High Octane Fuels (101, 105+) in a Viper?!?

[Bolax]

I have always found that running a tank of 101 Octane fuel through my previous performance vehicles (M3, 944 Turbo) two or three times a year has really done a nice job cleaning out deposits. Much better than the junk cleaners they sell to clean the combustion chambers. Another great thing is that it's a blast to drive around with the extra HP (provided the vehicle has a knock sensor and will adjust the timing to take adventage). A few months ago I ran a tank of 105 (unleaded of course) through my 97 GTS and WOW! It made quite a difference. I'd guess at least 50HP over the 91 Octane crap they sell on the corner. It helps that the race fuels are all fuel too. Not 10 or 20% detergent and additives that don't burn. Of course when the fuel runs out so does the added fun. My question is: Has anyone ever encountered a problem running high octane fuels in a GTS? I've never heard of such a thing but I don't want to find out the hard way. I thought I'd ask the experts here and see what you thought.

 

[RedGTS]

Another great thing is that it's a blast to drive around with the extra HP (provided the vehicle has a knock sensor and will adjust the timing to take adventage). A few months ago I ran a tank of 105 (unleaded of course) through my 97 GTS and WOW! It made quite a difference. I'd guess at least 50HP over the 91 Octane crap they sell on the corner.

What would account for this given that the Viper does not have a knock sensor?

 

[V10 MOJO]

ive always heard its not good to do on a stock viper??

 

[Bolax]

What would account for this given that the Viper does not have a knock sensor?

The concentration of the fuel for one. No being dilluted with other chemicals such as detergents and additives. Also even without a knock sensor some performance gain will be had because of more instantaneous and thorough combustion. If there is no knock sensor in the Viper then I would gues that the performace was a combination of the more complete combustion and the cleaning effect on the spark plugs and such. The fact that the car's gas mileage went up about 8% and has remained there ever since on pump gas tells me that it did something good.

This user to be common practice back in the day. People would take their car out on the highway outside the city and "blow it out". Of course back then the gas was leaded and had plenty of octane points to spare so it was the hard driving that was credited.

Maybe my plugs were just a dirty from the 1400 mile trip from CA to OK and the strong burn cleaned them off?!? Maybe the next time it won't make such a difference. Sounds like something to check out.

 

[Russ M]

Bolax,

Unless your car had fuel in it that was below 91 octane I dont see how you felt a difference. It may be that you got a bad batch of gas from where ever you fill up, and adding the 105 stuff caused the car to stop detonating.

Higher octane fuel in a car that does not need it will will make less power rather than more. I would say it is all in your head just like the 50hp Vipair seat of the pants test as experienced by some on this board.

 

[ViperRay]

I agree with Russ. Unless you have some high compression heads there, the higher octane is a waste of money, at best.

 

[Dave's Big Brakes]

Yeah , but it smells really good

 

[Bolax]

I would say it is all in your head just like the 50hp Vipair seat of the pants test as experienced by some on this board.

I wouldn't put money on "50HP" but there was certainly a difference in pull during that tank and also in fuel efficiency since then. Also, the engine had a much stronger sounding idle.

I would like to know if anyone else has ran 100 octane or higher fuel in their non-force fed Viper and what they have noticed. If I am alone here then I am putting my money on the possibility that the hard running with the pure fuel "blew it out" and now it's running like it should have been all along. I haven't repeated this process to see if the results will be the same.

Sounds like a good excuse for a dyno comparison.

 

[joe117]

You can do the dyno comparison if you want to spend the money.
The truth is,
there is no dilution due to detergents and additives,

there is no science to "blowing it out" with high octane gas,

there is no more power available in high octane gas.

If you do not agree with me on these points, let's hear the science behind your claims.

The only advantage to high octane gas is that you can use a higher compression ratio with the higher octane.
If you don't take advantage of this, you will see no gain from the higher octane.

Do you think that high octane gas is somehow more powerful?

Do you think that high octane gas causes less residue in your engine?

Would you buy a Vipair, guaranteed to give you 50hp sotp feel?

Well?

 

[GR8_ASP]

Without being too critical I have to say almost everything you said was all wet. That is except that cars with active knock control have improved power with higher octane fuel. That is up to a point. Most are only mapped up to a certain point, meaning 105 octane would not perform better than 100.

Higher octane fuels do not have more enegry potential than lower octane. In fact it may bt the inverse. The difference is the rate of burn under high temperature and pressure is decreased. That allows the spark to occur earlier without the dreaded detonation (knock) or pre-ignition. The amount of detergents and other additives is extremely small, and should not have a measureable impact on performance.

Now on a second thought are you sure that you did not test the fuel yourself. That could explain everything

 

[Silver Snake]

Hahahaha!!! Dave I should have known you would be posting this. I'll bet you like to sniff model glue as well.

Mark

Yeah , but it smells really good

 

[Ulysses]

I have used High Octane at the track when I have run dry and didn't have the time to drive off into town and fill at the nearest station. I didn't feel a difference in performance either way.

 

[Bolax]

You can do the dyno comparison if you want to spend the money.
The truth is,
there is no dilution due to detergents and additives,

there is no science to "blowing it out" with high octane gas,

there is no more power available in high octane gas.

If you do not agree with me on these points, let's hear the science behind your claims.

The only advantage to high octane gas is that you can use a higher compression ratio with the higher octane.
If you don't take advantage of this, you will see no gain from the higher octane.

Do you think that high octane gas is somehow more powerful?

Do you think that high octane gas causes less residue in your engine?

Would you buy a Vipair, guaranteed to give you 50hp sotp feel?

Well?

WOW, someone sure took this personally. I didn't realize all viper owners were scientists. My only question was would it hurt the engine. Yes or No. I think I'll just stick to calling the helpful people at the viper performance shops when I have a question rather than be called a liar by someone I've never met.

Oh by the way. I didn't pay one cent for the gas. Wouldn't you run it for free too?

Thanks for the warm welcome to the viper forum everyone!

 

[GR8_ASP]

Ah don't take it so seriously. No one came on strong here (but believe me the Forum can bite on occasion).

I think most reaction was because of the performance claims which to my knowledge isn't true. But I reread your post and your question anout harming the engine wasn't really answered. The answer is no it shouldn't harm it but it also shouldn't help it. And if you get 101 octane fuel for free 2 or 3 times a year (1st time you mentioned it was free) could you share the source. For free I would run it (without any high expectations).

BTW a means the comment should be taken in jest in a similar manner to j/k.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

50HP? :rofl:

Try a type R sticker next.

bwahaha

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Thanks for the warm welcome to the viper forum everyone!

LOL If you think that was rough don't go to "the alley."

 

[ViperRay]

Bolax,
Really, don't take it personally. One thing I've learned in the short time I've been monitoring and participating in this forum is this: Never make any claims about anything increasing horsepower whether actual or SOTP without also posting the dyno graphs. Even then, it will have to be SAE corrected and we probably still won't believe it unless it's been verified by others and backed up by solid science.
Stick with us. We're a tough bunch but I learn something every day here. You know there are more opinions than a$$holes so take it in stride. Good luck with the car.

 

[ChoiceViper]

...what Ray said....

 

[Bolax]

Bolax,
Really, don't take it personally. One thing I've learned in the short time I've been monitoring and participating in this forum is this: Never make any claims about anything increasing horsepower whether actual or SOTP without also posting the dyno graphs. Even then, it will have to be SAE corrected and we probably still won't believe it unless it's been verified by others and backed up by solid science.
Stick with us. We're a tough bunch but I learn something every day here. You know there are more opinions than a$$holes so take it in stride. Good luck with the car.

Thanks Ray. I guess I should have just shortened the post to "Will 105 octane gas damage my car?" Oh by the way for anyone interested, I found out that the TrackTek 105 gas I ran contains 17% ETBE which nets 2.7% oxygen by weight. While the oxygen **can** (didn't say would) bump power a bit, most race fuel distributers don't reccommend running it all the time with a stock fuel setup unless you are certain that any rubber sections in the fuel lines are rated for it. They indicated that when it sits in these rubber hoses for prolonged amounts of time (months) it **can** soften them. Extreme cases especially in vehicles with high fuel pressure **could** (didn't say would) cause blistering of the hose. They did say that periodic use even with non rated lines **should** (see above) be no problem at all. The only negative side effect of going too extreme with the octane would be a loss of power but 105 **should** be well below that number. As for their reccommendation... Run at least 93 to compensate for any possible variations in refinement (92 is not sold here) and only run fuel with ETBE for track days or special occasions.

I explained my situation and they said ETBE also has been known to assist in dissolving crud from injectors and fuel filters. Thay **believe** this coupled with the oxygen explains the difference I felt. Mainly because of the increase in mileage.

DISCLAIMER: The testimony contained in these statemen.... blah blah. Just kidding. Glad to be part of the Viper family

 

[RedSnakeGTS]

Bolax, you should go to www. v i p e r a l l e y . com (no spaces). they'd love it

 

[utahviper]

I have ran higher octane on the dyno and I lost power in my supercharged car. When I mean I lost power I mean that I left my setup exactly the same and the only change was in the fuel. Lost ~15rwhp.

However, if I run higher octane with a car that has a knock sensor or I can increase the timing some way then I would actually gain power. Turbo and SC cars run more octane so the car can run more boost/timing.

I have also run more octane on my snowmobile on the dyno and I lost 7-8hp(220HP motor) from 110 octane to 100 octane.

I hope this helps. ALso, I wouldn't run high octane in a car with cats unless you know it is unleaded. Most of the race gas out there is leaded.

 

[BigCarrot]

You are an idiot. Please DO take that personally! Hey, while I have you here, I have this property in Arizona....

 

[Bolax]

I have ran higher octane on the dyno and I lost power in my supercharged car. When I mean I lost power I mean that I left my setup exactly the same and the only change was in the fuel. Lost ~15rwhp.

However, if I run higher octane with a car that has a knock sensor or I can increase the timing some way then I would actually gain power. Turbo and SC cars run more octane so the car can run more boost/timing.

I have also run more octane on my snowmobile on the dyno and I lost 7-8hp(220HP motor) from 110 octane to 100 octane.

I hope this helps. ALso, I wouldn't run high octane in a car with cats unless you know it is unleaded. Most of the race gas out there is leaded.

Thanks for the first hand info. After talking with a fuel expert I believe that my gains came from the oxygen and the cleaning effect the solvents had. Basically it restored power I had lost by cleaning the injectors and maybe freeing up the filter a bit. No "new" power. I think the oxygen issue is interesting. It sounds like a valid principle because it allows for more complete combustion but what amount is enough to make a difference? Nitrous works on this principle but with the nitrogen to act as a buffer and carry away the extra heat generated. These fuels don't have the buffer so any extra heat generated by the oxygen must be dissipated conventionally. So in theory, if the oxygen in nitrous can generate 50-300+ horesepower then I would assume that adding the oxygen to fuel should net something. (at least .00001 HP) Sorry to bore you all. This stuff is just interesting to me.

Hey, it just might give me the edge I need over that 17 second Civic. Have you seen the spoiler on that thing?!?

 

[Bolax]

You are an idiot. Please DO take that personally! Hey, while I have you here, I have this property in Arizona....

Ah yes, name calling. The sign of pure genius. You should run for office.

 

[Toby]

I hear if you put your Viper in the gear that says R...it makes it go "R"eal fast...if it doesn't go in easy...just force it. Works better too when you are going over 100 MPH.

 

[BigCarrot]

You are an idiot. Please DO take that personally! Hey, while I have you here, I have this property in Arizona....

Ah yes, name calling. The sign of pure genius. You should run for office.

Thanks sport! I am a pretty sharp cookie! You, on the other hand......

 

[BigCarrot]

I hear if you put your Viper in the gear that says R...it makes it go "R"eal fast...if it doesn't go in easy...just force it. Works better too when you are going over 100 MPH.

Toby, you and I both know that it only works if you have a full tank of rocket fuel. Don't mislead the poor chap!

 

[RedGTS]

ALso, I wouldn't run high octane in a car with cats unless you know it is unleaded. Most of the race gas out there is leaded.

Good advice, but even catless cars shouldn't run leaded fuel regularly because it will coat your oxygen sensors.

 

[Bolax]

Well this has been fun. Thanks to those of you who actually had some first hand knowledge on this issue. This forum sure didn't turn out to be what I expected. I thought it would be a place for friendly and fun conversation between owners. I see now that this is not the case. Everyone is out to disprove what others say. Like it's a competition. I've been involved with car clubs for nearly 10 years and I've never seen a group that gets such satisfaction out of mistreating potential friends/members. I must say, so far the VCA is a disappointment.

 

[Silver Snake]

I hear if you put your Viper in the gear that says R...it makes it go "R"eal fast...if it doesn't go in easy...just force it. Works better too when you are going over 100 MPH.

Is that like "R" as in Type R! Yeah, That makes sense.

Mark