Has anyone run into Water Based Paints being used yet?

[Tom and Vipers]

I'm waiting.... waiting... waiting.... because I want to use the stuff on my Viper.

Have heard that Sikkens has been using the stuff in Europe for 8 years and in Canada it will be required legally in 18 months.

The Sikkens water based project in California - the representative in charge WILL NOT return my calls or emails. What a dweeb.

Tom

 

[grcforce327]

Is this the stuff?

http://www.autoaircolors.com/product_overview.htm

http://www.autoaircolors.com/dealer.htm

 

[Mopar Steve]

I was at the dealer for some issues with my H2 and looking at the new C6 ZO6 and the paint on that car was worse than any new car I have ever seen. Honest. I was guessing that might have been problems with the new paint systems (maybe GM is using the new water based paint). I have no idea but I can't figure any other way to explain the poor paint job. It looked like latex house paint. My wife actually pointed it out to me first.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

No, I've seen autoaircolors before, they have been around for a few years at least.

They have water based paints but only in a limited number of standard colors - no chance of matching any manufacturer's paint.

I read one thing about the Sikkens product and that it produces a much "cleaner" paint because there is no static charge generated like with solvent based paints.

I've painted lacquers and enamels and would like to bypass iso-cyanates completely.

 

[CO GTS]

My 2001 BMW ///M Roadster had water based paint. The nose got chipped up so badly, so quickly, that I brought it up as a service issue. Both the dealership and the BMW forums recognized that the water based paint that BMW was using chipped very easily. My 2001 GTS has FAR better paint.

 

[Freddog11]

Water based paints are a nightmare, but due to EPA regulations they will unfortunately be the only option in coming years for both OEM and refinish. Some of the US manufacturers have been using water for years, mostly on primers, but the technology just hasn't advanced enough to match the polyisocyanate urethanes that we all love. At one point in the 80s, they experimented with color injected body panels, such as were found on the Pontiac Fiero. Decent idea, but for repairs, color matching and inventory were impossible. Another idea for a while was colored film, sort of a shrink wrap that would be applied and heated, wrapping around the contour of the car. Cost prohibitive so it never took off. California is so far the only state requiring the use of water based paints for refinish, although many of the products, especially primers and some clears, are now water based around the country. Hopefully the technology will improve, but I wouldn't want that junk on my car.

 

[dave6666]

If the over spray won't kill plants, pets and insects, not worthy of automotive use. Water based stuff if for sheetrock. Just look at all of the 90's GM cars still running around with massive paint peeling problems. As mentioned above, a slight issue with adhesion. We'll have to get our solvent based stuff covertly...

 

[Tom and Vipers]

I guess that's why the Sikkens CA rep has no interest in talking to me.

While I haven't been watching threads diligently for this topic, I don't seem to find any discussion on this topic. One would think that the 8 years of European use would find complaints trickling into this web site.

It is possible there are a lot of different water based compositions - I know the Sikkens stuff which they show a video on their world wide (not US) site and they use 3 or 4 components in this mixture.

My plan was to paint (with stripe) the louvered hood and fascia in NV and drive the car back to PA - I loathed the thought of driving the car back primered - its hard to explain the joy of seeing the top of that hood when driving....

But ironically, back in PA, I have a large 1 car garage which is a fairly effecting paint booth: 4 panels in garage door replaced with furnace filters and a big 220v shrouded fan liberated from a large AC water chiller - it can produce a breeze with the 9 foot door fully open (!). I can paint a car in that garage and there is no overspray on the workbenches or anywhere else so it would be a great place to cheat and use isocyanates w/o a fesh air suit.

As far as paying someone to do it in NV, I am so tired of going to the "best guy around," paying top dollar and getting a job inferior to any of the body shop hacks working in my small town.

I'm depressed...
Tom

 

[dave6666]

I'm depressed...
Tom

Tom - drive your car fast for 30 minutes. Cures anything.

 

[HP]

Tom, a few months back at the Sherman-Williams auto paint store, the salesman showed me a fullface mask with Isocyante rated filters. My need to paint is sporatic - so I don't always keep up with the latest stuff, but it was the first time I can recall a mask rated for urethanes. Plus the mask fit snug - and was comfortable.

 

[Freddog11]

If the over spray won't kill plants, pets and insects, not worthy of automotive use. Water based stuff if for sheetrock. Just look at all of the 90's GM cars still running around with massive paint peeling problems. As mentioned above, a slight issue with adhesion. We'll have to get our solvent based stuff covertly...

Funny stuff about the plants, I like that. The problem all the manufacturers had in the early 90 with the peelers was basically an EPA issue. The EPA gave the manufacturers a set amount of VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds) in pounds that they were allowed to release from each plant. Based on that figure they were left with the choices of A.) Paint less cars B.) Use less paint on each car C.) Use low VOC finishes. Obviously we know they didn't choose A, most of them chose B, some chose C. By using less paint, the only place you can really cut back is in the clearcoat. The mil thickness on some of those 90s cars, especially GM trucks back then was ridiculously low. Most of the UV protection in a cars finish in a 2 stage paint job is in the clearcoat. By cutting back on the clearcoat, they eliminated most of the UV protection. If anyone has ever seen the local Jethro driving around in his primered truck, you see how the primer eventally turns chalky. The primer under these finishes was doing the same thing, and losing its chemical and mechanical adhesion properties, therefore causing the paint to delaminate, or peel. The white ones were the worst because they put the least amount of clear on top and white basecoat is inherently not a high solids color anyway. The same conditions occurred with choice C, using waterbased low VOC clearcoats that did not have the same UV protections found in urethane paints. It cost the manufacturers tens of millions of dollars in warranty refinish jobs, and in the long run, the total amount of VOC released was more than doubled from the EPA standard due to the fact that the average body shops paint booths are not nearly as efficient at filtering the air released.

 

[dave6666]

Our government. My heros...

 

[Tom and Vipers]

I finally got hold of that Sikkens guy and water based paints are now being used via normal retail sales in some areas of CA. ALL Sikkens water based product is available anywhere in the US via your local Sikkens dealer.

Sooooooooo.... Has anyone tried this stuff yet???

I just don't want to deal with di-isocyanates and hopefully, this water based stuff will be great for the hobbyist. (haha, yeah right, that would be too good to be true.)

Regards
Tom

 

[shmoos]

stick with BASF. That's what my family sells.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

is BASF water based?

 

[Freddog11]

All of the major manufacturers, BASF, Dupont, Sikkens, PPG, Sherwin Williams, have water based product available, all of it is junk. The polyisocyanates that you fear are what make your paint job adhesive and durable. I worked for PPG for 16 years both as a chemist and as a field rep. and tested many different WB products from all of the major brands and I wouldn't use any of them on my wheelbarrow. Get yourself some good lead-free, low VOC product from any of the above manufacturers (not a big Sherwin Williams fan but Maaco loves the stuff) and a good respirator, then find a local body shop that will let you borrow their booth for a couple hours and lay down some good color that will last. Better yet, find a good painter that wants to make a couple bucks on the side and have him do it.

By the way, the other issue that I did not cover before is recoat sensitivity. If you paint it with WB paint that's all you can put on top of it in case of a touch-up or repaint. Solvent based paints will wrinkle it up like you wouldn't believe.

 

[Matt M PA]

I have a friend with a shop where I took my Viper for a very small repair to the quarter panel. It was a couple of small chips that drive me nuts. You could have covered either one with your pinky finger nail.

(I had taken it to my usual shop and they could not get a match with standard paints.)

Anyhow...this shop did some research, and matched my color 100%...and I am very particular...with water based BASF. According to them, the Viper panels of my era were painted with water based from the factory. Best of all, they blended the area without painting the entire panel or going into adjacent panels. Finally....the finish is as smooth as any other part of the car. I have no issues with water based paint from my experience.

I will add however, that this shop has become a bit of a training facility for other shops and BASF, so possibly there is a degree of instruction required to get the finish right?

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Looks like the "nasty" ingredient is 2-butoxyethanol which is not unlike antifreeze and is also used in some cleaners/degreasers. (What is interesting is that MSDS says it is absorbed through the skin and can cause liver and kidney damage - the interesting part is that this stuff can be found in some cleaners in the kitchen and people don't know how "dangerous" it is.)

It is the primary ingredient of Castron Super Purple Degreaser if I remember properly and also in the post-Castrol: Super Clean. And I have gotten it on my hands and inhaled the spray mist.

While toxic, I don't think it is anywhere in the league of isocyanate.

If you buy sodium chloride as a reagent from a chemical supply house, there will be a POISON label on the bottle that makes you think you're handling plutonium.

There's nothing greater than our "Chicken Little the Sky is Falling" Society!

Tom

 

[Tom and Vipers]

I was just thinking about the 2000 GTS I bot new and the paint just felt really funny when I touched it with my fingertip or fingernail(!)

It felt like some kind of extremely hard rubber.

What was interesting about this was, that front end seemed immune to stone chips. I had a 98 Z28 black that had a white spec for, I swear, each and ever grain of sand that bounced off the front end.

The Viper paint accumulated about 1 bone fide stone chip per 1000 miles. But the real bonus was that the fracture surface did not turn white - it merely transmitted the color (red).

So, I speculate that this paint was water based.

Does anyone know for sure?

Thanks
Tom

PS. I would prefer this hard "rubber" over what ever they used on the Z28 - and it was hard too. It felt like a normal automotive paint. Nice and hard (and brittle).

PPS. Just talked to Reno Sikkens dealer and he saw first hand some of the work being done in Los Angeles where it is mandated and said that the water based paint was actually equal to or better to polyurethane in all ways. It is also somewhat more expensive, approximately 20% moreso. He feels that in 2 years, he will be carrying it in Reno not because of mandates, but because of its actual superiority. In particular, it appears to match colors better which is always the issue with spot repair. As far as drying, you basically need to blow air on it. I would think that low humidity areas like the desert will be a good match for this stuff. Supposedly, the Bay Area is next on the list so that by the time I'm actually ready to try it, I will be able to buy it in there. (Although any dealer can buy the product, you have to buy case lots of all the blend colors which is obviously not practical. But then, who knows, maybe Sikkens will make individual amounts available. Also, due to cost, everything will be available down to pint quantities.