Gen V Autoweek

[AJ usmc]

Who is the cry baby now? Not my fault if all the mags think it is a crude car with the interior of a 1990s minivan???

whos crying? anyways... i love the crudeness, rawness, and ruggedness of the earlier vipers, and i hope the new viper keeps with the later two of the three. i dont need lux and i'd take fabric seats over leather any day. yall wont hate me if i put realtree or mossy oak seat-covers over the nappa leather will yall? haha , but that's a personal choice and prefrence. what other car can you smoke the clutch and it's all still good, i think the brittish top gear talked about this on a red gen 3 and may have been the first compleatly objective reveiw i seen. if the new breed comes with your attitude, i dont want them in the "exclusive group" that im fixin to join. it sounds to me your still undecided and i think you said that somewair too. i've seen mag avertisements wair you can rent an exotic or super car which may help you in your "cross shopping". who knows, maybe you are a viper guy, but right now it aint showing...

bobpantex- the last part sounds like why i joined the usmc and why im getting a viper other then having a childhood obsession with it.

 

[Torquemonster]

So I hate to bite, but now you have me very confused:

1) Everyone I have met that have actually driven a viper on a track have been super impressed. Can't believe how they handle, can't believe the torque, etc. So, I have a very difficult time believing you have driven a Gen3 or 4 on the track. Take your C63 to the track, run a 5 laps, then jump in a Gen3/4 viper. I can tell you which one you will not be going out in for the rest of the day... brakes, handling, will be worlds appart.
2)Interior - I never mentioned the Porsche as they are extreme hi-quality and in my opinion, probably the highest quality sports cars. I was only referring to the C-class which is loaded w/plastic. It is really a $35k interior put into a $60k car which is very dissappointing for a Mercedes. GTR interior is just ok, but definatly better than past vipers.
3)AC? - never had a problem on that front
4)Traction on dry pavement - yes, you are dealing with a car with huge power and no electronic aids. ie, imagine driving the C63 with traction control completely disabled and mashing the pedal, you will have a handfull and actually much less controllable. Now drive it in the wet that way.
5)Quality - at the end of the day, it was a dodge where they put the money into performance. lame carpets, radio's and switches from $25k cars was part of the game. Some ok with it, but I prefer the GenV approach and really the approach chrysler is making all up in that category.

Lastly, you have to stop reading magazines as the bible. drive the cars and then decide, but if truly interested in the track, then only compare actually on the track. Whole different car and actually to the point now where I don't enjoy the viper much on the street because the hardest you can drive on the street is like the laimest cool-down lap on the track.

Good post. I like what you said and the way you put it together.

In the end a Viper is an emotive and personal purchase. For some the car just grabs them and they have to have one, so they make it happen. As for me, I do not need a committee to help me decide.

 

[bluestreak]

So I went back and watched the video again to see if I missed something here. I don't think so. i don't understand how you make the jump to Ralph is denigrating current Viper owners with what he said. Two direct quotes from the video strike me and they don't at all sound like they are bashing the GEN IV.

Graham: Just before the two minute mark. "The old Viper was a great super car but it lacked a modern interior and really one that had the best materials."

Ralph: Just around 4:35 "The old car FEELS a little more soft and flaccid. A little more of a handful to drive."

Nothing here to me seems out of line. If this is gonna cause you to not get another viper then thats your prerogative. I am a three time viper owner and am really triyng to figure out how to put the forth one in my garage.

Agree, Ralph is certainly talking about chassis dynamics. The Gen III and IV are both rather soft and for good reason. The vast majority of the people that buy them have no idea how to control one. So making it softer makes it more forgiving, slower to react, and safer which is needed considering no TC related nannies. With the new TC systems SRT now have more freedom to give it quicker responses because the car can now assist drivers in over their heads. We've seen plenty of "Viper crashes for no good reason" threads from guys just flooring it and ending up in a ditch when they can't control the power. Just because you bought a Viper doesn't mean you are ********. Learn to control one, then talk. Most Vipers will live life as garage queens anyways, so 77 lbs isn't going to slow you down driving to the end of the driveway and back (neither are 20's or a stereo system).

It looks to me like the GTS almost crashed into the rail doing a burnout! Yikes!!! Not what i expected to see! TC must have been off ...

I doubt this is the old tech TC. It's more of a stability control that will not interfere until it thinks you are out of control. As long as you don't lift, or get too much yaw while the wheels are spinning, you can spin them all day. Lifting the throttle is telling the car you need help at which point it intervenes. Much better that way (especially on the track)

 

[DMan]

^^^^ agreed. My gen2 was completey unforgiving, I'm man enough to say I spun that car numerous times on the edge, it was planted or it was 2 feet in .. not much middle ground. The gen3 felt slower but was faster, smooth and much more predictable, still a biter when pushed to the edge, I tokk a couple rides in that too. The gen4 amazed me, and I attribute it to the differential. I can tokyo drift over steer that thing around like I'd never dream of doing on my previous vipers, it so settle the rear and feels like you half have a stability traction system at play, allowing for plenty of input time and feel. I'm still amazed how the gen4 feels on the edge, it's very forgiving by comparison. The gen5 I believe will be amazing in this regard, with and without the assist electronics.

 

[SADVIPER]

lol this has really got under the skin of some folks
let's end it please, dear emericr,

for me its not about the 'FHACTS!' search through your soul, and see if u feel that bond, maybe as Bobpantax put it.
in the end the Viper will long stand and will always have those special lovers. special car bonds will always be based on passion rather than facts.

 

[emericr]

Thanks for the track times. It does not point out if it is a regular Viper or an ACR but that is a good start. I will just point out that the Viper did the Top gear track in 1:28 (was very wet) and a 996 911 GT3 (very wet) did it in 1:27.
I know that we could be here for days discussing track times and different days, different drivers will lead different results. My choice of words were not the best (like the 47%) and I ruffled some feathers. My apologies.

All of the recent responses were what I believe a forum is all about but again that is my opinion only. I would not be here spending hours responding and arguing with you guys if I was not bitten by the GenV snake.

SADVIPER: I could not agree more that it is not about all the facts but passion and the reason why I am here or locally talking to my dealer to meet people that will allow me to drive the car for my final decision.
For the record, I never drove a Viper on the track. I drove them on the streets because as previously stated this will be where my car will spend 99.9% pf the time.

Looking forward meeting you guys soon at Viper meet. Peace out.

 

[patgilm]

emerir,

I think you got under the skin of most people here because like many people out there that don't know any better, it appears from your posts that you think the Viper is a straight line car only and is not good on the track which is completely false. Unfortunately many uninformed people out there think the same way as you. The Viper was made for the track first and foremost and to say that it can't hang with some of the other cars with no real basis is unfair. What is fair is that it takes a pretty good driver that knows what he is doing to get good track times as opposed to a more technologically advanced car like the GTR that grandma can jump into and turn in a good time. Many people here are passionate about Vipers and understand what the Viper is (or was) all about, a crude no nonsense race car, and that is why some people are questioning you.

 

[SADVIPER]

"a crude no nonsense race car"
THIS
Don't worry emericr,we wish you make the right desicion for you whether it is buy or not buy.

 

[05Commemorative]

Thanks for the track times. It does not point out if it is a regular Viper or an ACR but that is a good start. I will just point out that the Viper did the Top gear track in 1:28 (was very wet) and a 996 911 GT3 (very wet) did it in 1:27.
I know that we could be here for days discussing track times and different days, different drivers will lead different results. My choice of words were not the best (like the 47%) and I ruffled some feathers. My apologies.

All of the recent responses were what I believe a forum is all about but again that is my opinion only. I would not be here spending hours responding and arguing with you guys if I was not bitten by the GenV snake.

SADVIPER: I could not agree more that it is not about all the facts but passion and the reason why I am here or locally talking to my dealer to meet people that will allow me to drive the car for my final decision.
For the record, I never drove a Viper on the track. I drove them on the streets because as previously stated this will be where my car will spend 99.9% pf the time.

Looking forward meeting you guys soon at Viper meet. Peace out.

I had a buddy that had a Gen3 Viper for two years before I purchased one. I rode in it as a passenger many times. I thought it was good, but not super excited. Then we started to do some driver training at the track. I was in whatever the school provided and he was in the viper. Then at the end of the 3rd day of doing this, he says "take it out and see what you think". Two laps in, I was hooked. At speed, it was a different animal. Acceleration, brakes, g's in corners, you name it. When pushed harder even more amazing. Yep, it will bite you, but learning where that limit is, well it is a special place of skill, respect and excitement. I have since driven many 911's, GTR's from friends and none have created those same feelings. The GTR is fast out of the box, but would be sold within a year (Like most are) because "it is very boring and really allows you to have very low skill, run the wrong lines and get away with it over and over" 911 is a very nice "precision" machine, quality super high, but does lack some of the excitement for me.

Again, each his/her own, but from my personal experience, I never truly appreciated the car until I was on the track with it. In fact I would encourage every Viper owner to go through the experience of a track day. You will find yourself driving the speed limit on the streets after because it is just boring, but live for those track days to experience what the car is capable of. ("this is how I knew you never have driven on the track because all of the cars sins (has many) are forgiven at the track")

 

[SnakeBitten]

Emericr, I compiled a list of showroom stock Vipers at various tracks around the USA. On most of the tracks on my list below a Viper and a Porsche, ZR1 or GTR has run that track as well and the respective times are available in those links. Check out especially the Willow Springs link and you will see how close a non ACR Viper and even a GTS is to the GTR's time.

Don't let peoples posts make you hate the car and heap the venom you been spewing towards it. Track times don't lie but people do. All the stuff you heard about Vipers not handling etc is myth. A car that can't handle can't post those lap times below. Also please notice I didn't not include the Nurburgring lap times as it is overused [incredible nonetheless] and people seem to think that's the only track the Viper has been dominant on. I hope these facts help you in your decision.

VIR - http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/virginia_international_raceway.html

Laguna Seca - http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

Willow Springs - http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow_springs.html

Grattan Raceway - http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/grattan_raceway.html

Buttonwillow - http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/buttonwillow_configuration_13.html

El Toro - http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/el_toro.html

Streets of Willow - http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow_springs_-_streets_of_willow_17_miles.html

Miller Motorsports Park - http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/miller_motorsports_park.html

 

[viperbilliam]

emericr,

I have owned and driven much of the competition you talk about. I have put 30K miles on my Gen III since new. A/C still blows colder than anything I have experienced (but the unwanted hot vent air is a problem) and the seats (for support, especially hard driving) are unequaled (if you're the right size). Reliability has been far superior to the Vettes I have owned. Rattles - there are some, not good for this pricepoint. I have found the handling, steering response, and shifting superior to much of the competition. Refinement, yes much of the competition is better.

You do represent the new type of buyer Ralph is trying to bring in our fold. Please buy one and we'll let you harp on its superiority to the previous generations all day long. I don't agree with the "soft and flaccid" comment that apparently Ralph made; I don't understand it because the Viper can be anything but that. But, nobody's perfect - not even Ralph.

 

[Baked]

I wasn't able to make it to VOI12 so I have no experience with the Gen V other than seeing the clay model at VOI 11. I also won't talk track times etc as that has been done.

As was mentioned earlier, you can either have a bond with a car or you don't. It doesn't mean it's the fastest car, best interior, etc, it's just a feeling. I've had a Gen 2 GTS for about 7 years and love the car. Every time I get in it, it puts a smile on my face and it never gets old.
This past spring, I picked up an 2004 911 turbo with the X50 package. I kept it for the summer and have already sold it. I wanted to try the car and was glad I did. Problem was, it felt just like a car. I didn't look at it and smile, I didn't drive it and smile, it just didn't have any personality, which the viper does. I have no interest in a number of other great cars because I know I would feel the same way about them as I did about the Porsche.
It really comes down to that, what car makes you happy. As you can tell from the members here, the viper does it for them, whether it's on the track or on the street, the car just has something about it that most other cars don't that makes it different and makes you really enjoy owning it.

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

Emericr,

I am speaking for myself when I say this, but I was amazed when I first took my car to the track. All I ever heard was how they didn't handle and how bad the braking was. I am not sure where this all started but it was simply not true. The only thing I can say is that from that point on, the only thing I wanted to do is buy another one. Vipers are about passion for harnessing that power, the satisfaction you get from doing so and knowing that when you are drving one that you are doing so and not the car. The ole phrase about being "snakebit" to me means a totally different thing then what it normally means. To me it means being bitten and then being hooked so to speak.

And as for the Viper crowd, well I have never met a group of people more passionate about their cars. All you have to do is go to a Viper meet and you will feel the excitement and emotion. I guarantee a larger percentage of owners track their cars than do any other car make. What other car club sponsors/encourages their owners to take their car to the track?

If I would were you, I would try and get a ride from someone at a track and see just how the car handles. And then tell yourself how incredible that track experience will be when the Gen 5 come out. If the Viper is a fit for you, then great. If it is not, then that is equally great. Some like chocolate and some like caramel. To each their own. What you should do if you want a true opinion is go and send *** to the new owners who have new threads. All in all, bare with us though because we are very passionate about our cars.

 

[bluestreak]

What the viper needs is some vocal amatuers to go out in stock non acr vipers and lay some times down. The acr has dominated but the non acr has hardly any representation. Car and Driver has a lightning lap from 07 but the time is slower than gtr gt3 zo6 and Ferrari. Its also 9 seconds slower than the 2010 acr, supporting emircr's claim. That is ridiculous. Hopefully the gen v gts gets more love than that on the handling end.Also keep in mind that the zr1 and z07 are within a few ticks with no big aero. There is certainly room for improvement even on the acr because the chances of it maintaining that advantage without aero or if the other cars had it is slim.

 

[v10viperbox]

What the viper needs is some vocal amatuers to go out in stock non acr vipers and lay some times down. The acr has dominated but the non acr has hardly any representation. Car and Driver has a lightning lap from 07 but the time is slower than gtr gt3 zo6 and Ferrari. Its also 9 seconds slower than the 2010 acr, supporting emircr's claim. That is ridiculous. Hopefully the gen v gts gets more love than that on the handling end.Also keep in mind that the zr1 and z07 are within a few ticks with no big aero. There is certainly room for improvement even on the acr because the chances of it maintaining that advantage without aero or if the other cars had it is slim.

guess I am in the minority but

SRT-10 = 911 (Non S), Standard Corvette Fighter.
ACR = GT3, Z06

The cost difference between the ACR and the SRT-10 is so miniscule compared to the Porsche or Ferrari world as well. So track guys just naturally get the ACR, so less standard car times on tracks. When I got my GT3 it was I want to say 20-25K more then a 911 S and 35K or so more then a 911 which is a big deal, the Ferrari Scud packages are even worse.

I daily drover my 06 Viper for 18 months, it was a wonderful car for this. I could simple not do this in my old GT3 with track engine transmission mounts. Just different cars for different folks and uses.

 

[bluestreak]

Not really IMO.

SRT 10 - 911 Turbo, GT3 RS, GT3, Z06, F430
ACR = GT2 RS, ZR-1, Scuderia


Having to compare it to a base 911, base GT3, base Corvette with 600 hp and monster tires is a fail in handling. With it's specs, it should be able to be close to or match the ACR's competition and the ACR demolish them.

 

[DMan]

Well I have two reference points on the 911S, one, Motor Trend, they tested it side by side With the Mustang GT500 and the Porsche was .5 secs behind at Laguna. Considering I track my GT500 and have driven around two 911S cars I'd say that's about right. Since I track the GT500 and the viper, I can say the viper is a whole level above the GT500 and by level I mean significantly better. So the SRT10 is by no means on par with a 911S, just no way.

But we're kinda stuck on gen2/3 debate in the gen5 forum, lol, I guess till we get perf numbers on the gen5 it's all we can do.

 

[bluestreak]

DMan, what year is your GT500?

 

[DMan]

DMan, what year is your GT500?

2011, 587rwhp now.

Here's a pic.

You must be registered for see images attach

Here's a vid, when it was bone stock & before I broke my helmet cam on a bike trackday, doh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oXPUF4kPSo

 

[bluestreak]

Nice looking GT500. I really want one of those myself as a DD.

 

[DMan]

Nice looking GT500. I really want one of those myself as a DD.

Thanks, I daily drive mine, except in bad weather, truck for that. I've done a viper/cobra stang combo in the garage for yrs now, I find it gives me the best of both worlds, with great bang for the buck. And the communities for both cars are wonderful enthusiasts, so it's all good.

 

[HLANDIS]

All this typing about soft and flacid and stiff and soft seems a bit peculiar to me. Maybe SRT needs a ****** edition Viper.

 

[Stealth]

No, not really either.

ACR is essentially a lower top speed aero package. GT3 and GT2 have a different drivetrain. SRT-10 Coupe has the same motor as the ACR and a higher top speed, and is very competitive with a ZR1.

Not really IMO.

SRT 10 - 911 Turbo, GT3 RS, GT3, Z06, F430
ACR = GT2 RS, ZR-1, Scuderia


Having to compare it to a base 911, base GT3, base Corvette with 600 hp and monster tires is a fail in handling. With it's specs, it should be able to be close to or match the ACR's competition and the ACR demolish them.

 

[bluestreak]

No, not really either.

ACR is essentially a lower top speed aero package. GT3 and GT2 have a different drivetrain. SRT-10 Coupe has the same motor as the ACR and a higher top speed, and is very competitive with a ZR1.

I'm just comparing relative model levels. GT3 and GT2 have slightly different versions of the same drivetrain. We are not talking about top speed. We are talking about the track and handling. The SRT-10 coupe is NOT competitive with the ZR-1. Not only that the ACR has more than just aero, I don't think the gear revisions or adjustable suspension is available on the SRT-10 coupe.