Getting Ready to Buy my first Viper

[marauderprime]

My name is Blake, I have a couple of questions about buying a Viper, but I thought I would take a moment to introduce myself. I am 33, I am one of two
senior Partners of a Business, construction, real-estate, and immigration law firm in Central Florida, and after getting married, and making the decision to
build my own firm (after having a great Corporate job) we downsized alot. My wife and I had a small wedding, we forewent the honeymoon until later, my
2011 GT500 went away in favor of a single cab short 2wd Ram Express Black which I have nothing but incredible things to say (even with the 6 speed not
the 8 speed), I cut my vehicle payment down by 450 bucks, Insurance got cheaper, gas stayed about the same, we moved into a smaller place with only
a one car garage, and I worked my butt off for the next year and a half.

After a series of lucky breaks, and being in the right place at the right time,(oh and alot of hard work), I just moved into a new office, got a partnership offer
I couldn't refuse, and got my wife the honeymoon I promised her, I got the all important Wife's permission to get a GEN II GTS. A car I lusted after forever,
and even test drove a couple back in 2011. I didnt know much, I was in a hurry, Gen 2 GTS prices were substantially higher than they are now, and
Listened to some people whose opinions were pretty Biased, and I ended up getting the new for 2011 all aluminum "550"hp gt500 instead. I had that car
for a few years, thoroughly enjoyed it (got alot of tickets, so I know for sure, I will not be getting a GTS with stripes.........), but ultimately, I feel like I had
that experience, and theres no need to repeat it. I started looking at Corvettes, the new Camaro, maybe even a Hellcat Challenger (although I had one of
the first 200 SRT8 challengers made with a 6 speed, and it was an awful experience. That was how I ended up in the Shelby, although admittedly, they do
seem to have it down to a science now. Never buy the first 200 of anything).

But I think it was fate, I was driving down US1, and a red stripe delete Gen 2 GTS blew past me, and I struggled to stay with him for as long as I could.
Those cars are probably one of the most visually striking cars I have ever seen, from any angle. I started watching videos, spending hours and hours on
forums reading about every generation of viper. I watched Sneaky Snakes blow away everything on wheels on his youtube channel in his Gen 4, but I just
kept coming back to the Gen 2's looks, and visceral nature.

I am planning on getting a Gen 2 GTS, and I would like gen 4 performance out of it, and having a history with forced induction, I am going to perform just
a few mods. I will get a paxton novi setup for it, although I would prefer an air to air intercooler setup on it, so maybe I can call them and peacemeal the
blower kit together, but if not, air to water would probably be fine, its what was on the Ford. I will be getting Long tube headers, and I will be getting a full
exhaust with cat deletes. black sidewinder wheels (because the new rims look spectacular on these cars), and a Brake upgrade.

Because of that, I have narrowed it down in reality to a 99 GTS. Last Year of the forged pistons. No Anti-lock brakes (which I actually prefer), and the
upgraded interior. With that last requirement comes a question. As I search, 99s seem to be rarer, and they are typically 20-30 percent more expensive
than 97/98s with similar miles on them. Is the upgraded interior so much nicer that it is worth the extra 10k in some cases? Are 97 and 98s as easy to
tune for forced induction? I do not believe in FMU's even though I know they work, I prefer more precise fuel delivery metering with upgraded fuel pumps,
pressure, and injectors. I had good luck with SCT LSX's for boost, and it seems to be a great product in general for the LSX crowd. Does it have the same
level of tunability with Viper PCMs?

My last question is about service and performance work. I have alot of mechanical ability. Before I was an attorney, I was a mechanic for many years, and
at one time I was a fleet manager for a medium size towing company in Orlando, which meant I was working on everything from cummins and power strokes,
to impounded ford fiestas that nobody ever came and got, however with owning my own business, I really don't have the luxury of time I had as an employee,
and really dont have time to service, much less modify a Viper. Can Anyone recommend a shop [preferably in eastern Central Florida, or worst case scenario
Orlando and middle central Florida that does good work at reasonable rates for these cars?

Thanks for listening to my long winded post, and yes I did do a search, but there is so much information it gets hard to wade through. Looking forward to
joining the community.

Sincerely,

Blake

 

[TalonTSi90]

No stripes means 00-02 and creampuff motor. And if you want boost, go Roe not Paxton for a Gen II.

 

[marauderprime]

Oh. I did not know that. It wasn't available as an option? I feel like I have seen several stripe less 98/99 gts's. Why the recommendation for Roe? Aren't those non-intercooled? Paxton has a good reputation, and I haven't seen any complaints from paxton viper owners. My concern with the roe aside from the lack of an intercooler is that having had a positive displacement blower (roots and later twin screw) the enormous amount of torque makes them very difficult to launch, especially on street tires. With the viper already making prodigious amounts of torque off the line, it seems like with the paxton, I can get out of the hole, and then roll into boost, vs having that big kick in the pants right off of idle.

 

[TalonTSi90]

Oh. I did not know that. It wasn't available as an option? I feel like I have seen several stripe less 98/99 gts's. Why the recommendation for Roe? Aren't those non-intercooled? Paxton has a good reputation, and I haven't seen any complaints from paxton viper owners. My concern with the roe aside from the lack of an intercooler is that having had a positive displacement blower (roots and later twin screw) the enormous amount of torque makes them very difficult to launch, especially on street tires. With the viper already making prodigious amounts of torque off the line, it seems like with the paxton, I can get out of the hole, and then roll into boost, vs having that big kick in the pants right off of idle.

Im not saying they dont exist, im just saying you wont find any. I know, ive been looking for "my" Viper since July of last year and have seen very few 97-99's with no stripes that are still factory paint, unless its an ACR. I feel im best to answer your questions, because they were the ones i asked in the last 6-7 months and got pointed here or there. Paxtons can bust crank snounts, but are the only option for Gen III+. Free2go can tell you off the line he has no problem.

I do know of one paxton Gen II thats all Silver, think its a 97-99 and might still be for sale. It was on the AutoTrader. http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...eList=VIPER&makeCodeList=DODGE&searchRadius=0

 

[TalonTSi90]

3 red 97's on cargurus.com 1 black 98.

This one is in Homestead FL https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inven...=false&filtersModified=true#listing=160750331

 

[viperman4125]

3 red 97's on cargurus.com 1 black 98.

This one is in Homestead FL https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inven...=false&filtersModified=true#listing=160750331[/QUOTE

For that price, you can get a cream puff 08 Conv.
Lots of 97-98 for a lot less than 52k

 

[TalonTSi90]

3 red 97's on cargurus.com 1 black 98.

This one is in Homestead FL https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inven...=false&filtersModified=true#listing=160750331

For that price, you can get a cream puff 08 Conv.
Lots of 97-98 for a lot less than 52k

What do you mean creampuff 08?

 

[broomrider]

creampuff motor

REALLY!? A Viper motor is not "cream puff " no matter the Gen. I swear there are always flies at the picnic.

 

[TalonTSi90]

REALLY!? A Viper motor is not "cream puff " no matter the Gen. I swear there are always flies at the picnic.

Hey, i didnt give them the nickname.

 

[viperman4125]

REALLY!? A Viper motor is not "cream puff " no matter the Gen. I swear there are always flies at the picnic.

No flies here in Fl.

 

[2001-V10 Power Nut]

We have a great club in central Florida, hopefully you can find what you want, and come hang out with the club. I know of a 2001 GTS/ACR or sale (not on the market yet) Blue with silver stripe, will check with some other owners and see whats around

 

[mbccenter]

You can just buy my Blue/White Twin Turbo GTS and be ready to go

 

[marauderprime]

Actually, I really love turbos, they just scare me on the Viper because you have to use turbo drain pumps, and those scare me.
If one of those pumps goes bad you can grenade a turbo really fast, and that typically doesnt go well for the motor attached to it.
although in this case, as far away as the turbos are from the motor, the damage to the motor wouldnt be too bad, but I think for
my tastes on this car, I would really just want the simplicity of a bolted on gravity drained intercooled supercharger. Where can I see pics
of your twin turbo?

 

[steve e]

You could get a 98 or 99 without stripes, it was an option.

 

[TalonTSi90]

Actually, I really love turbos, they just scare me on the Viper because you have to use turbo drain pumps, and those scare me.

Not true for all applications, if its done right.

 

[Jon Martin]

Actually, I really love turbos, they just scare me on the Viper because you have to use turbo drain pumps, and those scare me.
If one of those pumps goes bad you can grenade a turbo really fast, and that typically doesnt go well for the motor attached to it.
although in this case, as far away as the turbos are from the motor, the damage to the motor wouldnt be too bad, but I think for
my tastes on this car, I would really just want the simplicity of a bolted on gravity drained intercooled supercharger. Where can I see pics
of your twin turbo?

You can run Comp oil-less turbo's. Those things are pretty bad ass. Pricey, but man... the mounting versatility is amazing.

As far as the "Interior upgrades" of the 99, I've read a few posts where people didn't even notice the difference in interior between 97 to 98 to 99. So I personally would say, No, that is not worth the $10k you stated. 10K could be spent much better elsewhere.

I found myself heavily weighing the forged internal engine 96-99 vs later style and even Gen 3 vipers. Then I eventually convinced myself that I do not need forged internals. I have a race car that will always be faster than my viper. The viper can be fast with boost, and I don't have to get so ridiculous with it that I NEED forged pistons. Or if I eventually get to that point, I can always build any viper engine later.

 

[steve e]

I can tell you that the interior upgrades for 99 are nice, power side mirrors and other stuff, and the forged guts and bad ass cam were worth it to me but everyones priorities are different.

 

[mbccenter]

Actually, I really love turbos, they just scare me on the Viper because you have to use turbo drain pumps, and those scare me.
If one of those pumps goes bad you can grenade a turbo really fast, and that typically doesnt go well for the motor attached to it.
although in this case, as far away as the turbos are from the motor, the damage to the motor wouldnt be too bad, but I think for
my tastes on this car, I would really just want the simplicity of a bolted on gravity drained intercooled supercharger. Where can I see pics
of your twin turbo?

Mine are a gravity drain. No pumps here. I sent you a pm with my number. Can text you pics.

 

[marauderprime]

Actually, I posted up this entire long winded post, and I am about to switch gears directly, a Dealership around here came into possession of a Black 04 SRT10, with black powdercoated rims,
and they posted it at an outrageously high price, but when I saw it and talked to them a little bit, they made it clear they would wheel and deal with me. I started researching the car, discovered
I actually knew the previous owner, and called him up and got the dirt, and the dealership is going to make me an attractive offer to get out of my 14 ram black express (which this viper
reminds me of). Any guidelines on how much would be a reasonable price to finnagel if I know how much they paid for the car? I am thinking they have had the car for like 4 or 5 days, and if I
offer them 10 percent over what they paid for it, that's pretty reasonable right? I don't want to post up the purchase number because I don't want somebody reading this and sniping me since
I already posted up where I live lol.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Time again for History Lesson 101 , to combat years of perceptions that now many take for fact , when in reality things were a lot different. Might as well start with Viper paranoia that started in 1999, with a heavier Viper and supposed PCM changes to get rid of some of the cam shake and vibration. Sure many loved that , but complainers were hot and heavy back then. With the advent of 18 rims, and computer changes folks were hearing that the cars were slower than in previous years. Hmmm.....99 was not a banner year for sales either, and yet 2000 promised some changes which intrigued many as rumors of more horsepower emerged.

Timeline folks:
1. 2000 Snake came out and early plant pickup customers were told by the Plant Workers all about the new motor changes and he power increases.
2. There was a cease and desist order quite early , and workers were no longer allowed to talk about the hypereutectic pistons and the motor advantages.
3. Duh, they did not want GM to know, as there was close racing contested in SCCA
4. Viper Days was given $50,000 to promote their track challenge and racing series and it was being withheld since the points matrix system added penalty points for the 2000s with their power increase.
5. Before I hear someone say that is baloney, I was there, helped with the Matrix system and know Dodge did not release the funds until we classed 96-2000 Vipers the same.
6. Fastest Gen II (stock ) ever , was a 11.7 recorded in a 2000 Red RT-10 at Englishtown.
7. Enough folks believed the 99 was the dog of the bunch ( which also was not true -- remember perception ) that a group of folks not understanding the new pistons started promoting the advantage of the 96-99s for Supercharging.
Remember there were very few system or individuals supercharging then , but what a convenient excuse for the forged pistons - even though maybe 5% would even consider doing SCing.
8. The Forged Horsemen promoted the advantage of their old school ideal and bingo years later folks continue to think maybe they should get a 99 ( or 98,97, 96 ) for this reason alone.
9. Irony -- there were more Gen III cars Supercharged than any other Vipers and they have --------er-------cast aluminum pistons.
10. A lot of guys tracking Vipers looked for 2000s on , or even better the 2001 and 2002s with ABS brakes.
11. The Creampuff name stuck for no apparent reason , and a very quick Viper , still today, lives with perception somewhat started by folks with a previous year Viper that had misaligned rumors and it all ended with a new concept of lighter pistons (also being done in Porsches and Vettes ) and less reciprocating mass being judged inferior because it went against the trend.
12. Funny we had all these fast Vipers and did not go back to Forged till 2013 , and all because perception became reality to so many. Point of this whole message , perception can change reality in folk's mind, but what is actually the true reality?

Just a bit of real info, as this happened 18 years ago, and few actually know the history and old biases die hard. Broomrider said it all , there really were no Creampuffs with the Viper, and those that have run the beasts on the track actually know. Now wasn't that fun ?

Lastly Marauderprime ---please make sure you get the Gen III on a lift, check your oil cooler lines ( very prone to leak ) , check and listen to the window regulators, check the camshaft bolt, and make sure all recalls were done. Durable machines , but 13 years old and not checking can easily cost you 1000-5000 after the purchase. If the tires are still original , those are a must to be replaced - figure 2K by the time they are mounted/dismounted and recalibrated.

 

[marauderprime]

Bill, thank you very much for the advice. Do you mean the Crankshaft Bolt? I am not sure how I would be able to check the Camshaft Bolt. Wouldnt that be underneath the timing cover?

 

[Jon Martin]

I don't know if knowing what the previous owner let it go for really gives you a bargaining chip. It's good piece of mind, but ultimately, the dealership already knows the least amount they will accept. If they don't sell it to you for that price or better, then they will just hold onto it. For months if need be. I would start searching Autotrader, Cargurus, Iseecars and a nationwide craigslist. This will give you a very good idea of how much should be asked of an 04 at a dealership in similar shape to the one you are looking at. As you said, some dealerships are asking a ridiculous amount, like they didn't even bother to do the research. That probably means they are just hoping to catch some sucker drooling over a viper and buy it in the heat of the moment, cause it's not like you can just go to the next dealership and compare.

 

[marauderprime]

Typically Dealerships have a minimum profit threshold, which is what determines "how much they are willing to accept," I am just not sure what that is. The thing you have to consider is that the
dealership purchased that car outright, it was not a trade-in. That means that every second its sitting on their lot, its costing them, so its just a matter of getting them comfortable with what I am
comfortable with. I think a 10 percent turnaround in a week's time is pretty decent, so I think I am going to go out with that number. Also, I have searched all those car searching tools, including
autotrader, cars.com, car gurus, which is how I came to the conclusion that they were asking way too much. I found an identical car (possibly in slightly better shape as this one has black
powdercoated stock rims to cover up some curb damage, blown speakers, and just a generally rough feeling interior) at a dodge dealership with slightly less miles on it for 10k under their asking price.

The Viper is an exotic car. They have made more Z06 corvettes since 2001 than entire viper production. They make more corvettes in general in one year than entire Viper production. Because of that, these cars
have a national market. I am fully prepared to purchase a viper in Washington State or Maine if I have to, and I factor that in. 03-05 SRT10 Vipers with around 30k miles in a nationwide search at dealerships
have a median price of around 41k, but it is very common to find them in the 33 to 39 range. I also found some of the previous history of this particular car and found that the previous owner purchased it at a
retail dealership in 2009 with 16k miles on it for 38k. the car is now 7 years older, the same car now has 33k miles on it, and this dealership is asking 44,900 for it. If they buy out my truck, and get me out the door for
35k with tax tag and title, my next post will just be a picture thread. Actually, because it is a national market, I am willing to go up to 37k and do the deal so that I don't have to spend 400 bucks on a plane ticket
and then 1100 bucks on gas driving it back. My best friend and I flew to chicago to get a certified preowned 09 Z51 corvette, checked it out, paid for it, pulled the top off, and left in 29 degree weather, and drove it back
to Orlando straight through.

 

[2001-V10 Power Nut]

Any updates on a new member of your garage??

 

[TalonTSi90]

Time again for History Lesson 101 , to combat years of perceptions that now many take for fact , when in reality things were a lot different. Might as well start with Viper paranoia that started in 1999, with a heavier Viper and supposed PCM changes to get rid of some of the cam shake and vibration. Sure many loved that , but complainers were hot and heavy back then. With the advent of 18 rims, and computer changes folks were hearing that the cars were slower than in previous years. Hmmm.....99 was not a banner year for sales either, and yet 2000 promised some changes which intrigued many as rumors of more horsepower emerged.

Timeline folks:
1. 2000 Snake came out and early plant pickup customers were told by the Plant Workers all about the new motor changes and he power increases.
2. There was a cease and desist order quite early , and workers were no longer allowed to talk about the hypereutectic pistons and the motor advantages.
3. Duh, they did not want GM to know, as there was close racing contested in SCCA
4. Viper Days was given $50,000 to promote their track challenge and racing series and it was being withheld since the points matrix system added penalty points for the 2000s with their power increase.
5. Before I hear someone say that is baloney, I was there, helped with the Matrix system and know Dodge did not release the funds until we classed 96-2000 Vipers the same.
6. Fastest Gen II (stock ) ever , was a 11.7 recorded in a 2000 Red RT-10 at Englishtown.
7. Enough folks believed the 99 was the dog of the bunch ( which also was not true -- remember perception ) that a group of folks not understanding the new pistons started promoting the advantage of the 96-99s for Supercharging.
Remember there were very few system or individuals supercharging then , but what a convenient excuse for the forged pistons - even though maybe 5% would even consider doing SCing.
8. The Forged Horsemen promoted the advantage of their old school ideal and bingo years later folks continue to think maybe they should get a 99 ( or 98,97, 96 ) for this reason alone.
9. Irony -- there were more Gen III cars Supercharged than any other Vipers and they have --------er-------cast aluminum pistons.
10. A lot of guys tracking Vipers looked for 2000s on , or even better the 2001 and 2002s with ABS brakes.
11. The Creampuff name stuck for no apparent reason , and a very quick Viper , still today, lives with perception somewhat started by folks with a previous year Viper that had misaligned rumors and it all ended with a new concept of lighter pistons (also being done in Porsches and Vettes ) and less reciprocating mass being judged inferior because it went against the trend.
12. Funny we had all these fast Vipers and did not go back to Forged till 2013 , and all because perception became reality to so many. Point of this whole message , perception can change reality in folk's mind, but what is actually the true reality?

Just a bit of real info, as this happened 18 years ago, and few actually know the history and old biases die hard. Broomrider said it all , there really were no Creampuffs with the Viper, and those that have run the beasts on the track actually know. Now wasn't that fun ?

Lastly Marauderprime ---please make sure you get the Gen III on a lift, check your oil cooler lines ( very prone to leak ) , check and listen to the window regulators, check the camshaft bolt, and make sure all recalls were done. Durable machines , but 13 years old and not checking can easily cost you 1000-5000 after the purchase. If the tires are still original , those are a must to be replaced - figure 2K by the time they are mounted/dismounted and recalibrated.

Ive read as much on it as i could find, i thought the creampuff was due to the milder cam, NOT the pistons alone? Also, in your opinion, do they take to mods as well as the forged piston 97-99 motors? MotoIQ has a great article on a 97 and with K&N, Roe smooth tubes, Corsa 3" with Kooks Green Cats made 475.38 hp and 506.96 lb-ft. But also found a trend that 97-99's made on average 420 at the wheels while 00-02 made 411 dead stock. http://www.motoiq.com/Projects/Dodge/ViperGTS.aspx

Typically Dealerships have a minimum profit threshold, which is what determines "how much they are willing to accept," I am just not sure what that is. The thing you have to consider is that the
dealership purchased that car outright, it was not a trade-in. That means that every second its sitting on their lot, its costing them, so its just a matter of getting them comfortable with what I am
comfortable with. I think a 10 percent turnaround in a week's time is pretty decent, so I think I am going to go out with that number. Also, I have searched all those car searching tools, including
autotrader, cars.com, car gurus, which is how I came to the conclusion that they were asking way too much. I found an identical car (possibly in slightly better shape as this one has black
powdercoated stock rims to cover up some curb damage, blown speakers, and just a generally rough feeling interior) at a dodge dealership with slightly less miles on it for 10k under their asking price.

The Viper is an exotic car. They have made more Z06 corvettes since 2001 than entire viper production. They make more corvettes in general in one year than entire Viper production. Because of that, these cars
have a national market. I am fully prepared to purchase a viper in Washington State or Maine if I have to, and I factor that in. 03-05 SRT10 Vipers with around 30k miles in a nationwide search at dealerships
have a median price of around 41k, but it is very common to find them in the 33 to 39 range. I also found some of the previous history of this particular car and found that the previous owner purchased it at a
retail dealership in 2009 with 16k miles on it for 38k. the car is now 7 years older, the same car now has 33k miles on it, and this dealership is asking 44,900 for it. If they buy out my truck, and get me out the door for
35k with tax tag and title, my next post will just be a picture thread. Actually, because it is a national market, I am willing to go up to 37k and do the deal so that I don't have to spend 400 bucks on a plane ticket
and then 1100 bucks on gas driving it back. My best friend and I flew to chicago to get a certified preowned 09 Z51 corvette, checked it out, paid for it, pulled the top off, and left in 29 degree weather, and drove it back
to Orlando straight through.

Yea, and then you have the Copperheads... with a massive $20-25k spread between near dead identical cars.

 

[marauderprime]

Update, and more questions!

Sorry, I just got back from 8 days in Tahiti, with a 4 day family visit in LA. The Dealership took the car to auction without telling me, even though I had an appointment to see it, and my father in law took off work early to come with me to check out the paint and body on it. (he is a pretty well known body guy). I was pretty aggravated about it because they didnt bother to give me a phone call to tell me they did that, they let me, my wife, and my father in law take off work early and come to the dealership to find out. Its a dealership, so I'm used to crap like that, I should have called up to confirm (even though the point of an appointment is to RESERVE a meeting).

Now that I am back from the honeymoon, I am moving a few things around financially, but the Viper is back on the priority list (and 8 days in Tahiti has put the wife in a better mood haha). Unfortunately I came back conflicted again. There is a gentlemen around this area that I think I am going to finally meet this weekend that has a gen 3 viper, so I am going to be supernice to him, and see if he will take me for a ride in his car/ possibly drive it around a parking lot a bit, since I am yet to test drive a Gen 3.

I have gotten really into gen 2 GTS's and RT/10s again. The styling is spectacular, I have watched enough youtube videos now to see that even though they are down 40 hp to the newer cars, they do seem to be a bit lighter, and the performance difference isnt overwhelming. After Reading more though, I am concerned about a few things. I have seen alot of posts where earlier Gen 2's seem to not be water tight. I live in Florida. It rains alot, frequently with less than 5 minutes of warning. Cars here that arent completely sealed against the weather develop mold problems fairly quickly. RT/10's apparently leak around the back window/back of the side windows (when the hardtop is on), and the GTS apparently leaks at the windows, and a bit in the hatch. Was this something that was addressed and improved later on? with the restyle and mild updates that happened in 99 with the interior and some of the switch gear, did they improve window sealing? Does anybody else have anything else to add to this? The Gen 3's dont seem to have this problem at all, so if this is a hit or miss kind of thing, I think that living in Florida may necessitate a Gen 3.

Thanks in advance,

Blake

 

[Gen2ViperLife]

We have a great club in central Florida, hopefully you can find what you want, and come hang out with the club. I know of a 2001 GTS/ACR or sale (not on the market yet) Blue with silver stripe, will check with some other owners and see whats around

You can just buy my Blue/White Twin Turbo GTS and be ready to go

Would you guys mind sending me the info on both these cars? In the market, ready to buy the right one. PM's are fine. Much appreciated!

 

[marauderprime]

HIJACKER!!!!

 

[Gen2ViperLife]

Sorry man! I noticed they had said they knew of some cars but didn't see anybody take them up on the offer. Just thought I'd ask! I think you should get a Gen 2. I know the Gen 3 has more power, and comfort but I made my decision by asking myself what have I always wanted, and would I regret it. Plus the gen 3 don't have those curves and at quick glance everyone will think it's a Vette. Just my opinion of course. Have you pulled the trigger yet?

 

[marauderprime]

I was just messing with you man. I'm still in gen decision limbo. I am leaning towards a gen 2 rt10, but I can't get one realistically in east central Florida if they have interior sealing problems. Targa c4's and t-top third gens taught me that lesson well. if these things leak in rainstorms I have to go gen 3.