Gen V dyno - New Vid

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Makara

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You can use 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th but for a dyno pull - but why would you tune the car for 1st gear if your aim is to maximize performance in 3rd? Likewise, why would you tune in 4th gear if you rarely shift into 4th gear for your style of driving? Are viper owners so shallow that the only reason they dyno their cars is for bragging rights on threads like this rather than to improve performance?

You said that dyno pulls are should be done in 3rd gear because with the rear end, that gives the closest to a 1:1 ratio at the tires. That is so laughably incorrect and and when it was pointed out to you, you insisted that most cars are 1:1 in 3rd gear, which is not true or relavent to a discussion of dynoing a viper. Now you are changing it around to being more interested in maximizing performance in 3rd rather than take the typical viper owner route and just aim for the largest number possible. This is also shedding a lot of light on your understanding of what is going on. Maybe you should stop trying to rationalize why what you think/thought was correct and try listening and learning what is really going on. You will be a better person for it in the end. There is nothing foolish about being incorrect, but insisting that your mistakes are correct because of ego just makes you look like a fool.




I know right! What's with these "dyno experts" coming in here acting like their word is doctrine. Tuning a vehicle on a dyno is more art than it is science. If it were purely scientific there would be little or no discrepancies between the results you get with the various ECU tuners out there.

Are you saying that a dyno defies the rules of science? That could shed some light on your humerus theories on how it works. It is a science, follows the rules of physics, and there is no magic about it. The variables which are not typically controlled because of logistics absolutely affect the outcome and adhere to physics, not black magic that is inexplicable.



Sure, but it doesn't translate quite so linearly to actual performance. Since the power band of any automobile engine falls withing a predefined RPM range, the revs that you lose with taller gearing are not recuperated even though "technically" no power is ever given up.

Let's use my 3.00 and 4.00 theoretical final drive gears:

With 3.00 @ 6,200 RPM using direct drive (1:1) wheel speed is 2,067 RPM.
Same with 4.00 gears in rear axle, wheel speed is 1,550 RPM.

You can plug the wheel RPM into the HP equation to figure out what the theoretical WHP would be:

(Estimating Viper has ~500 ft-lbs of torque at the crank @ 6,200 RPM)

3.00 Gears (2,067 RPM * 1500 ft-lbs) / 5252 = 590
4.00 Gears (1,550 RPM * 2000 ft-lbs) / 5252 = 590

Even though no power is lost, you give up 25% of your revs because you are limited by the 6,200 RPM redline of the engine. In "real world" driving this means that taller gearing reduces the top speed in each gear as well as the overall top speed of the car, but the additional torque you gain allows you to reach the redline quicker thus making the car "feel" faster while driving it.

In drag racing this would mean lower trap speeds and possibly higher ETs (as long as you do not gain an extra shift due to gearing), while in road racing it would mean that your car is not going to pull as hard and you'll have to shift more often. You would start to get counterproductive effects if the taller gearing required you to shift into a higher gear at lower speeds, dropping the engine out of its powerband due to running out of revs in the previous gear.

That was a whole lot of wasted typing as this has nothing to do with dyno numbers changing because of parasitic loss from a different ration. Thanks for explaining that shorter gears change the way a car performs though. Good info to have! You are just going in circles, sometimes contradicting yourself.

Seacrest OUT!!!! I mean it this time.
 
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Nine Ball

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You can use 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th but for a dyno pull - but why would you tune the car for 1st gear if your aim is to maximize performance in 3rd? Likewise, why would you tune in 4th gear if you rarely shift into 4th gear for your style of driving? Are viper owners so shallow that the only reason they dyno their cars is for bragging rights on threads like this rather than to improve performance?

Last time I checked, my ECM tune didn't change because of what gear I was running. Doing dyno runs in 4th isn't a right or wrong thing, it is just the most accepted practice. Assuming 4th is typically the 1.00 ratio gearing. Just sort of a way for dyno operators to build a nice database to compare different vehicles, while trying to keep variables in gearing to a minimum. The other reason for using a higher gear is to get a broader spectrum of data points to easier analyze the tuning map. Try tuning a 1,000 rwhp vehicle in 1st gear, and let me know how that works out for you in 4th gear. If anything, your statement about preferring 3rd because you only use 3rd is just silly. Your dyno graph and logs will be smoother and cleaner during a longer 4th gear pull. That means your car will also perform better in 1, 2, and 3. Also, the longer smooth pull will allow the engine sensors to report more stable data, which also makes it easier to tune. So no, 4th isn't a requirement - it just makes more sense, and is the most common practice.

Here is a dyno graph showing 4 consecutive gears. Why wouldn't a tuner want to use the broad spectrum of data and smoother curve in 4th to create a fuel and timing map?

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Now tell us, what are these magical 3rd gear racecars you speak of? The longer you wait to reveal this expertise, the more we are thinking you are just full of crap. I can't wait until you tell us it was some kind of go-kart or other weak-powered contraption. Maybe in that vehicle, 3rd gear took 5 minutes to make a pull?
 

PeerBlock

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Now you are changing it around to being more interested in maximizing performance in 3rd rather than take the typical viper owner route and just aim for the largest number possible. This is also shedding a lot of light on your understanding of what is going on.

Uhh...if you were paying attention you'd probably pick up on the fact that different gears have different ratios which effectively place a different load on the engine. Meanwhile, you're still dead certain that the additional heat is causing a "parasitic loss".

Maybe you should stop trying to rationalize why what you think/thought was correct and try listening and learning what is really going on. You will be a better person for it in the end. There is nothing foolish about being incorrect, but insisting that your mistakes are correct because of ego just makes you look like a fool.

Seems like you need to take your own advice. lol

Are you saying that a dyno defies the rules of science? That could shed some light on your humerus theories on how it works. It is a science, follows the rules of physics, and there is no magic about it. The variables which are not typically controlled because of logistics absolutely affect the outcome and adhere to physics, not black magic that is inexplicable.

It's the variables that make it imprecise. Dyno tuning is an analog process. It's not like digital where every copy is exactly the same as the source. Cars are also different - do you really believe all cars of the same make/model will dyno exactly the same?

That was a whole lot of wasted typing as this has nothing to do with dyno numbers changing because of parasitic loss from a different ration. Thanks for explaining that shorter gears change the way a car performs though. Good info to have! You are just going in circles, sometimes contradicting yourself.

Seacrest OUT!!!! I mean it this time.

It's not a parasitic loss; it's a mechanical loss. A parasitic loss would be an additional load placed on the engine that wasn't there before, like turning a supercharger.

Thanks for cutting some time out of your brony-con circuit to sit at the adults table with us and explain the intricacies of heat and parasitic losses.

Last time I checked, my ECM tune didn't change because of what gear I was running.

ECU = engine control unit. The gear you run in changes the load on the engine...pretty simple concept.

Doing dyno runs in 4th isn't a right or wrong thing, it is just the most accepted practice.

Apparently not. You just seem to believe it is which is the crux of your problem. You're filling in a lot of what you don't know with baseless assumptions.

Assuming 4th is typically the 1.00 ratio gearing. Just sort of a way for dyno operators to build a nice database to compare different vehicles, while trying to keep variables in gearing to a minimum.

Yet all cars are unique and wasn't one of my points something like using dyno numbers to compare cars being a bad idea? Yes, it still is a bad idea. It's no different then believing that you can look at a car's rated HP and nothing else, then accurately predict its lap time.

The other reason for using a higher gear is to get a broader spectrum of data points to easier analyze the tuning map.

This is correct. Maybe you're finally catching on...

Try tuning a 1,000 rwhp vehicle in 1st gear, and let me know how that works out for you in 4th gear.

Pretty sure I said that the cars I did tune were done in 3rd. Maybe it's just me but if I thought 1st was the better option wouldn't I have said that?

If anything, your statement about preferring 3rd because you only use 3rd is just silly. Your dyno graph and logs will be smoother and cleaner during a longer 4th gear pull. That means your car will also perform better in 1, 2, and 3. Also, the longer smooth pull will allow the engine sensors to report more stable data, which also makes it easier to tune. So no, 4th isn't a requirement - it just makes more sense, and is the most common practice.

And this is where you start to get things wrong again. The whole point of tuning a car on a dyno is to optimize the HP/TQ curves for the type of driving you plan to do. As long as the dyno has enough time to capture the data the graph will be accurate enough to work with, and you'd make changes until it's as "smooth and clean" as you want for gear you're optimizing.

No, it doesn't "make more sense" to prefer 4th and it's not "common practice". It makes more sense to you and it's your practice. Let's be clear on that.

Here is a dyno graph showing 4 consecutive gears. Why wouldn't a tuner want to use the broad spectrum of data and smoother curve in 4th to create a fuel and timing map?

Seems like you're not the guy to talk to if the goal is to get the best tune possible. Why bother with an ECU if we're going to use static fuel maps for all gears, with no regard as to how the engine performs under the varying loads presented in each gear? Maybe we should replace ECUs with a punch card. Isn't that smoother to work with than a computer? Plus you can use scrape ice off your car if you're ever stuck in a snowstorm.

Now tell us, what are these magical 3rd gear racecars you speak of? The longer you wait to reveal this expertise, the more we are thinking you are just full of crap. I can't wait until you tell us it was some kind of go-kart or other weak-powered contraption. Maybe in that vehicle, 3rd gear took 5 minutes to make a pull?

Wasn't this idiocy the same thing Jack said, confidently stating that all manual transmissions have a 1:1 drive. Oh, but I guess the SRT4 and Evo 8 and 9 are "go karts". I see.

Here's the thing - I'm not the guy trying to sell other members on dyno tunes or whatever it is you do. I have no reason to fib about my dyno tuning prowess and am only interested in getting insights into the Viper...you, on the other hand, kinda have to make it seem like you know what you're talking about since you expect people to give you money for your services.

Most of your response has amounted to little more than "that's how it's done because that's how I do it", claiming I am "wrong" for suggesting that there are other/better ways to do things.

Try tuning a car (any car) by optimizing it for the most frequently used gear rather than the one that gives you the prettiest graph. Don't worry, once you see that it's the better way you can say it was your idea.
 

mnc2886

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I have yet to see two consecutive posts argue a singular point. These posts are all over the place. Someone states a valid point and PeerBlock responds with something that hurts to read....

This thread ***** now.
 
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Nine Ball

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PeerBlock = all blah blah and zero content. Sort of like the Diet Coke of internet trolls.

ECU, ECM (Engine Control Module), PCM (Powertrain Control Module)

All the same thing. Different brands call them different acronyms. You are so dead set on correcting every line of a response, that your clueless behavior is grasping at straws (acronyms). LOL!

Tuning SRT-4 and EVO's must be impressive. Yawn. I was too busy pioneering LS1 related modifications, you know - engines with real power. I also built my own 1000+ rwhp Viper, so I do have some experieince in this field. Back to your SRT-4s, then.

:)

Tony
 

SADVIPER

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Overrated in terms of HP and Torque ratings? The dyno would have had to have been off by more than 20% for that to be a valid claim. The Gen 4 was a Honda S2000 with a V10 and weak sales proved it...I wouldn't go so far as to call it a legend so much as an exercise in what the Viper is not.
Wait WHaaaaa???!!! Gen IV was A Honda??? u high ???
A legend is not based on sales, it is based on performance. The ACR exceeded expectations on the ring.
Wait WHAAAA again u just said the Viper is not a legend??? Then it's me I must be high.
 

Jack B

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The answer to Peer Block's rants, build nothing, do nothing, but, read a lot. Peer (my Bro): while you were searching the web last night I ran a 10.xx quarter. My guess is you are used to 10 sec runs in the 1/8. There is a lot less danger running those slow legends, it ishard to get hurt when you turn 80 mph in the quarter.
 

VENOM V

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The answer to Peer Block's rants, build nothing, do nothing, but, read a lot. Peer (my Bro): while you were searching the web last night I ran a 10.xx quarter. My guess is you are used to 10 sec runs in the 1/8. There is a lot less danger running those slow legends, it ishard to get hurt when you turn 80 mph in the quarter.

This is a good segway to ending this stale thread. Jack, please tell me you ran in the 10's in your 2013. And start a new thread, give us the details.
 

PeerBlock

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PeerBlock = all blah blah and zero content. Sort of like the Diet Coke of internet trolls.

ECU, ECM (Engine Control Module), PCM (Powertrain Control Module)

All the same thing. Different brands call them different acronyms. You are so dead set on correcting every line of a response, that your clueless behavior is grasping at straws (acronyms). LOL!

Tuning SRT-4 and EVO's must be impressive. Yawn. I was too busy pioneering LS1 related modifications, you know - engines with real power. I also built my own 1000+ rwhp Viper, so I do have some experieince in this field. Back to your SRT-4s, then.

I quote that to make it easier for you to follow the flow of the conversation, seeing how easily you seem to get confused.

You seem to get butthurt pretty quick about being "corrected" but I was not intending to correct you so much as to explain what the ECU is...even though most people call the engine control unit the ECU. You said "tune didn't change because of what gear I was running." Right. A good tuner would change the tune that the ECU uses to maximize performance. You seem to be a lot more interested in maximizing the aesthetics of the chart.

I've been a part of the LS1 community for a long time and guess what - never heard of you - although there are so many ********** claiming to be LS1 tuning gods that it has become a business in itself. I remember seeing guys at the track with their "400 RWHP" heads/cam fbods expecting to cut 10s but failing to break into the 11s. Must be them fuzzy dyno numbers at work again. They need to add a "extended smoothing" feature that makes 400 RWHP read as 550 RWHP then we'll be onto something. I bet your 1000 whp viper blows people away when you roll up to the track and set up your billboard-sized dyno chart, and your mom is proud that you did it all by yourself. Hell, I'm proud of you man! Thanks for keeping it realistic.

The answer to Peer Block's rants, build nothing, do nothing, but, read a lot. Peer (my Bro): while you were searching the web last night I ran a 10.xx quarter. My guess is you are used to 10 sec runs in the 1/8. There is a lot less danger running those slow legends, it ishard to get hurt when you turn 80 mph in the quarter.

Nah my brudda man...I was too busy trying to find the 1:1 drive on my SRT-4. Any idea where it is hiding? Some guy on the forums told me that all manual transmissions have a 1:1 drive that bypasses the gearbox altogether. HELP! :D

BTW what did you run 10s with?
 

Steve M

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I've been a part of the LS1 community for a long time and guess what - never heard of you - although there are so many ********** claiming to be LS1 tuning gods that it has become a business in itself. I remember seeing guys at the track with their "400 RWHP" heads/cam fbods expecting to cut 10s but failing to break into the 11s. Must be them fuzzy dyno numbers at work again. They need to add a "extended smoothing" feature that makes 400 RWHP read as 550 RWHP then we'll be onto something. I bet your 1000 whp viper blows people away when you roll up to the track and set up your billboard-sized dyno chart, and your mom is proud that you did it all by yourself. Hell, I'm proud of you man! Thanks for keeping it realistic.

I'm not sure what "LS1 community" you've been a part of, but if you've ever been a member of (or visited) LS1Tech, you can thank Tony since he is one of the co-founders of it. It is arguably one of the best tech sites out there for the LS1.
 

PeerBlock

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I'm not sure what "LS1 community" you've been a part of, but if you've ever been a member of (or visited) LS1Tech, you can thank Tony since he is one of the co-founders of it. It is arguably one of the best tech sites out there for the LS1.

Ls1tech spawned out of a mass-exodus from ls1.com, and it is a good resource...but nobody really cares who "founded" the website - I sure don't, so I'm not sure what you are crediting this guy with since it's the members who take the time to post useful information that should be thanked.
 

09 Venom

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After only driving my G5 for 2 1/2 weeks I can tell you it is better than my G4 in every way possible. And when parked next to it, it makes the G4 look old and outdated...sorry but true. The GTS hoodline and LACK of the extra hood vents make it more exotic than muscle car looking.
I kinda began to think 13 is overrated.
The GEN IV was and still a legend.
 

Jack B

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This thread has all but been ruined by the selfish, let us have some fun. I an going to list some character traits and please try to guess who this best describes, all characters are fictional.

1. Knows it all.

2. Has technical lapses.

3. When lapses are uncovered by superiors, blame is placed on others.

4. Drives a low powered legend or an armored SUV.

5. Has nothing positive to add.

6. Creates a mess of a once great forum/country.

7. Hates veterans.

8. Hides behind a keyboard or teleprompter.

9. Has never built anything by himself.

10. Probably has large ears.
 

PeerBlock

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The GTS hoodline and LACK of the extra hood vents make it more exotic than muscle car looking.

I agree; the GTS hood is much sleeker. I feel like I'm being tailed by the NSA with all the random people snapping pics as I drive by. The base model hood with 6 vents is like a sleeveless tuxedo type of thing.

This thread has all but been ruined by the selfish, let us have some fun. I an going to list some character traits and please try to guess who this best describes, all characters are fictional.

I guess you could say this thread was slammed into direct drive...and it sounds like you're describing Obama right there.
 

Whoaa GTS

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Don't worry PeerBlock, I'm on your side. I firmly believe that if the thread revolved around a topic in which you had any knowledge you would sound much more intelligent.
 

PeerBlock

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Don't worry PeerBlock, I'm on your side. I firmly believe that if the thread revolved around a topic in which you had any knowledge you would sound much more intelligent.

Great, I'm about to start my new dyno smoothing service for insecure viper owners and you can be my first customer. I'll have your car doing 1000+ RWHP in no time.

I'm going to have to use that response sometime. Perfect!

Good plan. It will help ensure that you continue to not respond with useful or correct information.
 

Bobpantax

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What I would like to know is whether PeerBlock is the programmer who put together PeerBlock.
 

Nine Ball

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PeerBlock, don't you have some threads to create about floormats? That seems more your expertise. Hopefully you contribute something worthwhile during your visit here.
 

Jack B

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The results are in:

1. I received 88 PM's that thought the posted character traits best described Peer Block.

2. Of the 88 PM's, 87 thought that Peer Block was really an alias and that his real name was DICK.

3. I received one vote (from Peer Block) that thought the traits best described the Pres.
 

Bruce H.

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Enough with the attacks already...everyone loses in the end even if they are right, and the forum as a whole suffers for it as well. Some here got way too interested in arguing and making personal attacks.
 

PeerBlock

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PeerBlock, don't you have some threads to create about floormats? That seems more your expertise. Hopefully you contribute something worthwhile during your visit here.

The results are in:

1. I received 88 PM's that thought the posted character traits best described Peer Block.

2. Of the 88 PM's, 87 thought that Peer Block was really an alias and that his real name was DICK.

3. I received one vote (from Peer Block) that thought the traits best described the Pres.

Well, it's a shame you two felt the need to derail this thread from an interesting technical discussion to taking potshots at me...but I'll let it slide.

Seems like you could really use some of this:
You must be registered for see images attach


:rolaugh:
 

Jack B

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Have you tracked what he has done to this thread?? It was ruined way before he the last ten posts. He is brand new on this forum and has offended and mislead virtually everyone within this thread.

I will guarantee you he has done this on whatever forum his was kicked off of in the past.

Enough with the attacks already...everyone loses in the end even if they are right, and the forum as a whole suffers for it as well. Some here got way too interested in arguing and making personal attacks.
 
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VENOM V

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Enough with the attacks already...everyone loses in the end even if they are right, and the forum as a whole suffers for it as well. Some here got way too interested in arguing and making personal attacks.

I've got to agree with Bruce on this one. Give the new guy a break. If the engineers I worked with were this critical of eachother nothing would get done. Time to move one. No one's gonna win this argument, and at this point it doesn't matter who's right.
 

Bruce H.

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Have you tracked what he has done to this thread??

Yes, I've followed this thread from the beginning and it's pretty obvious how it went off the rails... and who let themselves get sucked into the mess. I find the forum membership here to be generally very enthusiastic, knowledgeable and considerate of differing views and opinions, and the discussions of high quality. It's just best to ignore those that threaten that rather than sinking to their level, and hope they go away, or have an attitude adjustment that permits useful contributions. And some just thrive on confrontation, and the best defense is to not give it to them.

I've observed several dyno sessions on my cars and others during tuning, and after doing other mods myself. I don't tend to put too much faith in the actual peak power numbers due to all the variables you guys were trying to sort out, but rather look at the broader powerband for my road course use. It would have been wonderful to have a reference quality technical thread on this topic. Hopefully a few of you will try again in another thread...and just ignore any poster(s) that try to ruin it.
 

Jack B

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The worst part of this derailment was the way Mr PB relished diverting the thread and it was obvious he has done this before on other forums. Virtually everyone of his posts had some personal barb attached, no one went after him till he turned it personal. Look at his last post, he is clueless.


Yes, I've followed this thread from the beginning and it's pretty obvious how it went off the rails... and who let themselves get sucked into the mess. I find the forum membership here to be generally very enthusiastic, knowledgeable and considerate of differing views and opinions, and the discussions of high quality. It's just best to ignore those that threaten that rather than sinking to their level, and hope they go away, or have an attitude adjustment that permits useful contributions. And some just thrive on confrontation, and the best defense is to not give it to them.

I've observed several dyno sessions on my cars and others during tuning, and after doing other mods myself. I don't tend to put too much faith in the actual peak power numbers due to all the variables you guys were trying to sort out, but rather look at the broader powerband for my road course use. It would have been wonderful to have a reference quality technical thread on this topic. Hopefully a few of you will try again in another thread...and just ignore any poster(s) that try to ruin it.
 
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