton28]

Absolutely. The Gen-4 cam has 45 degrees of articulation, which is FAR more than would be needed to sweep from a "creampuff" cam to a "lumpy cam".

Thats great. Has anyone done this? Would love to hear what that would sound like with headers, exhaust, ported heads, ported intake and a nice tune. Nothing better then a mean lump at idle. Really makes the point of whats under the hood. A V10 BEAST!!!

 

[Ray W]

Keith, Belanger headers w/new cats and exhaust. Mopar computer. K&N filter and 3:55 gears. Gen III is Woodhouse installed base unit with no other changes not even exhaust.

Currently the Viper beats the ZR-1's times and mph in the quarter mile. In fairness I have made only 4 passes in the vette and probably 10 in the Viper. I have yet to make a pass in either car that I am happy with. Every pass has had a problem. Wheelspin at the launch or hooking up in first just to pop out of gear,wheel hop and /or spinning the tires on the 1-2 shift. I need to go to the track and get more than 1 run per hour to get used to the cars.

In the standing mile the two cars are dead even @ 179mph. ZR-1 is totally stock not even k&n filters.

 

[black mamba1]

Keith, Belanger headers w/new cats and exhaust. Mopar computer. K&N filter and 3:55 gears. Gen III is Woodhouse installed base unit with no other changes not even exhaust.

Currently the Viper beats the ZR-1's times and mph in the quarter mile. In fairness I have made only 4 passes in the vette and probably 10 in the Viper. I have yet to make a pass in either car that I am happy with. Every pass has had a problem. Wheelspin at the launch or hooking up in first just to pop out of gear,wheel hop and /or spinning the tires on the 1-2 shift. I need to go to the track and get more than 1 run per hour to get used to the cars.

In the standing mile the two cars are dead even @ 179mph. ZR-1 is totally stock not even k&n filters.

How does your Paxton car hold up against the others in the mile?

 

[eucharistos]

Considering your price range, you may want to think about the Twin Turbo option. A basic TT kit on a Gen-3 will be within your range, and put down 700ish to the wheels without a problem. The newer TT kits available are also modular, and can be upgraded later if you should desire to do so, without having to re-purchase everything.

The Gen-4's are fantastic cars, come with a warranty, will respond the best to large mods, etc... and will certainly hold their value better- but they have a high starting price tag, and are very expensive to take into any type of forced induction category because you will need either a Pectel or a Motec controller to do so at $10,000 a pop. If you can swing it however, they are the best starting point possible now that technology has caught up. And that ACR Vert is DAMN ****.

And last but not least... what would you do if I told you that for the price of a nice Gen-4, I can build you a Gen-3... with a Gen-4 engine, trans, diff, etc.... all controlled by a Pectel SQ6M12 [a $10,000 controller, complete with Traction/Launch control, full digital heads up dash, etc] and ready for you to take on whatever type of Forced Induction you could want from a tuning/controller standpoint? [ha, not that I could even get to this soon... but it would be an option!] I could even take it to the next level for a bit more, and make it "Forced Induction Ready" drivetrain and or fuel system wise. Just pick your poison and bolt it on. This option would give you the best of all worlds; best price point, all the advantages of the Gen-4, with none of the disadvantages of controller issues. [I will actually have an example of a car like this completed in a month or so]

The options are limitless when you are starting from scratch!

Hi Keith,

On that base setup, the internals would be unchanged. It would in effect be a "Gen-4 Conversion with a Pectel EMS for the price of a normal Gen-4"... basically saving you the 10K EMS costs.

Now, if you wanted to talk about modding, then absolutely- we are finalizing our Gen-4 engine package as I speak- just waiting for the machine work to be completed and the components are already in production for us. These are a NEW line of components that have been altered from our older designs to accommodate the new head profile on the Gen-4, and takes into account the new platform strengths and weaknesses. There are also some "firsts"... this platform will be running Piston Oil Squirters to help cool the pistons- to my knowledge this has not been done before.

I could certainly mod the engine in any which way you would like, or substitute various components in effect making it a "built to order" car. For example, I could charge you the difference, and install a McLeod Twin Disc Clutch instead of the 08 twin disc, and a Quaife diff rather than the OEM GKN ViscoLok. I could also build the engine, as mild or as wild, and have it be ready for TT in the future. The same goes for the fuel system.

Absolutely. The Gen-4 cam has 45 degrees of articulation, which is FAR more than would be needed to sweep from a "creampuff" cam to a "lumpy cam".

when dan talks like this

 

[Bobpantax]

In the standing mile the stock Paxton kit car with the .74 fifth gear is hurt by the 1700 RPM drop when you shift out of 4th at about 165. My best was a shade better than 174MPH. I hit 165 before the half mile. Then I shifted to fifth. The 1700 RPM drop took too much power away since that put me at about 4350 RPM. I watched with a bit of frustration as the speedometer slowly climbed another 9 MPH. But I want to stress that the first 165 MPH was a hoot. It gets there very, very quickly. Hopefully, I will get a chance to run the car again in the standing mile this Fall. The new fifth gear limits the RPM drop to 1200 RPM - a significant improvement. Sorry. I do not have a video of any of the runs.

Since you have been away for awhile, perhaps you have not seen this video of my supercharged SRT8 Grand Cherokee running 159.52 MPH at the standing mile. We think it may be a world record for the car as modded. Enjoy!

Click here: YouTube - Jeep SRT8.m2ts

 

[black mamba1]

In the standing mile the stock Paxton kit car with the .74 fifth gear is hurt by the 1700 RPM drop when you shift out of 4th at about 165. My best was a shade better than 174MPH. I hit 165 before the half mile. Then I shifted to fifth. The 1700 RPM drop took too much power away since that put me at about 4350 RPM. I watched with a bit of frustration as the speedometer slowly climbed another 9 MPH. But I want to stress that the first 165 MPH was a hoot. It gets there very, very quickly. Hopefully, I will get a chance to run the car again in the standing mile this Fall. The new fifth gear limits the RPM drop to 1200 RPM - a significant improvement. Sorry. I do not have a video of any of the runs.

Since you have been away for awhile, perhaps you have not seen this video of my supercharged SRT8 Grand Cherokee running 159.52 MPH at the standing mile. We think it may be a world record for the car as modded. Enjoy!

Click here: YouTube - Jeep SRT8.m2ts

Nice run Bob! You are one of the smartest guys I know, but also one of the craziest!! Who in the hell supercharges Jeep Trucks and sets world records in them....

There is a saying..."If you gotta supercharged 4x4 that can outrun a Corvette in a mile run...then you might be a redn*ck!"

I love the video Bob! A Jewish redn*ck!! What in the hell is the world coming to? Next thing you know we will have a black President....ooops!

 

[black mamba1]

Ok...I will behave.

 

[Ray W]

Never ran the mile in the GEN III. Best I have seen with a stock kit is 168mph.

 

[Twister]

I would choose option Dan

 

[black mamba1]

Never ran the mile in the GEN III. Best I have seen with a stock kit is 168mph.

Ray, is their much difference in the handling between the Paxton car and the Gen 4? Can you feel the extra weight in the nose in the Gen 3 car?

Also, it seems if you are at a higher mph in the Gen 4 but a tenth of a second slower, that seems it may be traction issues. Which car hooks best? The Paxton or the Gen 4?

 

[Ray W]

Hey Bob,wasn't sure if you had ran yours there. So 174mph for now on a slightly stock kit. The new trans sounds like a good idea for the mile runs in the GEN III and IV.

 

[Ray W]

Ray, is their much difference in the handling between the Paxton car and the Gen 4? Can you feel the extra weight in the nose in the Gen 3 car?

Also, it seems if you are at a higher mph in the Gen 4 but a tenth of a second slower, that seems it may be traction issues. Which car hooks best? The Paxton or the Gen 4?

You do not know the blower is there. It is fun to see people turn around when they here it roaring up behind them.

The 3:55 gears hurt the launch at the strip on street tires. The trade off is,more fun to drive around town.

The Gen III is easier to drag race only because the throttle by wire on the GEN IV is so inconsistant. This is a non-issue on the street.

 

[Art 138]

In the standing mile the stock Paxton kit car with the .74 fifth gear is hurt by the 1700 RPM drop when you shift out of 4th at about 165. My best was a shade better than 174MPH. I hit 165 before the half mile. Then I shifted to fifth. The 1700 RPM drop took too much power away since that put me at about 4350 RPM. I watched with a bit of frustration as the speedometer slowly climbed another 9 MPH. But I want to stress that the first 165 MPH was a hoot. It gets there very, very quickly. Hopefully, I will get a chance to run the car again in the standing mile this Fall. The new fifth gear limits the RPM drop to 1200 RPM - a significant improvement. Sorry. I do not have a video of any of the runs.

Since you have been away for awhile, perhaps you have not seen this video of my supercharged SRT8 Grand Cherokee running 159.52 MPH at the standing mile. We think it may be a world record for the car as modded. Enjoy!

Click here: YouTube - Jeep SRT8.m2ts

I want to wait and see how your stock trans holds up before I do mine...

 

[ACRsnake]

If i were you - i would get a Vodoo 2010 ACR coupe (the proper ACR ) and slap on ACRx or bellanger headers+3.55 gears+K&N+ Mopar ECU and called it a day .

 

[Bobpantax]

I want to wait and see how your stock trans holds up before I do mine...

Hi Art. I think you are getting old. You made the same post last January when I had the Jeep supercharged. It now has almost 9,000 miles on it with the supercharger. The tranny does just fine. It's all in the tune and the shift point settings. The supercharged Jeeps that are damaging their trannies are not stock Vortech kits. In addition, I know that even if you supercharge it you will not really use it. It will get the car dirty. LOL.

 

[Bobpantax]

Ray, is their much difference in the handling between the Paxton car and the Gen 4? Can you feel the extra weight in the nose in the Gen 3 car?

Also, it seems if you are at a higher mph in the Gen 4 but a tenth of a second slower, that seems it may be traction issues. Which car hooks best? The Paxton or the Gen 4?

My car has Motons, Eibachs and is corner balanced. It also has a competition coupe swing arm oil pan. You cannot feel the extra weight when it is done this way. It handles as well, if not better, than a stock Gen IV. At the Homestead Speedway road course I had no difficulty staying ahead of an ACR driven by someone with a similar skill level. I pulled away from Gen IVs coming out of the corners each time. At the advanced skill level, which I do not believe that I have, on a road course which permits a higher speed, the aero parts of the ACR make a real difference due to the additional downforce. With that said, Kumo took me for a ride in my car at Palm Beach International Speedway this past January. It was incredible even though I only had the stock wheels and the PS2s on the car.( I use a set of ACR wheels with ACR tires on the road course.) He's one hell of a driver and he loved the car.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thats great. Has anyone done this? Would love to hear what that would sound like with headers, exhaust, ported heads, ported intake and a nice tune. Nothing better then a mean lump at idle. Really makes the point of whats under the hood. A V10 BEAST!!!

Not to my knowledge, no... we are the first ones working on the SQ6M12 for the Gen-4 engine, and there wont be any others until we get this one finished and prove its viability [which there isn't any question of, just the integration issues, which have already been worked through- just have to turn the key and prove it once completed]. There have been a couple Motec based cars built, but I dont know how far they went into Cam control on those cars.