HEY! DON'T FORGET DOUG LEVIN!!!dON'T FORGET DOUG LEVIN!!
How pathetic. The 2003 is simply pathetic!
- Thread starter Qualitywires.com
- Start date
Hans Christian
Enthusiast
Take a chill pill Mark,
if you don't like what you aregetting buy something else - you are not on the board of directors so it is pretyy much out your hands - I think we should be more than happy that DCX continues the viper history. And if you ask me: in an improved version.
best regards
Hans Christian
if you don't like what you aregetting buy something else - you are not on the board of directors so it is pretyy much out your hands - I think we should be more than happy that DCX continues the viper history. And if you ask me: in an improved version.
best regards
Hans Christian
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
All I was hoping for was a little better handling characteristics, and it looks like I will get a competitor to my friends 16-year-old daughters M3.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, you lost me here. The car has more horsepower, more torque, and bigger displacement than the current Viper. It is lighter, has bigger brakes, and bigger tires. It is also <u>eight inches</u> wider than the current Viper. I would think that this would result in a much better handling car than the current version.
Mind you, I am not head-over-heals for the new one, at least from the pictures I have seen. I like the body style we have now (especially the GTS, but that's because I own one). Still, the 2003 appears to be able dominate anything produced in America, including the Gen II. At least on paper. Oh, and lest you forget the humble origins of the Viper, here is a quote directly from Chrysler's history page:
"In the summer of 1989, Chrysler began a $1 billion cost cutting and restructuring program to focus its resources on its core automotive business. The restructuring led Chrysler to begin a new approach to car and truck production called "platform teams" where representatives from various departments -- such as design, engineering, purchasing, manufacturing and marketing -- work together on a single vehicle line through its entire life cycle. Each team functions like a small company with total operating responsibility. The team approach cuts development time, because everyone works together from the start.
The Dodge Viper, a V-10 roadster, was the first vehicle developed by a platform team." (source: http://www.media.chrysler.com/wwwhome/hist.htm )
So, DaimlerChrysler is once again turning to the flagship model to set the pace for the restructured company. Hey, it worked before! Let's wait until the 2003 gets a little bit closer before we torpedo the concept. I, for one, am glad to see DC step up to the plate and hit what appears to be another home run. No matter how you slice it, 500/500/500 is a mark that is audacious for ANY car company, much less a giant like DC.
Chris
All I was hoping for was a little better handling characteristics, and it looks like I will get a competitor to my friends 16-year-old daughters M3.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, you lost me here. The car has more horsepower, more torque, and bigger displacement than the current Viper. It is lighter, has bigger brakes, and bigger tires. It is also <u>eight inches</u> wider than the current Viper. I would think that this would result in a much better handling car than the current version.
Mind you, I am not head-over-heals for the new one, at least from the pictures I have seen. I like the body style we have now (especially the GTS, but that's because I own one). Still, the 2003 appears to be able dominate anything produced in America, including the Gen II. At least on paper. Oh, and lest you forget the humble origins of the Viper, here is a quote directly from Chrysler's history page:
"In the summer of 1989, Chrysler began a $1 billion cost cutting and restructuring program to focus its resources on its core automotive business. The restructuring led Chrysler to begin a new approach to car and truck production called "platform teams" where representatives from various departments -- such as design, engineering, purchasing, manufacturing and marketing -- work together on a single vehicle line through its entire life cycle. Each team functions like a small company with total operating responsibility. The team approach cuts development time, because everyone works together from the start.
The Dodge Viper, a V-10 roadster, was the first vehicle developed by a platform team." (source: http://www.media.chrysler.com/wwwhome/hist.htm )
So, DaimlerChrysler is once again turning to the flagship model to set the pace for the restructured company. Hey, it worked before! Let's wait until the 2003 gets a little bit closer before we torpedo the concept. I, for one, am glad to see DC step up to the plate and hit what appears to be another home run. No matter how you slice it, 500/500/500 is a mark that is audacious for ANY car company, much less a giant like DC.
Chris
Frank 03SRT
Enthusiast
Yes the coupe is HOT. The GTSR can't be beat, I think.
Furthermore, how do we know that the 03 wasn't essentially designed BEFORE the German takeover. My guess is that it was COMPLETELY designed before, therefore, the Germans may not be at fault, if there is any fault at all. It takes time to design anything this complex.
Furthermore, how do we know that the 03 wasn't essentially designed BEFORE the German takeover. My guess is that it was COMPLETELY designed before, therefore, the Germans may not be at fault, if there is any fault at all. It takes time to design anything this complex.
Wow!
There is actually someone more upset about the 2003 than I am! I too have had my say on this board and am quite unhappy with the new direction of the appearance. I'll say it again. (apologies to those who suffered through my $0.02 before)
AMERICANS LIKE CURVES!!
JGK95
There is actually someone more upset about the 2003 than I am! I too have had my say on this board and am quite unhappy with the new direction of the appearance. I'll say it again. (apologies to those who suffered through my $0.02 before)
AMERICANS LIKE CURVES!!
JGK95
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Vip-RT10
Enthusiast
I like the GTSR better also, and looking to pre-pay for one. As a current owner of both BMW and Mercedes, the craftsmanship is excellent, something that most American cars lack. The introduction of the "German" blood to me means that the "faults" that the current Vipers have (like leaking roofs and doors, noises and quality of interior components) will be greatly inproved and can only be better for Chrysler. That is also why I think that the price increased a bit on the 2003. Defenately more quality will be obtained from the Germans. They have excellent teams of brainstorming people that will help in the production of a better Viper, and help upkeep the American muscle in it. Therefore creating a better toned "muscle". Bringing in Formula One experience is a GREAT factor for the Viper too.
In Ferrari, the F1 experience enabled it to bring F1 technology in the F355-F1, F40, F50, 360, 550 and in to the future projects. The only thing that i see will hurt Chrysler, is that Benz will fire many more people in the plants. I feel horribly for those great souls that made the American dream possible.
In Ferrari, the F1 experience enabled it to bring F1 technology in the F355-F1, F40, F50, 360, 550 and in to the future projects. The only thing that i see will hurt Chrysler, is that Benz will fire many more people in the plants. I feel horribly for those great souls that made the American dream possible.
Kid97GTS
Enthusiast
Even if your dire predictions came true, I'm sure that, after time, another car would emerge to satisfy the current Viper niche. Just look back at other famous cars to see what became of their line due to accountants taking control away from the car guys - The Chevelle went from LS6 454 with a Muncie 4 speed to a four door P.O.S.; Corvettes became smog controlled dogs until the mid 80's, same for the F-Bodies; Hemis were retired to the track; big blocks by and large were restricted to trucks; etc. However, there have always been alternatives offering big performance if you are willing to put up with the lack of a cupholder and other niceties - i.e., Pantera, Cobra (even big block kits), ZR1, etc. Point being, that even if the Viper becomes something you aren't willing to purchase, there should be something to replace it coming around the corner. And if not, I still think a properly modded Gen II can still compete with any car, even a 2003 500 hp model, that is streetable in any way.
rschiltz
Enthusiast
I agree, thats why we have great aftermarket tuners like Lingenfelter, TNT, and Hennessey.
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
Mark, you obviously do not know the history of Chrysler very well. The Viper brought more value to Chrysler than sales numbers. In fact Bob Lutz once said that the Viper got Chrysler more exposure than Chrysler could have purchased with 4 times their wealth!
The Chapter 3 Viper will get a huge amount of exposer for DCX. The numbers are staggering and the former issues have been addressed. Production will never see anything close to what you are insinuating. Most likely, you will not see more than 2,000-2,500 units produced annually.
As for the look, again many of you have no clue as to how that was derived. This Viper (unlike the first 2) has been engineered from the bottom up, rather than from the top down (as was the case on the original). Because of this simple fact, the Viper will now set new standards that would have never been attainable with the original style(mainly because of the handy-cap that the current body provides).
Don't kid yourself either into thinking this is a "German" machine. The boys that put this monster together are as red blooded American as the original.
And by the way, Shelby "consulted" on the drive train, and what was needed to be successful. It was Tome Gale who made the Viper look as good as it did.
On a personal note. I am guarantying that you have not even seen the new version in person. I have yet to meet or hear from anyone who has seen it in person talk this trash. You might want to look into something before you make such a bold statement.
The Chapter 3 Viper will get a huge amount of exposer for DCX. The numbers are staggering and the former issues have been addressed. Production will never see anything close to what you are insinuating. Most likely, you will not see more than 2,000-2,500 units produced annually.
As for the look, again many of you have no clue as to how that was derived. This Viper (unlike the first 2) has been engineered from the bottom up, rather than from the top down (as was the case on the original). Because of this simple fact, the Viper will now set new standards that would have never been attainable with the original style(mainly because of the handy-cap that the current body provides).
Don't kid yourself either into thinking this is a "German" machine. The boys that put this monster together are as red blooded American as the original.
And by the way, Shelby "consulted" on the drive train, and what was needed to be successful. It was Tome Gale who made the Viper look as good as it did.
On a personal note. I am guarantying that you have not even seen the new version in person. I have yet to meet or hear from anyone who has seen it in person talk this trash. You might want to look into something before you make such a bold statement.
Hans Christian
Enthusiast
Thanks Steve,
Couldn't agree more !!!
And let me state again: "we should be more than happy that DCX continue this story with an even more impresive chapter"
The wait is unbearable.
Couldn't agree more !!!
And let me state again: "we should be more than happy that DCX continue this story with an even more impresive chapter"
The wait is unbearable.
99t1
Enthusiast
The rear looks like a Mitsubishi....booo hooo!
Frank 03SRT
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, you guys with the soon to be old style Vipers, DC may be doing you a favor. Keep your old car, and find out. Heck, anyway you look at it, you can't lose. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Except at the stop light.
Except at the stop light.
BigsViper
Enthusiast
If you look at pics of the GTS/R concept and the Chapter III side-by-side you will see many similarities. Besides the rear and wing it almost looks like they "cut off the top" to make the 'vert. Maybe someone better at finding and posting pics than me could give us another look at the two - together?
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BigsViper
Enthusiast
Although I can't snag this picture to post, here's a link to some of the GTS/R concept:
http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/concept/vipgtsr.htm
And some of the Chapter III:
http://us.media.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm
Click corporate photos then 2003 cars then Viper
http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/concept/vipgtsr.htm
And some of the Chapter III:
http://us.media.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm
Click corporate photos then 2003 cars then Viper
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Sam Fischer
Enthusiast
saw the 03 at Chi. Auto show and loved it. I'm waiting for John at Roanoke to call me for delivery date ha ha. Thank god we are all indiviuals with different tastes. I love the rear end and can even though I have a 97 RT10 with windows (that doesn't leak anywhere) I would love to have a permanent top and 5/5/5!
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
Like I said, you have not even SEEN it yet! I am waiting for someone who has say something negative. It won't happen. This beast is impressive as hell when you get up close and personal. Put it next to one of our current models and you will all of of sudden not feel like King of the Hill any longer.
Stay tuned for a complete story in the next edition of VCA Notes. We will compare the drawing, the GTS-R, and the production RT10. When you see the reasoning for why things were done, the picture will become EXTRAORDINARY looking.
BTW, the reason the Chapter 3 looks like it does is because the majority of the Viper Nation requested that the next Viper achieve a specific performance standard. Team Viper is out to exceed what was asked for.
Stay tuned for a complete story in the next edition of VCA Notes. We will compare the drawing, the GTS-R, and the production RT10. When you see the reasoning for why things were done, the picture will become EXTRAORDINARY looking.
BTW, the reason the Chapter 3 looks like it does is because the majority of the Viper Nation requested that the next Viper achieve a specific performance standard. Team Viper is out to exceed what was asked for.
Hans Christian
Enthusiast
YEAH STEVE,
Can't wait to get mine.. Even though the delivery scheme is not revealed yet, I am still number 14 on the Woodhouse list, so my wait shouldn't be too looong.
Chapter 3 Viper rules
Can't wait to get mine.. Even though the delivery scheme is not revealed yet, I am still number 14 on the Woodhouse list, so my wait shouldn't be too looong.
Chapter 3 Viper rules
BWoodbury
Enthusiast
Sorry to burst your bubble Steve, but I've seen it and I do not like it! I spent quite a bit of time with it at the Chicago auto show. The styling just plain leaves me flat. It is all sharp corners and angles. I know this is direction most newer cars are going in, but I simply do not like it.
The 2003 Viper will not stand out in a crowd. Style wise it is much closer to a Mustang or Camero than it is to my GTS. By the time it hits the street other cars will be even closer to it. It is clearly an attempt by DC to make the car apeal to more people, and I suspect that it will do that. It is much more mainstream than the original.
Ya, ya, I know the numbers are great. So what? By the time it comes out my '96 will be quicker than it is. Will than matter? Not much. How much time do you spend racing your car vs the amout of time you spend looking at it and just plain driving it?
I am getting real tired of hearing about how that car had to be fugly so it could have better performance. That is simply a load of.... Sure it needed to be wider and lower, great idea. But it did not need to have all those angles and corners.
Sorry, but looks count. The 2003 is half a great car, but that is not enough to get my money or even my respect. And I've seen it in person.
The 2003 Viper will not stand out in a crowd. Style wise it is much closer to a Mustang or Camero than it is to my GTS. By the time it hits the street other cars will be even closer to it. It is clearly an attempt by DC to make the car apeal to more people, and I suspect that it will do that. It is much more mainstream than the original.
Ya, ya, I know the numbers are great. So what? By the time it comes out my '96 will be quicker than it is. Will than matter? Not much. How much time do you spend racing your car vs the amout of time you spend looking at it and just plain driving it?
I am getting real tired of hearing about how that car had to be fugly so it could have better performance. That is simply a load of.... Sure it needed to be wider and lower, great idea. But it did not need to have all those angles and corners.
Sorry, but looks count. The 2003 is half a great car, but that is not enough to get my money or even my respect. And I've seen it in person.
Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
It is about time someone who has seen it in person spoke out about it!
Great points, and it is nice to see some people love the original so much.
But since I drive mine at a track 75% to street 25% maybe that is why I am blinded with love.
Thanks for keeping the list shorter!
Great points, and it is nice to see some people love the original so much.
But since I drive mine at a track 75% to street 25% maybe that is why I am blinded with love.
Thanks for keeping the list shorter!
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
Re: Gen 3 -
The GTS-R roofline looks squashed and completely out of proportion to the rest of the car (like 0.85x to be specific). Not sure about the tailight/rear fascia styling either.
I vehemently dislike the sharp, straight-cut, 'reverse-slash' air extractor on both the RT and GTS-R. If there is an overriding gripe I have about the whole idea of the Gen 3 - that HAS to be it.
Front fascia: very cool! Headlights: nice! Interior - really good, but why move the gauge pods out of the sight line?
Hood scoop: not-so-great. How about twin NACA ducts (one per stripe) with a drop-floor "Air Grabber" mechanism? Take your pick - around-town smoothies, or full-boogie Hoover Holes at the *tug* of a very tactile, full-manual cable. I don't care for the creases behind the scoop, but the louvers are OK.
Published specs - Aside from the following minor quibbles, how can anyone NOT be completely bowled over by the Gen 3?
Answer me this: why do we need 18" front wheels and 19" rears? Anyone?.....Anyone?.....Bueller?
Where's the battery? What are the corner weights - with driver, less passenger?
8" wider!? Time for a new trailer, or to drive to track weekends in the racecar again. That really demoralizes the brand-X, Y, and Z clubbers
The GTS-R roofline looks squashed and completely out of proportion to the rest of the car (like 0.85x to be specific). Not sure about the tailight/rear fascia styling either.
I vehemently dislike the sharp, straight-cut, 'reverse-slash' air extractor on both the RT and GTS-R. If there is an overriding gripe I have about the whole idea of the Gen 3 - that HAS to be it.
Front fascia: very cool! Headlights: nice! Interior - really good, but why move the gauge pods out of the sight line?
Hood scoop: not-so-great. How about twin NACA ducts (one per stripe) with a drop-floor "Air Grabber" mechanism? Take your pick - around-town smoothies, or full-boogie Hoover Holes at the *tug* of a very tactile, full-manual cable. I don't care for the creases behind the scoop, but the louvers are OK.
Published specs - Aside from the following minor quibbles, how can anyone NOT be completely bowled over by the Gen 3?
Answer me this: why do we need 18" front wheels and 19" rears? Anyone?.....Anyone?.....Bueller?
Where's the battery? What are the corner weights - with driver, less passenger?
8" wider!? Time for a new trailer, or to drive to track weekends in the racecar again. That really demoralizes the brand-X, Y, and Z clubbers
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Steve Ferguson
Enthusiast
Rick, pick up the book GUTS, by Bob Lutz. That should clarify any thought as to who had what to do with Viper.
Lutz thought of the concept while driving his AC. Gale had his team design the body, and Castaing provided the engineering feasibility study. Ol' Shel provided the "back to basis" philosophy.......... The rest is HISSSTORY.
Was Shel an inspiration on the Viper project? Hell yes. But some people are misled if they think he had a major roll in it. He was there to support the program, and that he did very well.
Lutz thought of the concept while driving his AC. Gale had his team design the body, and Castaing provided the engineering feasibility study. Ol' Shel provided the "back to basis" philosophy.......... The rest is HISSSTORY.
Was Shel an inspiration on the Viper project? Hell yes. But some people are misled if they think he had a major roll in it. He was there to support the program, and that he did very well.
Venom Lover
Enthusiast
As I posted in response to another thread...
...human nature being what it is, there will be people who prefer the styling of the Chapter III Viper (such as my Z06 buddy Bob who finds the current Viper styling to be too over-the-top), and there will be those who prefer the original styling. In matters of style, it's all up to personal preference, and there are no absolutes. There will never be a unanimous vote in favor of GenI/II or in favor of Chapter III. I have my '03 on order, but I will also be keeping my '97.
Which body style is more popular in the long run is hard to predict.
...human nature being what it is, there will be people who prefer the styling of the Chapter III Viper (such as my Z06 buddy Bob who finds the current Viper styling to be too over-the-top), and there will be those who prefer the original styling. In matters of style, it's all up to personal preference, and there are no absolutes. There will never be a unanimous vote in favor of GenI/II or in favor of Chapter III. I have my '03 on order, but I will also be keeping my '97.
Which body style is more popular in the long run is hard to predict.
Hans Christian
Enthusiast
Mark,
One less for the long waiting list - Thanks. I Look forward for you to show the upcoming Chapter III owners some respect when they kick your A** on the track. Repeatedly I am sure.
One less for the long waiting list - Thanks. I Look forward for you to show the upcoming Chapter III owners some respect when they kick your A** on the track. Repeatedly I am sure.
Hans Christian
Enthusiast
Mark,
Don't worry I don't take it personal - we are just having a good open hearted debate which I think is great by the way.
Look forward to test its actual stock performance versus modified - I can just imagine chapter III modified - then it will kick some real A**.
NB: Keep an open mind about this car - I haven't seen up close an personal but I am sure it is 1000000% better than the pics and I for one cant wait to get mine.
Don't worry I don't take it personal - we are just having a good open hearted debate which I think is great by the way.
Look forward to test its actual stock performance versus modified - I can just imagine chapter III modified - then it will kick some real A**.
NB: Keep an open mind about this car - I haven't seen up close an personal but I am sure it is 1000000% better than the pics and I for one cant wait to get mine.
SpeedRacer
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 3secondclub:
I am not talking "personal preference" to buy the car, I am talking the overall view and perception from the masses.
I have friends from all over who drive Toyota's to Lambo's and everything in between. In 1991 to date, did you ever, or hear someone ever saying; "You know the Viper just doesn't look cool or mean or some other complementary word?" ....Vette owners don't count, as we took away their monopoly on the "American Sports Car," and they are still sore!
I remember 1991 very well. I don't care who you were, or what you drove, when you saw this new beautiful piece of a Shelby dream about to turn into a reality, you stopped dead in your tracks and gawked! I had friends from Germany wanting to buy one and have me ship it to them so they could drive it on the autobahn (and it wasn't even on our roads). It DEMANDED respect. It got it!
The new Vipers? All I say is; "Oh well, there goes our monopoly on the baddest looking car." What do I hear; "The back looks like a frikin Honda Spider" (as a friend of mine thought it was). You didn't hear anything like that in 91. I was a ******** Porsche owner driver (from the 928s4 to the 911 twin) and when I heard a Dodge (of all cars) was coming out with a "new car" I didn't even care to see it. When I saw the Viper my jaw was stuck in the down position for a week! I didn't care if it was made by Hugo! It was simply one bad-*** car I NEEDED.
The new Viper does not and will not "demand" respect. It might "get" some respect, but it won't demand it. And the worst news is, I am far from the only guy who thinks this......A Honda Spider.....give me a break!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Have to agree with Mark on this one. Looks are just as important as power. Wonder which one made the 10-year-old kid hang around my driveway today? Bottom line is that the Gen I/II R/T10 will become the classic, regardless of the Gen III's performance. However, I think there is more of a question on the GTS if the GTS-R Concept ends up as a production model. No question that the current model is the jaw-dropper and the Gen III is not.
I am not talking "personal preference" to buy the car, I am talking the overall view and perception from the masses.
I have friends from all over who drive Toyota's to Lambo's and everything in between. In 1991 to date, did you ever, or hear someone ever saying; "You know the Viper just doesn't look cool or mean or some other complementary word?" ....Vette owners don't count, as we took away their monopoly on the "American Sports Car," and they are still sore!
I remember 1991 very well. I don't care who you were, or what you drove, when you saw this new beautiful piece of a Shelby dream about to turn into a reality, you stopped dead in your tracks and gawked! I had friends from Germany wanting to buy one and have me ship it to them so they could drive it on the autobahn (and it wasn't even on our roads). It DEMANDED respect. It got it!
The new Vipers? All I say is; "Oh well, there goes our monopoly on the baddest looking car." What do I hear; "The back looks like a frikin Honda Spider" (as a friend of mine thought it was). You didn't hear anything like that in 91. I was a ******** Porsche owner driver (from the 928s4 to the 911 twin) and when I heard a Dodge (of all cars) was coming out with a "new car" I didn't even care to see it. When I saw the Viper my jaw was stuck in the down position for a week! I didn't care if it was made by Hugo! It was simply one bad-*** car I NEEDED.
The new Viper does not and will not "demand" respect. It might "get" some respect, but it won't demand it. And the worst news is, I am far from the only guy who thinks this......A Honda Spider.....give me a break!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Have to agree with Mark on this one. Looks are just as important as power. Wonder which one made the 10-year-old kid hang around my driveway today? Bottom line is that the Gen I/II R/T10 will become the classic, regardless of the Gen III's performance. However, I think there is more of a question on the GTS if the GTS-R Concept ends up as a production model. No question that the current model is the jaw-dropper and the Gen III is not.
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