SapphireGTS
Enthusiast
What heads/ valvetrain are people running. TNT seens to have a good deal on their heads. Anyone have any good/new exoerience on heads.
Thanks for any input any has?
Keith
Thanks for any input any has?
Keith
Heads
- Thread starter SapphireGTS
- Start date
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Greg Good who does the heads for TNT is the best in the business, but best costs what best should.
onerareviper
Enthusiast
Can someone explain the $5,000 (or whatever) price tag? Is it the parts, the labor, what? Not trying to be a smart ****, just need educated.
Anthony - 98 GTS
Enthusiast
Check with the Houston tuners - RSI or H.M.S - a local machine shop is doing Viper heads on a CNC machine and getting 300-310 cfm out of Gen II heads. 
Martin D
Enthusiast
Here is the deal. Try to find out what Greg is getting for flow numbers at 650 and 600. Then, ask what kind of RWHP their Heads and Cam cars are producing. The bottom line is that big power requires big flow in a NA application.
Once you get those answers, contact me, and I will give you the skinny on the numbers. It is true that the new CNC Gen II heads are flowing same crazy numbers - but they are gonna cost you.
On a final note, I am in the process of doing a stroker motor. I will be selling my Venom 650R heads and Cam. I know what they flow, and what kind of power I have. So, if you are interested in going that route, maybe we could work a deal.
Regards,
Once you get those answers, contact me, and I will give you the skinny on the numbers. It is true that the new CNC Gen II heads are flowing same crazy numbers - but they are gonna cost you.
On a final note, I am in the process of doing a stroker motor. I will be selling my Venom 650R heads and Cam. I know what they flow, and what kind of power I have. So, if you are interested in going that route, maybe we could work a deal.
Regards,
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
A set of heads are only as good as the porter. And CFM is only one factor - velocity is also very important. High CFM and poor velocity makes for a dog on the street until you spin it hard in the rpms.
CNC porting is only as good as the original template - it just means they all come out the same.
By hand - to do a good set of V10 heads from scratch could take an easy 4 hours per port - they'll set them up on a flow bench for baseline readings then reset them up at various stages along the way to monitor progress and ensure they are heading in the right direction, then cc and perform a final reading. So there could easily be 80 hours work at $60 per hour for a top shelf job - and for my money I'd pay Ray Barton to do that kind of work for me because there is no one better I know on heads in the Mopar camp. The average tuners can't compete with that kind of experience for a custom job. Heads are a lifetime commitment to be an expert on - one small nick can change the flow characteristics.
Why are CNC heads so expensive - the guys are trying to recoup all the development time and effort into getting their heads where they want them - they probably went thru a few sets of heads to get it "right", and a lot of trial and error to achieve close to what someone like Ray could do straight off by hand. That's why his engines have held the world SS/AA record for more years than I can recall running 8's on carbs and stock factory chamber cc's and weighing 3000lbs - it's all in the heads and airflow from intake.
There's one or two people around good enough to look at heads and know exactly what and where to work and be 100% correct. They are like rocking horse poo - very rare. For the rest - it's trial and error - their CFM readings are a guide - but to see how well they work you'd need to see dyno results and how much power they make down low, how they drive etc. The best street heads will flow a lot more but not lose any significant bottom end.
CNC porting is only as good as the original template - it just means they all come out the same.
By hand - to do a good set of V10 heads from scratch could take an easy 4 hours per port - they'll set them up on a flow bench for baseline readings then reset them up at various stages along the way to monitor progress and ensure they are heading in the right direction, then cc and perform a final reading. So there could easily be 80 hours work at $60 per hour for a top shelf job - and for my money I'd pay Ray Barton to do that kind of work for me because there is no one better I know on heads in the Mopar camp. The average tuners can't compete with that kind of experience for a custom job. Heads are a lifetime commitment to be an expert on - one small nick can change the flow characteristics.
Why are CNC heads so expensive - the guys are trying to recoup all the development time and effort into getting their heads where they want them - they probably went thru a few sets of heads to get it "right", and a lot of trial and error to achieve close to what someone like Ray could do straight off by hand. That's why his engines have held the world SS/AA record for more years than I can recall running 8's on carbs and stock factory chamber cc's and weighing 3000lbs - it's all in the heads and airflow from intake.
There's one or two people around good enough to look at heads and know exactly what and where to work and be 100% correct. They are like rocking horse poo - very rare. For the rest - it's trial and error - their CFM readings are a guide - but to see how well they work you'd need to see dyno results and how much power they make down low, how they drive etc. The best street heads will flow a lot more but not lose any significant bottom end.
HP
Enthusiast
Well said!
onerareviper
Enthusiast
Martin Drucker,
You got mail - In your VCA inbox.
Thanks.
You got mail - In your VCA inbox.
Thanks.
Martin D
Enthusiast
Hey - I just Replied!
Thanks!
Thanks!
Martin D
Enthusiast
Yes, I did..... I am just slow to respond. I could not get on the VCA site at all yesterday. I have responded to you as well.
Regards,
Regards,
Tom Welch
Enthusiast
Heads?? and their relationship to performance gains.....like it or not BTR is at the top of a short list. Want proof?
Stock CI V-10
Stock Internals
Stock Throttle Bodies
Stock Intake
Stock clutch, flywheel, transmission and gearing
Just our Stage 2 Head package, exhaust system, and Nitrous nets the times and horsepower and torque below.
Our Viper head package cars make between 510-525 naturally aspirated RWHP depending upon cam selection with NO POOR DRIVABILITY. Please refer to our "total horsepower" philosophy at our website at the link below. Nuff said!
Tom
Stock CI V-10
Stock Internals
Stock Throttle Bodies
Stock Intake
Stock clutch, flywheel, transmission and gearing
Just our Stage 2 Head package, exhaust system, and Nitrous nets the times and horsepower and torque below.
Our Viper head package cars make between 510-525 naturally aspirated RWHP depending upon cam selection with NO POOR DRIVABILITY. Please refer to our "total horsepower" philosophy at our website at the link below. Nuff said!
Tom
Martin D
Enthusiast
Folks, It's all in the numbers!
Regards,
Regards,
Saturday, a guy with a long time involvement in various motorsports AND who is just putting the finishing touches on his +700hp (8.5psi) Roe Viper told me of a head porter in the northwest Metro Detroit area who is supposed to be the only guy to get a gain of over 60hp with what he does to Viper heads. $4000 was the figure I was told. That's all I know, I can find out more Thursday..
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
That guy might be good - but I'd be careful - the world is full of back yard heros. As for being the only one to achieve 60hp out of a set of heads on a Viper..... I'd just say I don't believe that.
I'd like to see a before and after flowbench set of results and dyno results. Losing 30hp in the low end to pick up 60hp in the top end may not be what the customer wants, hp can be manipulated far more than people think.
A good power package in a street engine makes plenty of power "under the curve" - we hear that often - what it means is if you were to take an average of the total power made within the useable rpm range at WOT - say from 2500rpm to 6200rpm - have you gained much in a before and after test? Peak power may go up 60hp but it is possible average power went down - that would be a serious bummer.
It is also a good way to compare engines but requires a computer to work it out unfortunately. You can tell visually by looking at dyno graphs - two tuners may make similar peak power but one may build power early and it carries on into the top end making a very fat curve. A fat power curve will have a lot more SOTP power thru the range and be potentially quicker than a slightly higher but peaky curve.
The peaky power engines require close ratio gears to take advantage of their small rpm power advantage.
as it relates to heads - fat curve vs peaky curve relates to how the heads have been done. A great set of heads will flow better at low lifts as well as high lifts - providing a fat curve by maintaining excellent velocity as well as building more cfm. A "race" set of heads may flow great at 0.700" lift but lose so much velocity at low lifts - it stumbles and loses a lot of power in the lower rpms ranges - making for a peaky curve.
Let's say 2 engines make 600hp. But one makes 300hp at 3000rpm while the other makes 400hp at 3000rpm. Which car will pull which on a roll on in the same gear from 3000rpm? No brainer.
Both cars have the same peak power but one has 100hp more at 3000rpm - that's a huge difference and it will maintain that lead until the other engine matches it high up in the range - by which time the first car has pulled several lengths. Extreme example but in the blown cars - that is a common comparison.
Back to the 60hp claim - its a start but it only tells a small part of the story.
I'd like to see a before and after flowbench set of results and dyno results. Losing 30hp in the low end to pick up 60hp in the top end may not be what the customer wants, hp can be manipulated far more than people think.
A good power package in a street engine makes plenty of power "under the curve" - we hear that often - what it means is if you were to take an average of the total power made within the useable rpm range at WOT - say from 2500rpm to 6200rpm - have you gained much in a before and after test? Peak power may go up 60hp but it is possible average power went down - that would be a serious bummer.
It is also a good way to compare engines but requires a computer to work it out unfortunately. You can tell visually by looking at dyno graphs - two tuners may make similar peak power but one may build power early and it carries on into the top end making a very fat curve. A fat power curve will have a lot more SOTP power thru the range and be potentially quicker than a slightly higher but peaky curve.
The peaky power engines require close ratio gears to take advantage of their small rpm power advantage.
as it relates to heads - fat curve vs peaky curve relates to how the heads have been done. A great set of heads will flow better at low lifts as well as high lifts - providing a fat curve by maintaining excellent velocity as well as building more cfm. A "race" set of heads may flow great at 0.700" lift but lose so much velocity at low lifts - it stumbles and loses a lot of power in the lower rpms ranges - making for a peaky curve.
Let's say 2 engines make 600hp. But one makes 300hp at 3000rpm while the other makes 400hp at 3000rpm. Which car will pull which on a roll on in the same gear from 3000rpm? No brainer.
Both cars have the same peak power but one has 100hp more at 3000rpm - that's a huge difference and it will maintain that lead until the other engine matches it high up in the range - by which time the first car has pulled several lengths. Extreme example but in the blown cars - that is a common comparison.
Back to the 60hp claim - its a start but it only tells a small part of the story.
Oh I understand the point completely. That's the first thing I said was that just becausee a guy has a diegrinder doesn't mean he's doing it right. I don't know any more about the porter at this point. I'll be seeing the guy who related that to me again Thursday at the Wixom,MI Regional Rendevous barbeque at RM Corporation. His company is one of the sponsors. I'll see if I can get some contact information for him or the porter then.
Bugeater
Enthusiast
I thought I saw a thread a few months back where Jason Heffner chimed in and said he could swap out your stock heads for a set of his ported ones for around 3K, and definately get over 500RWHP....
Jason, I dont want to overstep any bounds here, but am I right or wrong?
If so, thats 60HP to the wheels. Easily.
Jason, I dont want to overstep any bounds here, but am I right or wrong?
If so, thats 60HP to the wheels. Easily.
I have tried most of the head porters in the business over the years and there are many things to consider. Core shift in the Gen 2 heads is a big problem and the best flowing heads on the exhaust side can lead to major problems (cracked exhaust ports and coolant leaks). Spring pressure is also a big issue, proper pressure is good for hp depending on the cam selection but lifters can wear out in as little as 4000 miles. The valve seats can fall out if overheated or the engine goes into valve float to much. The factory two piece valves can break the tips off and cause a major repair.
The point is, you need to decide the application for your engine. If you are going to race or use a forced induction system you need to spend the money to do it right. New valve seats, guides,
proper valves, springs, retainers etc. This can cost money. You can get some great numbers on a budget with stock conponents but you risk problems down the road.
For those of you interested. Ther gen 3 heads will fit a Gen 2 engine with a header flange change and the performance is better than the Gen 2 heads. We are looking into this and will let you know.
The point is, you need to decide the application for your engine. If you are going to race or use a forced induction system you need to spend the money to do it right. New valve seats, guides,
proper valves, springs, retainers etc. This can cost money. You can get some great numbers on a budget with stock conponents but you risk problems down the road.
For those of you interested. Ther gen 3 heads will fit a Gen 2 engine with a header flange change and the performance is better than the Gen 2 heads. We are looking into this and will let you know.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Good post DC.... you summed it up!
Bugeater
Enthusiast
Dan,
To clarify, the Gen 3 heads outperform a stock gen 2 head, correct? You didnt mean to say gen 3 outperforms a ported gen 2..right?
Have you or anyone started porting the gen3's?
To clarify, the Gen 3 heads outperform a stock gen 2 head, correct? You didnt mean to say gen 3 outperforms a ported gen 2..right?
Have you or anyone started porting the gen3's?
Martin D
Enthusiast
Bugeater,
The stock Gen III heads can out perform some gen II ported heads.
And yes, someone has started porting Gen III heads!!!!
Regards,
The stock Gen III heads can out perform some gen II ported heads.
And yes, someone has started porting Gen III heads!!!!
Regards,
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