REDSLED
Enthusiast
How much better is the 2002 ACR suspension as compared to the 97 GTS suspension? Pros/cons. I've been thinking about upgrading my suspension for the track.
GTS vs. ACR Suspension
- Thread starter REDSLED
- Start date
I would say that most here with 2000.6 and newer ACRS who track them would say they are, well, frankly... crummy.
For the same money you could end up with a much better suspension than chosing to duplicate the DSI setup of newer ACRs.
That rear spring rate is WAAY too high (1100) and overpowers the ability of the user to adjust the compression or rebound. Its basically a ride-height only shock in the rear, and buck-board hard. On washboard public roads its almost dangerous.
Ive got 800 and 850s going in soon for test-tune, sine 3-days of trying woth DSIs were a waste of time. I PREFER 1997 STOCK !!
The ONLY Team-V person I've ever met since 1993 that was insulting and unfriendly was the ACR suspension guy, at VOI-7.
No help---just sarcasm. Shame, too.
1999-2000.5 ACRS had Konis, a much-preferred setup, but wildly expensive. Choose OTHER 3-way adjustables for $2400 - $5500 wheras the Konis are $7000 discounted from MSRP of $8000+.
Please call me for more.......but SKIP DSI s!!!
For the same money you could end up with a much better suspension than chosing to duplicate the DSI setup of newer ACRs.
That rear spring rate is WAAY too high (1100) and overpowers the ability of the user to adjust the compression or rebound. Its basically a ride-height only shock in the rear, and buck-board hard. On washboard public roads its almost dangerous.
Ive got 800 and 850s going in soon for test-tune, sine 3-days of trying woth DSIs were a waste of time. I PREFER 1997 STOCK !!
The ONLY Team-V person I've ever met since 1993 that was insulting and unfriendly was the ACR suspension guy, at VOI-7.
No help---just sarcasm. Shame, too.
1999-2000.5 ACRS had Konis, a much-preferred setup, but wildly expensive. Choose OTHER 3-way adjustables for $2400 - $5500 wheras the Konis are $7000 discounted from MSRP of $8000+.
Please call me for more.......but SKIP DSI s!!!
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
J
Try these shocks! www.edelbrock.com
I would love to get feedback on these from someone that tracks the car. These shocks are great on the street!
Oh for you folks back east, it will be 83 and sunny here today (imagine that)
Try these shocks! www.edelbrock.com
I would love to get feedback on these from someone that tracks the car. These shocks are great on the street!
Oh for you folks back east, it will be 83 and sunny here today (imagine that)
REDSLED
Enthusiast
Thanks for the info Keith. You didn't get your Konis from A guy in Cali did you? I remember seeing a 99 ACR suspension for $1800 several months ago. That was a sweet deal. I have the chance to p/u an ACR suspension from a 2K mile 2002 and was wondering if it was that much better than my 97 for track purposes.
Jonathan
Jonathan
Frank Parise
VCA Venom Member
Having easily adjustable ride heights, springs, and adjustable shocks put you at a real advantage for track purposes.
Springs are relatively cheap at around $100 per pair, so you can spring your car at any rate you are comfortable with. The ACR set up is sweet so long as you learn how to dial in your spring rates and shock settings. As Jon alludes to, it is important that your shocks are valved properly to work with your desired spring rates. If they are valved for a softer set up, the shock will not be able to control the oscilation of the spring. It is not uncommon for racers to have multiple sets of shocks in their trailer so they can make meaningful spring changes at the track.
I look forward to hearing how Jon liked the softer springs in the rear. That will be a less expensive change than having his shocks revalved.
Springs are relatively cheap at around $100 per pair, so you can spring your car at any rate you are comfortable with. The ACR set up is sweet so long as you learn how to dial in your spring rates and shock settings. As Jon alludes to, it is important that your shocks are valved properly to work with your desired spring rates. If they are valved for a softer set up, the shock will not be able to control the oscilation of the spring. It is not uncommon for racers to have multiple sets of shocks in their trailer so they can make meaningful spring changes at the track.
I look forward to hearing how Jon liked the softer springs in the rear. That will be a less expensive change than having his shocks revalved.
Fast Freddy
Enthusiast
i must say i think dodge nailed the suspension right on my 2001 acr. the only adjustment i made for street use was to reduce my rebound setting 4 clicks in the front. all the compression settings came dialed all the way out front and rear from the factory. which is the way it should be since this suspension is designed for track work (road racing). when u got 2 the track u crank all your compression dampners down and set your rebound accordingly. truly is the best of both worlds. suspension has to be a little stiff on the street in order to give you the kind of performance you will need at the track. the suspension is right at the limit of being to stiff for the street yet it is very tolerable. i have owned, driven and road raced many different kinds of high performance suspension systems that attempt 2 bridge the gap between the track and the street and the suspension on my 2001 acr is awesome. thank you suspension dynamics.
Fast Freddy
Enthusiast
by the way. high spring rates are necessary for quick lap times. a good suspension system like the one designed by suspension dynamics for the 2001 acr have shock valving that will make the suspension user friendly for the street which mine is. yet at the same time will allow for u to make adjustments to rip off some killer lap times at the track.
ACR Larry
Enthusiast
Redsled,
I have the 2000.5 with Koni's. Maybe we can compare rides on the 12th.
Larry
I have the 2000.5 with Koni's. Maybe we can compare rides on the 12th.
Larry
REDSLED
Enthusiast
Thanks for the offer Larry, however, I had to move my registration to the Jan 15th date. I'll take you up on your offer if your going Jan 15th. I also want to see what your supercharged beast will do on the back straight and front straight of Willow Springs!!!!!!!!
Jonathan
Jonathan
FFreddy,
Thanks for your input. I am watching the ACR Posts and this post especially. I value any input and yours definately is what I agree with. I would like to ask Jon B. for his input on what youv'e said. As for myself, I could mostly see myself using an ACR for Track and maybe a little tooling around the Great City of Chicago with Toofast and the others.
Cheers,
Jay K.
Thanks for your input. I am watching the ACR Posts and this post especially. I value any input and yours definately is what I agree with. I would like to ask Jon B. for his input on what youv'e said. As for myself, I could mostly see myself using an ACR for Track and maybe a little tooling around the Great City of Chicago with Toofast and the others.
Cheers,
Jay K.
kverges
Enthusiast
JonB is more knowledgeable about parts, but $7K for the Konis! Aren't the Konis the model 2812? Direct from Truechoice, the 2812s are something like $800 each at full retail, so a set of shocks should be more like $3200. You will still need spacers and hardware for the spring mounts and teh springs themselves (about $60 each or so), but otherwise, I know of know difference between Koni and Dodge parts. Figure moe like $3500 for brand new Konis.
I have yet to put the 2812s I got from the classifieds section on my car (am am starting with 450 & 650 lb/in springs to start with), and I picked up the ACR Koni supplemental brochure and it sure seems to match these shocks.
FWIW
I have yet to put the 2812s I got from the classifieds section on my car (am am starting with 450 & 650 lb/in springs to start with), and I picked up the ACR Koni supplemental brochure and it sure seems to match these shocks.
FWIW
Bob Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Nobody asked for it but somehow I feel compelled to give my opinion.
I just finished reading all the above posts and it could be easy to follow some partially accurate info and not get much accomplished. If any of you want to know more about shocks and how they work, go to Amazon.com and order a couple books written by Carrol Smith. Bobby Archer sells them also. Carrol also has a spiral bound quick notes called Chassis Tuning.
It is true that you can get a spring and shock unmatched but I doubt that any are. Some are single adjust, (rarely seen) most are double adjust and some are tripe adjust. The spring/shock combo on a Viper is likely well within the shock adjustment range without changing valving. That is generally not the concern but more based on the weight of the automobile. Most people that give advice on adjusting shocks are blowing smoke (ie:know nothing). Trust yourself if you are an advanced driver or trust these books. Few undestand the dynamics because that takes some serious study. There are a few though that will give the effort required for a miniscule few 10th of a second per lap.
One rule of thumb, do not over-damp. As to springs, I agree with the above, 1100# is a rating that will work but that is absolutely the top end of a Viper chassis. This strong of a spring makes tuning difficult as the chassis becomes the flexing member of a stock Viper. If a good roll cage is involved this will change the frame rigidity. Generally there is no need to go this high on rate unless you are using tremendous downforce (aero package) and running on a track with 100 plus mph turns.
I know some would argue this philosophy. That's healthy. Go to Viperdays.com and review people with fast laps to know who to listen to.
I just finished reading all the above posts and it could be easy to follow some partially accurate info and not get much accomplished. If any of you want to know more about shocks and how they work, go to Amazon.com and order a couple books written by Carrol Smith. Bobby Archer sells them also. Carrol also has a spiral bound quick notes called Chassis Tuning.
It is true that you can get a spring and shock unmatched but I doubt that any are. Some are single adjust, (rarely seen) most are double adjust and some are tripe adjust. The spring/shock combo on a Viper is likely well within the shock adjustment range without changing valving. That is generally not the concern but more based on the weight of the automobile. Most people that give advice on adjusting shocks are blowing smoke (ie:know nothing). Trust yourself if you are an advanced driver or trust these books. Few undestand the dynamics because that takes some serious study. There are a few though that will give the effort required for a miniscule few 10th of a second per lap.
One rule of thumb, do not over-damp. As to springs, I agree with the above, 1100# is a rating that will work but that is absolutely the top end of a Viper chassis. This strong of a spring makes tuning difficult as the chassis becomes the flexing member of a stock Viper. If a good roll cage is involved this will change the frame rigidity. Generally there is no need to go this high on rate unless you are using tremendous downforce (aero package) and running on a track with 100 plus mph turns.
I know some would argue this philosophy. That's healthy. Go to Viperdays.com and review people with fast laps to know who to listen to.
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
Based on my UserName, you know what I have. And I have to say I LOVE the setup even at 1100 lbs. JonB was the first Guy I called when I got the car, to order floor mats. He was the one who informed me that dodge may have over done the spring rate in the rear. Being new to the car, I agreed it was overly stiff. But let me tell you, after 1 month of ownership and over 4,000 miles logged (most owners don't put that on a car in 3-4 YEARS), I LOVE the setup. I have a history of being a Porsche guy, and so I am fond of good handling, this 2002 ACR raises the bar. I was walking all over some seasoned 02 Z06 owners in a spirited drive down some back roads (on our way to the Drag Strip). This doesn't mean that an 02 ACR is any better then a GTS because I was beating the pants off some Z06's. But it does mean, its not dangerous on the STREET, IF you know what your doing, and you READ your car. You can do some AMAZING things with a stock ACR 01/02 suspension. Now IMAGINE what we will be able to do when someone starts tracking these cars hard, and can give us RELEVANT data about what to set our adjustments at. (seems 99-early 00 is all anyone has figured out right now). I know what I supplied was an OPINION, but opinions are anyone seems to be giving right now. When someone (good driver) gets to a good road course track with a 01/02 ACR and pulls some numbers that can be compared, THEN we can all stop GUESSING and start KNOWING how well this setup really works at the TRACK. On the street, I'm happy as ....
PS. If you want to see im not overly biased because I just got the car, I will admit that I HATE the way the **** thing likes to follow groves in the road, and is QUITE a handful on roads that are in need of repair. (where as my past Porsche's never forced me to put both hands on the wheel like this viper does in those situations).
PS. If you want to see im not overly biased because I just got the car, I will admit that I HATE the way the **** thing likes to follow groves in the road, and is QUITE a handful on roads that are in need of repair. (where as my past Porsche's never forced me to put both hands on the wheel like this viper does in those situations).
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2002_Viper_GTS_ACR:
PS. If you want to see im not overly biased because I just got the car, I will admit that I HATE the way the **** thing likes to follow groves in the road, and is QUITE a handful on roads that are in need of repair. (where as my past Porsche's never forced me to put both hands on the wheel like this viper does in those situations).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I assume your P cars were 911 variety. They have skinny tires compared to the Viper, and all the weight is at the rear - away from the steering tires.
As Billy Gibbons (ZZ Top) said in the song titled: The Mexican Blackbird "...said keep yer hands on the wheel, there..."
PS. If you want to see im not overly biased because I just got the car, I will admit that I HATE the way the **** thing likes to follow groves in the road, and is QUITE a handful on roads that are in need of repair. (where as my past Porsche's never forced me to put both hands on the wheel like this viper does in those situations).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I assume your P cars were 911 variety. They have skinny tires compared to the Viper, and all the weight is at the rear - away from the steering tires.
As Billy Gibbons (ZZ Top) said in the song titled: The Mexican Blackbird "...said keep yer hands on the wheel, there..."
Bugeater
Enthusiast
Dean,
You guessed wrong! John used to own a 928S4 with a *gasp* 500RWHP Big Block in it. I would say the weight of the car was in the front!
You guessed wrong! John used to own a 928S4 with a *gasp* 500RWHP Big Block in it. I would say the weight of the car was in the front!
toddt
Enthusiast
I get REALLY frustrated with this topic.
Everytime someone brings it up, INEVITABLY, somebody's gotta make some snide comment about how the person complaining about the spring rates in the ACR doesn't know how to adjust their setup, has never been to the track, has no penis, etc.
Listen everyone, PLENTY of people who know their butt from a brake marker have complained about the ACR setup--PLENTY.
And I'M here to complain about the 99 Koni's that Jon seemed to speak highly of.
I've tried every setting, and there is NOTHING you can do to my car to get it to settle down in the rear!
Crank the rebound all the way up, and bring the bounce all the way down. You are still going to come out of your seat over medium frequency bumps unless you are heavy on the throttle. Try every dang bounce setting, it just gets worse.
Under heavy throttle coming out of sweeping corners with any kind of rough pavement, you WILL feel the rears skip and skitter. It is dangerous.
I've driven cars with much better compliance and stability for much less money--my money is on fooling with the spring rate, just as Jon is doing, even in the 99.
Everytime someone brings it up, INEVITABLY, somebody's gotta make some snide comment about how the person complaining about the spring rates in the ACR doesn't know how to adjust their setup, has never been to the track, has no penis, etc.
Listen everyone, PLENTY of people who know their butt from a brake marker have complained about the ACR setup--PLENTY.
And I'M here to complain about the 99 Koni's that Jon seemed to speak highly of.
I've tried every setting, and there is NOTHING you can do to my car to get it to settle down in the rear!
Crank the rebound all the way up, and bring the bounce all the way down. You are still going to come out of your seat over medium frequency bumps unless you are heavy on the throttle. Try every dang bounce setting, it just gets worse.
Under heavy throttle coming out of sweeping corners with any kind of rough pavement, you WILL feel the rears skip and skitter. It is dangerous.
I've driven cars with much better compliance and stability for much less money--my money is on fooling with the spring rate, just as Jon is doing, even in the 99.
Fast Freddy
Enthusiast
for all the misinformed. try driving any other car in the world with a 1100 lb. spring rate in the rear on the street and u tell me if it handles as good as the dodge viper. i doubt it. it is not easy to tame 1100 lb springs and suspension dynamics has done it. so u ask why put 1100 lb. springs in the dodge viper then? because some of us do more than just drag race our cars in a straight line. we turn and burn. otherwise known as road racing. high spring rates generate quick lap times. that is why all pro road racing teams use them and so do i. check out the spring rate on a imsa or scca gt1 car. no flame intended to all the drag racers. i do plenty of drag racing too. just not in my viper. i prefer to drag race my 2001 camaro ss and my 2001 ford lightning. i prefer solid rear axles and auto trannies for strip duties.
Frank Parise
VCA Venom Member
I'm curious as to exactly what the shock settings and tire pressures are for those owners who are experiencing difficulty getting their 01-02 ACR handling the way they would like it.
On my 01 ACR I am able to make the ride horrific or wonderful by leaving my rebound on very stiff settings and simply adjusting the compression up or down. I run with 29 PSI in all four tires.
With rebound set somewhere between 1 and 5 clicks off of full hard and the compression set on full soft at all four tires, my ACR handles very close to my 02 BMW M3, even on bumpy roads. I haven't torture tested my car nor do I ever intend to because I stay off of those kinds of roads, regardless of which car I drive. Try these settings for the street and let me know how you like them.
If you want your car to feel more like a racecar, stiffen up the compression settings 2 or 3 clicks at a time until you don't like the ride anymore. The car will respond to your inputs much faster but will be less forgiving if you screw up. You will feel an enormous difference using this exercise. It will make you respect the tunability of your shocks. I am amazed at how wide a range of dampening the Dynamic shocks offer on my car. They provide way more to the handling package than simply "fine-tuning". With these shocks, you can get glad in the same pants you get sad.
BTW the top 3 Viper Racing League drivers in the 2002 final points standings are running spring rates in both the front and rear that are significantly higher than 1100 LBS. Granted, they have a much stiffer chassis because of their roll cages and they have serious downforce produced by front splitters and rear wings.
A short story, then I need to go. In my VRL GT-1 Viper, I was always faster and much more comfortable with softer springs ( in the 500-900 LB range). I could drive the car more agressively with confidence and maintain control of the car, even if the rear end got tail happy in a corner. Over the last 2 years, many of the racers that I used to consistently thrash started beating me consistently. The fastest guys kept going stiffer and stiffer on spring rates, shock valving, sway bars, etc. I figured I better try what was working for them. I tried similar setups using spring rates subtantially higher than 1100 in both front and rear. I found the car to be well-balanced but very unforgiving if the car ever got loose in the rear. The last time I ever drove my race Viper (July 2002), I had a serious crash during testing at VIR. In the exit of a medium speed corner, the rear end snapped around on me so quickly that I couldn't correct it. In 18,000 miles of wheel to wheel racing, this was the first time I had ever made contact with anything in my Viper. The point is, different strokes for different folks. I've learned to set up the car to make myself comfortable and not worry about what the other guys are doing.
Finally, even if I tried to sabotage their setup, Bob Woodhouse and Paul Mumford would still be fast, especially driving *****'s car.
On my 01 ACR I am able to make the ride horrific or wonderful by leaving my rebound on very stiff settings and simply adjusting the compression up or down. I run with 29 PSI in all four tires.
With rebound set somewhere between 1 and 5 clicks off of full hard and the compression set on full soft at all four tires, my ACR handles very close to my 02 BMW M3, even on bumpy roads. I haven't torture tested my car nor do I ever intend to because I stay off of those kinds of roads, regardless of which car I drive. Try these settings for the street and let me know how you like them.
If you want your car to feel more like a racecar, stiffen up the compression settings 2 or 3 clicks at a time until you don't like the ride anymore. The car will respond to your inputs much faster but will be less forgiving if you screw up. You will feel an enormous difference using this exercise. It will make you respect the tunability of your shocks. I am amazed at how wide a range of dampening the Dynamic shocks offer on my car. They provide way more to the handling package than simply "fine-tuning". With these shocks, you can get glad in the same pants you get sad.
BTW the top 3 Viper Racing League drivers in the 2002 final points standings are running spring rates in both the front and rear that are significantly higher than 1100 LBS. Granted, they have a much stiffer chassis because of their roll cages and they have serious downforce produced by front splitters and rear wings.
A short story, then I need to go. In my VRL GT-1 Viper, I was always faster and much more comfortable with softer springs ( in the 500-900 LB range). I could drive the car more agressively with confidence and maintain control of the car, even if the rear end got tail happy in a corner. Over the last 2 years, many of the racers that I used to consistently thrash started beating me consistently. The fastest guys kept going stiffer and stiffer on spring rates, shock valving, sway bars, etc. I figured I better try what was working for them. I tried similar setups using spring rates subtantially higher than 1100 in both front and rear. I found the car to be well-balanced but very unforgiving if the car ever got loose in the rear. The last time I ever drove my race Viper (July 2002), I had a serious crash during testing at VIR. In the exit of a medium speed corner, the rear end snapped around on me so quickly that I couldn't correct it. In 18,000 miles of wheel to wheel racing, this was the first time I had ever made contact with anything in my Viper. The point is, different strokes for different folks. I've learned to set up the car to make myself comfortable and not worry about what the other guys are doing.
Finally, even if I tried to sabotage their setup, Bob Woodhouse and Paul Mumford would still be fast, especially driving *****'s car.
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