Header collector gasket install

[DrumrBoy]

Question for those who've replaced the header gasket at the collector flange before.

Is it easier to do this by taking the sill off (easier access but more effort taking off and replacing sill) or to work in the tight confines underneath while the sills are on?

It looks like you could get to the three flange bolts from underneath (with some contortionist ability) but it looks like a PITA, so I'm guessing I should take the sills off.

Someone who's been there/done that , just tell me which is best.

Thx.

 

[dave6666]

You are talking about this one right?

Just take the heat shield off.

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[DrumrBoy]

Not exactly. Mine lookd different. I have only 1 connection..... a 5 into 1 collector mated to the exhaust in one big old 3-bolt flange. The configuration looks different from underneath as well. I'll add pix to mu post tonight.

 

[DrumrBoy]

Here's what mine look like:

The first pic is of the driver's side, the second is the passenger side. Both were taken standing under the oil pan shooting toward the backside of the wheel well.

On the driver's side, it looks like you can get to the bolts and nuts from this view....clearly with some effort, However, the topmost nut (on the side away from the photo) may be impossible to get a wrench or socket on. That's why I was askin' about the sills...with them gone you can see the backside of that flange very well and it would be easy....eacept for the getting the sills off part.

On the passenger's side, you'll notice a weld for a **** that was clearly done by a *****, but aside from that, notice that the near side (side with the headers) is connected to the engine and the far side (the side that goes to the sill pipe) seems welded to the hook....which is in turn attached to a structural member....so how the heck does one get the new gasket in there? Is there enough flex to pry 'em apart and insert the metal gasket?

Thanks for looking and for any advice you have.

 

[ViperTony]

Is there some sort of flex pipe in there somewhere? I'm wondering if you're experiencing exhaust leaks at that collector area? I can't really tell from the pics. I raise this because I had constant exhaust leaks with my old Borla headers. As it turns out, someone welded exhaust hangers to that turnout area. Since there was no flex pipe and the hangers were attached to that mounting bracket on the frame, there was no flex whatsoever in the system and that 3 bolt flange kept leaking. Problem went away when I got rid of the hangers. If you take your side-sills off you will see a rubber-like mounting bracket attached with two bolts used to hold that hook into place.

 

[dave6666]

My reply from yonder, the duplicate thread in the parallel forum.

http://forums.viperclub.org/2545410-post9.html

 

[DrumrBoy]

Dave,

The link to the other forum post doesn't seem to work. If it works for you, I'll try it again, though it appears that the thread is no longer there. What gives?

Bob

 

[dave6666]

Dave,

The link to the other forum post doesn't seem to work. If it works for you, I'll try it again, though it appears that the thread is no longer there. What gives?

Bob

Interesting...

You've already seen it though as you did reply to it.

Update...

I think someone deleted your other thread. Damn admins! That had good stuff in there!

 

[dave6666]

Again, since my other pics were deleted when your thread was deleted.

Actually, these are better pics.

The front mount should not be used, regardless of side or rear exhaust.

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The rear mount should be used, regardless of side or rear exhaust. My car is side exhaust, so this is the only mount actually.

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[Dan Cragin]

These can be done on the car without removing the sill. Use a gasket that contains a steel mesh with composite coating or a copper gasket. ARP bolts with pinch nuts expand less and reduce gasket failure. If the flanges are not flat, use a disc gringer to clean them up. if the flanges are still irregular a little cooper seal sealer will help seal it.

 

[DrumrBoy]

Thanks for the tips.

I raise this because I had constant exhaust leaks with my old Borla headers. As it turns out, someone welded exhaust hangers to that turnout area. Since there was no flex pipe and the hangers were attached to that mounting bracket on the frame, there was no flex whatsoever in the system and that 3 bolt flange kept leaking. Problem went away when I got rid of the hangers.

Exactly. I'll redo the front hangers (at least the one on the passenger side) since it appears to be welded at both ends....therefore no flex.



You've already seen it though as you did reply to it.

Update...

I think someone deleted your other thread. Damn admins! That had good stuff in there!

Dave, I did see it but when I went back to look at the pix again, it was gone. The whole thread was deleted because of one negative/edgey comment. Go figure. Thanks for the pic of the collector with the sill off. It appears that you're going "hangerless" in the front...I didn't see any hanger structure near the collector...or maybe i missed it.

These can be done on the car without removing the sill. Use a gasket that contains a steel mesh with composite coating or a copper gasket. ARP bolts with pinch nuts expand less and reduce gasket failure. If the flanges are not flat, use a disc gringer to clean them up. if the flanges are still irregular a little cooper seal sealer will help seal it.

Dan, agreed. There was a post a while back suggesting aJegs metal gasket works real well. If you have a different view, please mention the gasket of choice for DCP.....inexpensive gaskets are OK if they works well, but I'd rather do this operartion once in a while, not frequently!

 

[dave6666]

Yes, you are correct on no front hanger. That in effect would turn the whole header/collector into a flex joint if the exhaust was anchored at the frame cut out. With my Woodhouse mounts, the exhaust system really does not move at all any more. Even at the tips at the rear, without that rear hanger the pipe still does not move. Very rigid all down the side. Of course fully welding each joint - no clamps - helps give that rigidity.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

I tip my hat to anyone who can change the gaskets without removing the sills. I quickly gave up trying and just removed the sills. The sills are not very hard to remove.

Dave: Nice looking side exhaust! how much more noise in the cabin?

 

[dave6666]

The sills are not very hard to remove.

Dave: Nice looking side exhaust! how much more noise in the cabin?

I have become a freaking EXPERT on getting my sills on and off, fitting them and the exhaust. Probably 50 times on and off each side.

Freaking EXPERT!!!

So yeah, they are easy to get on ond off, especuially when you are an EXPERT.

Sorry. I'm better now.

The sound is yet to be realized inside the car as the car is still in mod mode. Plus, we're doing this...

About 16 to 18 pounds added for both sides.

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I should get the new side exhaust sills back on the weekend, as they are now painted.

Final step is all of the heat shielding I'll be building for the Belanger headers. Shoot man, I'm even modding my new bending brake! Make me stop!

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[ViperTony]

I have become a freaking EXPERT on getting my sills on and off, fitting them and the exhaust. Probably 50 times on and off each side.

Freaking EXPERT!!!

So yeah, they are easy to get on ond off, especuially when you are an EXPERT.

Sorry. I'm better now.

The sound is yet to be realized inside the car as the car is still in mod mode. Plus, we're doing this...

About 16 to 18 pounds added for both sides.
I should get the new side exhaust sills back on the weekend, as they are now painted.

Final step is all of the heat shielding I'll be building for the Belanger headers. Shoot man, I'm even modding my new bending brake! Make me stop!

Dave, do you notice any hot air making its way up into the cockpit from the shifter area, namely through that rubber boot? Mine does this. If I put my hand on the metal part of the shifter I will get burned. I think the solution is preventing the hot air from making it way up through the transmission tunnel from underneath. Any suggestions?

 

[dave6666]

Dave, do you notice any hot air making its way up into the cockpit from the shifter area, namely through that rubber boot? Mine does this. If I put my hand on the metal part of the shifter I will get burned. I think the solution is preventing the hot air from making it way up through the transmission tunnel from underneath. Any suggestions?

I do have the rubber boot BTW, as it was off in the pic. I went ahead and drilled out the rivets while the interior was stripped out, to make vacuuming that mess easier. I reattached it using rivet nuts and 10-32 screws. McMaster Carr part number...

Anyway, The only time I've noticed the shift rod is hot is after the car has been sitting. Maybe a little heat soak there. During driving, it is only a little warm.

My rubber boot does fit very snug on the black shift rod dampener piece. Maybe check your rubber boot fitment?

 

[DrumrBoy]

Dave, is that Dynamat or heat shielding material? If its Dynamat, I think you'll be amazed at the sound/harmonic differences in the cabin when you're done.

Sill removal for me in the next few days...I hope to not become a freakin' expert but I know where one is if I get stuck. Thanks for the info on the hangers too.

 

[dave6666]

Dave, is that Dynamat or heat shielding material? If its Dynamat, I think you'll be amazed at the sound/harmonic differences in the cabin when you're done.

Sill removal for me in the next few days...I hope to not become a freakin' expert but I know where one is if I get stuck. Thanks for the info on the hangers too.

I used Second Skin Damplifier. Sound deadening and heat shielding.

Noise Reduction and Sound Deadener

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

Dave, is that Dynamat or heat shielding material? If its Dynamat, I think you'll be amazed at the sound/harmonic differences in the cabin when you're done.

Sill removal for me in the next few days...I hope to not become a freakin' expert but I know where one is if I get stuck. Thanks for the info on the hangers too.

The hardest part for me is getting those plastic plugs out. I use a feeler gauge and a small screw driver. I just replace them if I damage them, so I don't waste a lot of time on them.

I use a magnet to help get the screws started on install.

You might find that some of the screws strip when reinstalling. I just use the next size up sheet metal screw.

Once you get the hang of it, you can get them on / off in a few minutes.

 

[DrumrBoy]

Thanks Purdue. I'll have at it this weekend.

 

[ViperTony]

I do have the rubber boot BTW, as it was off in the pic. I went ahead and drilled out the rivets while the interior was stripped out, to make vacuuming that mess easier. I reattached it using rivet nuts and 10-32 screws. McMaster Carr part number...

Anyway, The only time I've noticed the shift rod is hot is after the car has been sitting. Maybe a little heat soak there. During driving, it is only a little warm.

My rubber boot does fit very snug on the black shift rod dampener piece. Maybe check your rubber boot fitment?

My rubber boot shredded but when it was intact I still noticed the hot air coming through. I also changed to a short throw shifter last year so I probably don't have as much of tight seal with the boot as I did with the stock shifter. I'm about to apply second skin and replace the boot soon.

 

[DrumrBoy]

Allrighty then.

The sills came off in 5 minutes....I'm guessing lining them up is a bit more effort than getting them off but its straightforward enough.

I had to take one section of pipe out so I could clean up the flanges and get that burned RTV out of there. Nice craftsmanship indeed.

I used a Jeg's copper gasket (with a little crush bump as well) bolted everything up and can still feel a leak. Dammit.

I took it all apart again and checked to see if the flages are straight/flat and they appear to be very flat. The leak is just a tiny one, but while I'm in there I want to get it done right so it stays good for a while.

Any ideas? Thicker gasket? Different metal gasket? Dan, are the mesh-containing ones thicker?

Any words of counsel or encouragement are welcome.

Off to the parts store....again.

 

[ViperTony]

Allrighty then.

The sills came off in 5 minutes....I'm guessing lining them up is a bit more effort than getting them off but its straightforward enough.

I had to take one section of pipe out so I could clean up the flanges and get that burned RTV out of there. Nice craftsmanship indeed.

I used a Jeg's copper gasket (with a little crush bump as well) bolted everything up and can still feel a leak. Dammit.

I took it all apart again and checked to see if the flages are straight/flat and they appear to be very flat. The leak is just a tiny one, but while I'm in there I want to get it done right so it stays good for a while.

Any ideas? Thicker gasket? Different metal gasket? Dan, are the mesh-containing ones thicker?

Any words of counsel or encouragement are welcome.

Off to the parts store....again.

I've been down this road with my Belanger collectors and I tried everything...RTV silicone, copper gaskets (both jegs and Mr. Gasket) and I ended up send it back to Lou Belanger who machined them flat. Since then, I've had no leaks. Like yours, my surfaces were not badly warped but there was just enough of a dimple to allow the leak. I can't remember who (Bolt?) ran into this issue and ended up using a graphite impregnated aluminum gasket there. I think it worked out for him. I'll search the threads and post the link.

 

[dave6666]

Tony's right, but here's some suggestions if you are bored.

-> Use sealer and the gasket. Be somewhat generous with the sealer, and allow to cure 24 hrs before starting car.

-> Have the rest of the pipe running down the sill loose when fitting the 3 bolt flange. You want the pipe to draw to the flange, not the flange to draw to the pipe.

 

[viperdude118]

I used an aluminum gasket from advanced auto, it is about an 1/8" thick. I just put my headers on last night. I drove around quite a bit, so far no leaks. I didn't use any rtv and the set was about 20 bucks.

 

[DrumrBoy]

Thanks for the history and ideas guys.

In the last of many attempts to use just a gasket yesterday, I ended up with the thick aluminum gasket described above. It crushes a bit and the leak was the smallest of any of the things I tried.

Two more Q's.

(1) will tightening the bolts when the system is really hot help any? I aped on them cold but of course, when they;'re hot they expand so pewrhaps tightening them hot will pull the flanges even closer together when its cold. Of course bolt breakage and burned hands are downsides.

(2) Per Dave's comment, I may give the sealer a try, is there a brand or type to recommend?

As someone posted a while back, its true, there is an amazing amount of crap that collects in the sills, little rocks, bits of rubber etc.....worth cleaning out once in a while!

 

[dave6666]

"Aping" on those flange bolts may actually contribute to them bending. A moderate torque is usually best. Yours look pretty thick though, thicker than me and Tony's Belanger flanges, so you are probably OK "aping."

You should not need to tighten the flanges hot. What I would do, is use some good high temp anti-seize, and do a re-torque (re-ape...) after a heat and cool cycle.

Use Permatex red or copper gasket maker, oxygen sensor friendly. Most big box auto chains have it.

Debris in the sills? Mine will shed it quickly. Or is that fill up with it quickly...

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[DrumrBoy]

Off to Auto Zone for some Permatex.

As I'll take everything apart again today - hey Father's Day, I'm allowed to pursue the insanity! - is there a torque recommendation?

Dave, the sills look great - 'been following the thread on the design/build for a while. Have you put 'em on and run it yet? Do the sills indeed stay Lone Star ice cold?

 

[dave6666]

Here are some generic torque figures.

Have not road tested the sills yet. Still working on stuff. Should start building the header heat shields next week. The final step to getting back on the road.

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[DrumrBoy]

Mille grazzi.

Off to the garage with the torque wrench and the copper gasket maker....

Good luck with the heat shields - summer's here!