How much better are the 01-02 ABS brakes

[natsfan]

Hello all,

Looking to get either a 96/97 or 01/02 viper. I really like the B&W 96/97 but would get an 01/02 if ABS is a significant improvement. Was ABS added to increase performance on the track or for safety in bad weather driving?

I'm leaving the car stock and will give up my favorite color for a good gain in performance.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Dom426h]

Three questions for you:
1. Have you driven a car without abs? If yes, how did it work out for you?
2. On your cars with abs how often do you brake past the limit that induces wheel slippage triggering the abs?
3. Are you primarily concerned about dry conditions, or do you plan on driving your future Viper in the rain?

 

[natsfan]

Three questions for you:
1. Have you driven a car without abs? If yes, how did it work out for you?
2. On your cars with abs how often do you brake past the limit that induces wheel slippage triggering the abs?
3. Are you primarily concerned about dry conditions, or do you plan on driving your future Viper in the rain?

Let's see:

1. Yes, 65 mustang. Worked great for me.
2. Only in the snow when the car slides on ice.
3. Only by mistake.

Did I just answer my own question? LOL

Thanks for the post DOM426h.

 

[Viper98912]

Doesn't bother me in my 97.

 

[Mopar Steve]

No ABS on my 2000 and I was able to out brake many later model ABS cars at road Atlanta. Did have better track pads, fluid, etc. But no ABS.

 

[SquadXX]

ive had both, 2000 and an 2001 and from experience... prefer ABS after panic braking and flat spotting 2 sets of tires. Give me ABS any day and yes, Im sure the flat spots came from my lack of experience in braking.

 

[Tagoo]

My first viper was a 2002. I auto-crossed it and the brakes worked fine (fronts didn't lock up). I later traded for a 2000 (wanted a gray/silver striped car instead of red). I did lock the front brakes on the 2000 at an autocross (flat-spotted my tires - but the tires were old). I put Tom's rear brake upgrade on my 2000 and have never had the front brakes lock up since then either at auto-crosses or on a road course.

 

[ViperJohn]

ABS is something that you are always better having, especially on the street.

 

[Timnineside]

First actual car having ABS is my 08. Had a 99 GTS and never noticed I didn't have it. I drive a lot and the car did awesome. Never flat spotted tires. It took me a lot to get use to being able to slam the brakes on the 08 and trust it to actually work. To be honest I still don't trust it and always threshold brake anyways until I slip up.

-Tim

 

[Paul Hawker]

Brakes on my 96 were horrid. They had poor front/rear balance. Would flat spot left front all the time at Willow Springs. They faded badly when hot. You would get the warning from a soft pedal then they were gone on the next application. The factory brake pads produced lots of brake dust, and cleaning wheels was something that needed to be done after every outting.

There were work arounds with aftermarket brakes, pads, fluids and air deflectors, but stock they were pretty bad, especially when considering the tremendous output from the V-10.

Several times the brakes would not even be up to enthusiastic street driving. They were the weak spot on the car for me. Even down hill freeway off ramps could evoke braking issues.

The ABS made significant improvement on safety in my opinion. You could slam on your brakes in an emergency, and the computer would take care of all the details, while you could still steer around any obstacles. A nice improvement. If one wheel locked up, the others would still function.

The biggest improvement of all was when the Gen III was released. All of a sudden Vipers had world class braking capabilities. Very little fade, firm pedal, and enough weight transfer that the car would stop as well as it would go. This made for a much better performance balanced car, and safety took a huge leap forward. Even the hard riding and much maligned run flat tires worked great under aggressive braking.

All Generation Vipers share the same basic DNA, however some are more evolved than others.

Gen IV's were even better with improved ABS, and the tire technology took things up even another notch.

No experience really on the Gen V, however I believe braking performance is pretty much a non issue except under extreme track conditions.

 

[steve e]

IN my 95 RT10 flat spotted the tires in a triple 360 spin, thought I was a good driver, but in a panic situation eyes were closed foot to floor Learned allot since then. 99 GTS brakes great, not sure if they are any better than my 95, or I have become a better driver ABS is nice to have.

 

[denniskgb]

ABS is the only reason i bought a 2002 GTS. Do not care for forged motors, STOPPING the car was my priority.

 

[BW96snake]

Cheaper to add ABS later than repainting the car to your fav color.. just saying in case you want both.

I had the same thoughts; went with the color equipped with monster Brembo front and back. Love it

 

[46hemi]

If I have a choice ABS is a no brainer (for me). If you are looking for a 1970 Coronet then you have no choice, if you are looking for a Gen 2 then I would sacrifice color overt ABS. Juste my 2 cents.

 

[daveg]

I live in the north-east and drive 100 miles a day in snow / rain etc in a 3000gt with no ABS... If I don't need it in that car, I certainly don't need it in my 96 B/W. As stated before, first year GTS, B/W color, forged motor, lumpy cam, stripes through plate, possibly collector in the future, see ya ABS!

 

[Indy]

I guess driver skill plays a big part here as well as tires. In the end, ABS is an extra safety feature, but in most driving, you will never notice a difference. Most professional race cars don't have ABS, even the high tech F1 cars can do without it. They rely on the right tires and the driver

 

[Paul Hawker]

Most every race driver that is allowed to run ABS will run it. Most of the ones driving without ABS are is series that do not allow their use or where it is not cost effective to add it in. Heck, even my dinosaur Harley-Davidson has ABS brakes. Believe it is even illegal for a high volume US manufacturer to even sell a non ABS auto anymore. I know in Europe it has been illegal since 2007.

I also agree the emotional decision to own a spectacularly beautiful B/W GTS will often win over the intellectual decision for the technology of ABS. Hard to find fault with either decision.

Don't forget…Brakes just slow you down.

 

[Grisoman]

AFAIK ABS always yields the quickest stop by keeping the tires planted to the road where friction can do its job in decelerating the car. That was a top consideration for me in my Gen 2 search. While highly skilled drivers can approach the stopping efficiency of ABS in a non-ABS car, most don't fall in that category. What you might consider is upgrading your stopping power with larger calipers and rotors.

 

[Ron]

I second the positive impact on braking balance using Tom's 40mm OEM appearing rear calipers on an otherwise stock 1996 GTS. Never had an issue with locking the wheels on the occasional Viper Days track event, nor with fading using fresh SRF brake fluid and the Porsche Air Deflectors with stock pads. That said, I'm certainly not the fastest guy on the track. For me and my usage (90% street, good weather driving), color trumps ABS.

 

[7TH_SIGN]

Can you threshold brake?

 

[Fatboy 18]

Gen 2 stock brakes are Cra....p. Even at slow speeds you can lock the fronts up really easy. The Brake bias is set something like 70 front - 30 rear (or that's what it feels like)

I have also experienced all the things Paul was talking about at Track days, brake fade etc.

Being on a budget I converted to the 40mm Rear calliper upgrade and stainless steel lines, Massive difference It changes the brake bias to more like 60 front - 40 rear, the car feels much better balanced, yes I can still lock up the fronts if I stomp on the brakes but overall its a great improvement.
I'm happy with it now as it is, Never tried a Gen 3 so no idea what the braking is like.

If I ever bought another early Gen 2 the stock brakes would be immediately changed for this upgrade or latter Gen brakes.

 

[Viper98912]

Let's not forget that the reason the ABS Vipers are better than the non-ABS is not only because of the ABS function and better controlled valving of the piston unit, but the larger 43mm rear caliper. This is what causes a major difference in braking. Which is why Tom's 40mm caliper shows a great improvement.

When stock, I never locked up the Viper in street driving. In fact, I think I've only engaged ABS in my other cars a little over 5 times; 3 in the rain, 1 in the sand, 1 in the ice, and only once on dry pavement. Biggest benefit is when one wheel has less traction because of something on the road surface, not because you slammed on the brakes. After my 40mm upgrade, I did lockup the wheels (fronts only or both I do not know) after an oncoming car drifted into my lane. So lockup can happen regardless of what you have.

I eventually will be selling my Tom's 40mm calipers once I do my rear 40mm Brembo front-design-matching calipers from a G35 or Evo. I'll also be upgrading the stock front Brembo calipers onto the newer/larger 14" rotors. Just need to find where I'm going to get the wheel clearance from since I like factory wheels but dislike spacers.

 

[Dan Cragin]

I was able to test the new ABS vs the old non ABS system with Team Viper when they first came out. We tested 2001 vs 2000 cars in autocross, hands down the ABS car far exceeded the braking performance of the older cars. The brakes on both cars still faded with repeated use. End result was the development of a top notch brake system on the 03 and later models.

The earlier 1992-2002 cars can be significantly improved, there are numerous packages out there. So if you really want a non-ABS car, you can upgrade.

 

[natsfan]

Thanks everyone for the information. It will be very helpful in my decision.

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

When braking hard such as at track events a Gen 2 with ABS will save you a fortune on tires too. ie, flat spotting. I went thru many tires in the beginning with my old 99 GTS. When Dodge came out with ABS for the Gen 2 it was a huge improvement. The ABS is great but upgrading the pads etc. is really much better unless you are just doing street driving.