Gen IV's beware at VOI

[TheMilkman]

It's not all bad just a little knowledge I picked up today.

I have been having issue with the CEL light going on when driving in the mountains and even having the Viper go into limp mode while in really bad spots (winding mountain road, lot of traffic and no where to pull off)

After about a month of in and out of the shop the dealer along with the Viper tech's figured out the issue. The problem is with the Barometric Pressure Sensor.

It seems that if you are increasing in altitude rapidly at low throttle and then ramp up the throttle the system can fail and cause the car to go into limp mode, flashing CEL. This can happen pretty easy as I found out. Just get stuck behind a slow moving vehicle while climbing a hill in the mountains. Have the car in 4th or 5th to just idle along and save gas, then punch it when the 1st passing opportunity presents itself. In my case in both instances this happened I was under 10% throttle, then jumped to 70% to pass and the car stalled.

They said there are 3 tricks to prevent this from happening, and I might go test them out this weekend. (Any reason for a drive in the mountains right?)

1) Keep the car at a constant throttle, if you are doing 2K-RPM and around 10% throttle stay there for your trip. I think the better way would be to be at 40-50 throttle and burn more gas, but have more fun. Not that I really want to climb hills in 1st or 2nd all the time.

2) Go WOT for about 10 seconds and the system will re-calibrate the sensor. Easier said than done. Although, passing going 30 in 5th while going up a steep hill you may need WOT to get around.

3) Turn the engine off for 30 seconds and restart. Again easier said than done on some tight moutain road.

If the CEL should go on and blink, stopping immediately, turning the car off and waiting the 30 seconds and restarting should clear the codes and reset the sensor as well. I was told this, yet haven't done it.

So if you are going to VOI 11 and will be going on any high mountain cruises watch for this. Although, one shouldn't be "punching it" while driving in a train

 

[01sapphirebob]

Thanks for the heads up. Let us know the out come of your tests.

 

[CitySnake]

Go WOT for about 10 seconds and the system will re-calibrate the sensor. Easier said than done.

Ya think? LOL You had best be either pushing or pulling that truck for most of those 10 seconds!

 

[Viper ACR]

I just did a 1200 mile round trip through the mountains in my 08 from Calgary to Kelowna . Luckly didn't have that issue but thanks for the info .

 

[Twister]

wow..thanks for the info

 

[Viper Specialty]

Yep, this can happen. Lots of newer cars use the MAP sensor as the BAP, and just gauge BAP at start-up. As a result, you can run into issues if you drastically change elevations in between start-ups. Normally, this wont actually cause any issues as trims will correct, but the VENOM controller is limp-happy it seems in many cases.

 

[KenricGTS]

I live a mile high hope that does'nt happen to me

 

[Viperless]

... but the VENOM controller is limp-happy it seems in many cases.

Very limp-happy!

 

[MY600HP]

First, I would question the people that gave you this information. On the Venom, the baro pressure sensor is on the circuit board of the module and it updates all the time - doesn't matter if you are at WOT or anywhere else. So, you can't change or "relearn" the baro sensor or reading by doing anything but changing the module.

Second, there is not a limp-out condition that will stall or kill the car, that wouldn't be very safe or very smart would it? If your car died, something else is wrong like a loss of power or a ground issue. Limping out will limit the engine to 2400 rpm but it will not kill it.

Third, was the check engine light on or on and flashing? Was the ETC lamp on? Is your car stock or modified?

I really don't think you have discovered some sort of altitude issue that the Dodge boys didn't find. Trust me; they spent plenty of time and miles in the mountains at all driving styles and conditions. You have something else wrong; let us know when you find it.

 

[J&R3xV10]

I have never experienced this issue the way you describe it, however, in my 3500 while towing cross country to VOI 10 and back (with the 08 nestled in its trailer) I had the lights and warnings come on when crossing through Colorado. The easy fix was just to turn the truck off at the nearest rest stop, wait a minute and restart. When I got home I had my dealer check things out and they said the same thing Dan posted above.

 

[Coloviper]

Any hoped up vehicles I have owned here in Colorado that have caused issues have been when you are driving above 12,000 ft (over some of the passes). The problem almost unanimoulsy in all of them is that the O2 sensor readings are not mapped for readings above 12,000 ft. Hell my 99 S281SC Saleen left me to jump start it at 13,000 ft when I went over a pass here and shut the car off to take pictures. Car would not start because the O2 sensor readings were outside of the mapped program.

My suggestion is if you are driving through Colorado, even if it goes into Limp mode, do not shut the car off until you are back at a lower elevation like 10,000 ft or under. Jump starting a car and poping the clutch at at 13,000 ft pass is not fun.

Years ago cars shipped to Colorado had to have special programming for the elevation interal data maps.

Those passing through on I70 will probably not experience any issues. Get off the beaten path and it might happen.

Just food for thought.

 

[TheMilkman]

Updated info.

I took the Viper up outside of Boulder this last weekend and had it go into limp mode again. Oh joy of joys.

This time I think it was possibly driving style over the BAP/MAP stuff. I was cruising along at low RPM's (1500-2000) to save gas and to keep it tame as the wife was with my this time. I got the flashing check engine light and just pulled over, sat a few seconds and restarted and continued on our way. The CEL light has not come off, but it didn't go back into limp-mode the rest of the drive.

I read on the forums that 08's might have some sort of issue with driving at low RPM for some distance. In the moutains here, stuck behind a slow mover going down hill for say 20 miles and you end up with low RPM's and the fast change in altitude probably doesn't help either.

The details as someone asked.
2008 - stock no mods.
Recently replace PCM, Oil Temp sensor, air intake sensor, and BAP sensor. (Probably just the dealer making guesses at the time - it's free so what the hey).
No lightening bolts this time, so I don't think it's electrical.
I pulled the codes with the key ON/OFF trick and got P0196 & P0197. A search on these didn't turn anything up in the forums and I haven't found the Rossetta Stone of code translations yet.

I'll update if I ever find out if it's just my car or if this truely could be an issue for others.

 

[Coloviper]

P0196 is a "Saving Gas" code (don't do that)
P0197 is a "Keeping It Tame" code (don't do that either)

Sorry I don't have my decoder ring on me either. Surely the dealership can figure it out. Say I found some good news as Glenn and most of the crew that were abandoned at the Burt Parker Dodge Fiat closure, ended up at Broadway Dodge. That is good news. I took my snake over there for some much needed maintenance and to have them replace the bearings in my rear end as it was whinning badly. Yep warranty, and picked up by Dodge. If anyone can figure out your issue, it is Glenn. Hope it works out.

 

[V10SpeedLuvr]

I haven't found the Rossetta Stone of code translations yet.

Google, the Rosetta Stone of everything

Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)

 

[TheMilkman]

I did try Google, but didn't realize at the time that the codes were standard for all cars and not specific for the Viper.

So the codes I have are
P0196 Engine Oil Temperature Sensor Range/Performance
P0197 Engine Oil Temperature Sensor Low

So, my oil temp is too low? Is that an issue really?

The gauges all checked out for oil Temp and pressure when the CEL lit up, I like to check those things now. Seems like I could have been at a temp of 180 and the engine wanted it more like 200-220. Next with my luck I'll get a CEL for my coolant being too cool and my bumper fluid registering low.

Now if I could just reset the CEL light. Hoping it turns itself off soon. I do plan on getting all new M-1 oil change in Sept before I drive to VOI, just incase anyone is thinking oil change.

 

[J&R3xV10]

Updated info.

I took the Viper up outside of Boulder this last weekend and had it go into limp mode again. Oh joy of joys.

This time I think it was possibly driving style over the BAP/MAP stuff. I was cruising along at low RPM's (1500-2000) to save gas and to keep it tame as the wife was with my this time. I got the flashing check engine light and just pulled over, sat a few seconds and restarted and continued on our way. The CEL light has not come off, but it didn't go back into limp-mode the rest of the drive.

I read on the forums that 08's might have some sort of issue with driving at low RPM for some distance. In the moutains here, stuck behind a slow mover going down hill for say 20 miles and you end up with low RPM's and the fast change in altitude probably doesn't help either.

The details as someone asked.
2008 - stock no mods.
Recently replace PCM, Oil Temp sensor, air intake sensor, and BAP sensor. (Probably just the dealer making guesses at the time - it's free so what the hey).
No lightening bolts this time, so I don't think it's electrical.
I pulled the codes with the key ON/OFF trick and got P0196 & P0197. A search on these didn't turn anything up in the forums and I haven't found the Rossetta Stone of code translations yet.

I'll update if I ever find out if it's just my car or if this truely could be an issue for others.

Driving an 08 at 1500-2000 RPM for long distances is not a problem. I drive most of the time in that range when taking longer trips with the viper. 6th gear @ 65 is right about that range

 

[Dan Cragin]

I have had 2 customers with this issue here in California when coming down from the local mountains, extended decel for long times and a big altitude change resulted in a check engine light and "limp in condition". The map is used for barometric pressure change and on the new cars its more sensitive. Most map sensor reads Baro on key on start-up but as Dan stated these new controllers are very sensitive and with a restart a big change in altitude could be an issue. Stop at rest stop!

Hope this helps.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I have had 2 customers with this issue here in California when coming down from the local mountains, extended decel for long times and a big altitude change resulted in a check engine light and "limp in condition". The map is used for barometric pressure change and on the new cars its more sensitive. Most map sensor reads Baro on key on start-up but as Dan stated these new controllers are very sensitive and with a restart a big change in altitude could be an issue. Stop at rest stop!

Hope this helps.

Hey Dan,

Any chance you read the DTC's on those cars? Whats odd is that this SOUNDS like a Baro related problem, but the codes shown above are Oil Temp related? I am wondering if by chance yours showed the same thing? Perhaps some kind of a "ghost in the machine" going on here? As MY600HP said, if the VENOM has Baro on the board, it wouldnt be affected by Key-On-MAP-BAP... but a programming error that only comes out during certain Baro conditions would certainly be an oddity.

 

[ViperGTS]

I drove several times across the Alps with my 2008 (mopar ecu) and never had an issue with the height.

Last time a supercharged F430 was with us and he had real trouble at higher altitudes!

 

[MY600HP]

Updated info.

I took the Viper up outside of Boulder this last weekend and had it go into limp mode again. Oh joy of joys.

This time I think it was possibly driving style over the BAP/MAP stuff. I was cruising along at low RPM's (1500-2000) to save gas and to keep it tame as the wife was with my this time. I got the flashing check engine light and just pulled over, sat a few seconds and restarted and continued on our way. The CEL light has not come off, but it didn't go back into limp-mode the rest of the drive.

I read on the forums that 08's might have some sort of issue with driving at low RPM for some distance. In the moutains here, stuck behind a slow mover going down hill for say 20 miles and you end up with low RPM's and the fast change in altitude probably doesn't help either.

The details as someone asked.
2008 - stock no mods.
Recently replace PCM, Oil Temp sensor, air intake sensor, and BAP sensor. (Probably just the dealer making guesses at the time - it's free so what the hey).
No lightening bolts this time, so I don't think it's electrical.
I pulled the codes with the key ON/OFF trick and got P0196 & P0197. A search on these didn't turn anything up in the forums and I haven't found the Rossetta Stone of code translations yet.

I'll update if I ever find out if it's just my car or if this truely could be an issue for others.

A flashing CEL means only one thing - you limped out for misfire detection which was probably your problem all along. It is not a specific issue of concern for others or an altitude specific problem. The misfire condition will reset after every key cycle (needs to be off for a few seconds) so unless it happens again, it will run normally. The CEL light will not clear for several (many) more run cycles (and will not flash) as long as it runs without further issue. Not sure why you don't have a misfire code present, I'd ask a dealer to take a look for it. Could you have a bad plug or plug wire? Maybe a connector not quite latched or a ground issue? There were some bad crank/cam sensor terminals on the harness side, maybe you lost crank signal momentarily and that is what killed the car as you mentioned previously.

The oil temp sensor faults may also indicate something going on with the wiring harness (these faults will turn the CEL and ETC lamps on becuase it effects the engine torque model but they do not flash). You mentioned the dealer replaced the ECU, is it possible they didn't perform a proper learn for the crank edges (I doubt it since the problem was also there before the ECU was replaced but something to try). Not an easy problem to diagnose but hopefully you have a good Viper tech! If not, I'd hope perhaps the SRT guys could take a look at it at VOI (I know that is a way off but don't know what else to tell you). Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[TCurtner]

A flashing CEL means only one thing - you limped out for misfire detection which was probably your problem all along. It is not a specific issue of concern for others or an altitude specific problem. The misfire condition will reset after every key cycle (needs to be off for a few seconds) so unless it happens again, it will run normally. The CEL light will not clear for several (many) more run cycles (and will not flash) as long as it runs without further issue. Not sure why you don't have a misfire code present, I'd ask a dealer to take a look for it. Could you have a bad plug or plug wire? Maybe a connector not quite latched or a ground issue? There were some bad crank/cam sensor terminals on the harness side, maybe you lost crank signal momentarily and that is what killed the car as you mentioned previously.

The oil temp sensor faults may also indicate something going on with the wiring harness (these faults will turn the CEL and ETC lamps on becuase it effects the engine torque model but they do not flash). You mentioned the dealer replaced the ECU, is it possible they didn't perform a proper learn for the crank edges (I doubt it since the problem was also there before the ECU was replaced but something to try). Not an easy problem to diagnose but hopefully you have a good Viper tech! If not, I'd hope perhaps the SRT guys could take a look at it at VOI (I know that is a way off but don't know what else to tell you). Hope this helps and good luck!

I followed this thread completely and studied all info/answers before I decided to jump in - I don't know if I'll add fuel or retardant to a fire, but when I spun at turn one Road Atlanta (I went in way too hot, and it was the first lap after green flag and tires weren't ready - left rear tire hit the rumble strip, then grass then car all four back on), my snake went into this mode I think (but included bucking, snorting, and several near stalls. go to: Road Atlanta, Aug 2009 and scroll along bottom pic strip, you'll find the evidence) - I thought I'd never get off track and would need towed. However, got to far right and limped to the infield turnoff in turn 5, managed to get it up the hill a bit and turned around. Simply shut her down, got out and did an inspection, couldn't find anything wrong, did a restart, and was back on track just fine for the rest of the day. Call me irresponsible, but I never had another incident (for thousands of miles) and chalked it up to a 'mad snake' or more likely a confused PCM due to the abrupt transitions, fuel level, and bouncing from the rumble strips/off track. Again, after restart all was fine for rest of laps, though I drove very conservatively and scanned gauges regularly. Just for the record...

 

[Jsethen]

I just asked about this happening to me last night. Going up a hill and went to accelerate and CEL came on flashing and I thought for sure I would need to be towed. Limped to the dodge dealer and figured i'd try a restart and fired right back up with no issues.