HUGE hp number with 5 into 1 headers!

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

OK,

Now that we have your attention and we ave been hashing out the Belanger triY headers and Mopar PCM. I thought I would ask how many of you would be willing to buy a drag race only header that will produce the most top end hp possible on the gen4 cars?

Lou Belanger and I are going to start a project to see what the max hp is you can get with the 5 into 1 design and Lou's collector knowledge. If this get us to where we want to be do you think it will out sell his current design that sacrifices top end numbers for usable torque through the midrange?

If we design it to drop in the same place as the current design does from head to collector so you could swap it out would you? Just looking for a little feed back on what you would like to see offered if possible.

Thanks,

 

[ViperTony]

Doesn't H******** have a 5-1 design that he's been bragging out and, consequently, trashing Lou's design on other sites? Curious to see how this new design compares. BTW, its great see you putting so much effort into '08 tuning. Keep it coming!

 

[Flash1034]

I'd rather have more power right off idle on my 08. FYI

Thanks though,

Flash

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

I'd rather have more power right off idle on my 08. FYI

Thanks though,

Flash

I would say you need a gear change to 3.55 or 3.73 if that is what you want to feel. Cheaper than motor work too!

Of course I think EVERY Viper needs a deeper gear... but that's just me

 

[mike & juli]

How would the 5-in-1 Belanger headers compare to B&B STEPPED Headers, Mark? Just curious...NOT promoting any specific header manufacturer. THANX~~juli

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

How would the 5-in-1 Belanger headers compare to B&B STEPPED Headers, Mark? Just curious...NOT promoting any specific header manufacturer. THANX~~juli

Juli,

Everyone knows that I have complete faith in Lou Belangers ability to produce the best researched and built headers for any application. This is why we choose to sell his products EXCLUSIVELY. I have bought others by request, but have never been happier than we are with Belanger. I would expect nothing less than the best performing 5 into 1 design possible from him or else he will NOT build it for sale that is just how Lou thinks.

With that said there are other headers out there that look very nice and give the allure of performance based on material, finish, or a gimmick that sets their product apart. I have not seen a stepped header that really provides any gains from this approach. The theory that the gasses are cooling and expanding that quickly and need the larger tube does not seem possible to me. From what I have been told the design actually causes turbulence and back pressure it does not need to be efficient.

But in the end this is why we have a million different things sold to us that do the same thing. It is all about choices to us as consumers. I just try to run our business based on what "I know works" so I can give a first hand account of the things I believe in rather than just selling you anything you ask for. This may seem counter productive but at least has kept me honest about what we sell and the backing that goes with those products. We have a great relationship with all our products companies and that is a huge benefit to us and our customers.

WOW sorry if I got off track.

 

[mike & juli]

Mark~~It's VERY good to see you believe in the products you sell. I didn't mean to 'promote' any certain product. I'm like you, shop around, ask TONS of questions, then make informed decisions.
It's GREAT that you and Lou Belanger are working together, I'm sure the QUALITY products you will produce and ultimately sell will be top-notch. THANK you as always for your expertise~! ~juli

 

[Camfab]

OK,

Now that we have your attention and we ave been hashing out the Belanger triY headers and Mopar PCM. I thought I would ask how many of you would be willing to buy a drag race only header that will produce the most top end hp possible on the gen4 cars?

Lou Belanger and I are going to start a project to see what the max hp is you can get with the 5 into 1 design and Lou's collector knowledge. If this get us to where we want to be do you think it will out sell his current design that sacrifices top end numbers for usable torque through the midrange?

If we design it to drop in the same place as the current design does from head to collector so you could swap it out would you? Just looking for a little feed back on what you would like to see offered if possible.

Thanks,

A) Most of your customers rely on your knowledge and sales skills to steer them in the right direction.

B) I would bet honest money that most of your customers have no clue what the difference is between a 5 into 1 collector and a tri-y design.

C) Clearly why would Lou Ballenger or you ask if it would sell better than the previous design?

D) The simple fact is that no singular header design is appropriate for all engines. If Lou made ten different options, it still would not cover the potential needs of a given engine combo.

E) I don't own a Gen IV, but was frustrated with the lack of header options for my GenII when I was building my engine.

In closing, I specifically did not buy Ballenger Headers, because I did not want a tri-y design. I settled on a used set of SVS headers, because they offered what I wanted in a set of headers. Stepped primary tubes, equal length, Burns merge collectors (which by the way are the finest collector I have ever seen). This is not an SVS endorsement, it's just what I desire in a header. So, YES he should build them and thanks for your desire to build a better product line.

 

[ACRBruce]

Giving up a little down low for higher RPM gains is not a bad trade-off as most of us have traction issues down low anyway. Furthermore, a little less power and torque on a 700HP car (assuming headers and Mopar ECU w/ that extra 500 revs) isn't a concern to me. So I'd say build it and give us the option to hook the setup into stock '08 mufflers as not all of us want to wake the neighbors (and cops) coming and going. I for one am willing to give up 20HP by keeping the stock mufflers.

 

[Grant]

I thought I would ask how many of you would be willing to buy a drag race only header that will produce the most top end hp possible on the gen4 cars?

Mark,

I'm definitely going to be purchasing headers for my ACR, though up until now I was really considering Hennessey's, for three reasons: 1) Their 5->1 Burns Stainless merge collector; 2) Their 1-7/8" runners; 3) I don't care about power under 4000 RPM.

So I suppose I should ask, how do you define "top end" and "midrange"? What RPM ranges are we talking about here, and what sort of power difference?

 

[Grant]

So I'd say build it and give us the option to hook the setup into stock '08 mufflers as not all of us want to wake the neighbors (and cops) coming and going. I for one am willing to give up 20HP by keeping the stock mufflers.

How are the stock mufflers restrictive? Aren't they straight-through units of the same diameter as the aftermarket pieces? Or am I way off?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

I have tried to answer the questions below and thank you very much for your responses!

A) Most of your customers rely on your knowledge and sales skills to steer them in the right direction.

B) I would bet honest money that most of your customers have no clue what the difference is between a 5 into 1 collector and a tri-y design.

That is why I have brought it up. The gains in the triY are not big top end numbers (4500-up) but as you stated midrange (2500-4800) is much improved with this design)

C) Clearly why would Lou Belanger or you ask if it would sell better than the previous design?

Not so much a better design but an option for those looking for the top end numbers. He wants to offer the biggest top end gains of any other designed 5-1.

D) The simple fact is that no singular header design is appropriate for all engines. If Lou made ten different options, it still would not cover the potential needs of a given engine combo.

Agreed

E) I don't own a Gen IV, but was frustrated with the lack of header options for my GenII when I was building my engine.

In closing, I specifically did not buy Belanger Headers, because I did not want a tri-y design. I settled on a used set of SVS headers, because they offered what I wanted in a set of headers. Stepped primary tubes, equal length, Burns merge collectors (which by the way are the finest collector I have ever seen). This is not an SVS endorsement, it's just what I desire in a header. So, YES he should build them and thanks for your desire to build a better product line.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Grant,

Thanks for the questions this is good stuff. I feel the top end is from 4500-red line. Not to knock the Burns design at all it is GREAT as you say, but I think Lou has something in his design also and can be just as effective or more so at a much better price point than the Burns unit. The 1-7/8" runners will be an option for sure with the new designs. All of the new headers from us will be designed to work with the new PCM to insure the best power and to work without check engine lights by the way.

The power loss through the midrange is yet to be seen for the most top end but there will be considerably less power there than the TriY.

Mark,

I'm definitely going to be purchasing headers for my ACR, though up until now I was really considering Hennessey's, for three reasons: 1) Their 5->1 Burns Stainless merge collector; 2) Their 1-7/8" runners; 3) I don't care about power under 4000 RPM.

So I suppose I should ask, how do you define "top end" and "midrange"? What RPM ranges are we talking about here, and what sort of power difference?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Stock mufflers are not really restrictive but the Corsa design has been proven to help the scavenging effect and the others do not so that is where the small gains from the Corsa come from. Most of this choice though will be for the sound that each owner wants for their Viper.

How are the stock mufflers restrictive? Aren't they straight-through units of the same diameter as the aftermarket pieces? Or am I way off?

 

[Malu59RT]

Grant,

Thanks for the questions this is good stuff. I feel the top end is from 4500-red line. Not to knock the Burns design at all it is GREAT as you say, but I think Lou has something in his design also and can be just as effective or more so at a much better price point than the Burns unit. The 1-7/8" runners will be an option for sure with the new designs. All of the new headers from us will be designed to work with the new PCM to insure the best power and to work without check engine lights by the way.

The power loss through the midrange is yet to be seen for the most top end but there will be considerably less power there than the TriY.

Mark,

When you say no CEL, is that achieved with high flow cats, or without cats period? Just wanted clarification on that.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Mark,

When you say no CEL, is that achieved with high flow cats, or without cats period? Just wanted clarification on that.

The Mopar PCM is configured to ignore the rear O2 sensors completely

 

[Flash1034]

I would say you need a gear change to 3.55 or 3.73 if that is what you want to feel. Cheaper than motor work too!

Of course I think EVERY Viper needs a deeper gear... but that's just me

Mark. You guys have experimented and driven all the ratios. On a stock 08, do you recommend the 3.55s?

Thanks,
\

Flash

 

[cheryl mccally]

Mark, since I don't drag but track instead, will the 5 into 1 with a different gear ratio give me more overall power thruout the rpm range or am I better off with what I already have? My only real complaint is throttle response/launch speed issues out of the corners.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Mark. You guys have experimented and driven all the ratios. On a stock 08, do you recommend the 3.55s?

Thanks,
\

Flash

It is totally my opinion that the 3.55 is the best choice for a well driven car. The experience you will have in the normal driving range is night and day better. The top end although on paper may be decreased will get you there faster and with more aggression which is what a Viper is right?

That being said I would expect anyone that is a drag racer only will still want the 3.33 but since 4th gear in this tranny is taller maybe the 3.55 will be the "new" choice?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Mark, since I don't drag but track instead, will the 5 into 1 with a different gear ratio give me more overall power thruout the rpm range or am I better off with what I already have? My only real complaint is throttle response/launch speed issues out of the corners.

Cheryl,

I would rather you stay with the triY because you are not always at the upper reaches at the apex where you need to power out of the turn. I would think this 5-1 would be mostly drag racing people. If you want more grunt I would swap out the rear gear and row the shifter more!

 

[SilveRT8]

Giving up a little down low for higher RPM gains is not a bad trade-off as most of us have traction issues down low anyway. Furthermore, a little less power and torque on a 700HP car (assuming headers and Mopar ECU w/ that extra 500 revs) isn't a concern to me. So I'd say build it and give us the option to hook the setup into stock '08 mufflers as not all of us want to wake the neighbors (and cops) coming and going. I for one am willing to give up 20HP by keeping the stock mufflers.

My toughts exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself! No really!
Claude

 

[j-rho]

I think it would be fun to do the 5-1 header, with whatever oiling/valvetrain mods needed to rev to 6500-7k rpm reliably. Then, instead of changing the rear gear, leave it and first gear alone, but tighten up the transmission internal gear ratio gaps from 2nd-6th. A stock Viper is geared to go 300+ in sixth. If that were tightened up so redline in 6th were the highest speed you'd see on the highest track (say 180), you could keep the car in the 4500+ rpm range the whole time on track, except the tightest first gear corners, where you'd have adequate torque anyway. That thing would SCREAM!

 

[cheryl mccally]

Cheryl,

I would rather you stay with the triY because you are not always at the upper reaches at the apex where you need to power out of the turn. I would think this 5-1 would be mostly drag racing people. If you want more grunt I would swap out the rear gear and row the shifter more!

Thanks Mark, I have tried rowing the shifter more but usually it's slower, it just depends on the corner.

 

[Boxer12]

+1 on the new design. The more HP the better...I don't care where it is, I will find it, and be THERE when I want it (coming out of corners, passing, whatever)!


Cheryl, just learn how to drive.












jk, cheryl

 

[Grant]

Gen 4 Vipers with a 6500 RPM rev limit (i.e., with the Mopar ECU) should fall back to the following RPMs after shifts:
1->2: 4447
2->3: 4643
3->4: 5000
4->5: 4810

So except on really tight tracks (where you probably can't use full power anyway), I don't think loosing some power below 4000 RPM is necessarily such a bad thing. I don't think I often need more power when the revs are lower, as I'm usually not tracking out at that point.

This should really help the 4->5 shift a lot, which cars with lower rear-end gears probably encounter on many tracks. My stock ACR dies on the 4->5 shift, though it keeps pulling as the torque builds (I've actually had it at a GPS-indicated 179.7 MPH in 5th, still pulling, before letting off; felt like it might do 185 or so).

 

[rcl4668]

The Mopar PCM is configured to ignore the rear O2 sensors completely

Mark --

Here in Oregon, our local DEQ emissions testing involve splugging into the OBD II port. I took my my Gen IV in for some voluntary emissions tests to see if the car passed with the Belangers installed. The car passed, with the exception that the "Catalyst" and ""02 sensor" emissions tests both read as "Unready." I was told this would take some additional drive cycles to clear or activate the sensors. Because the Mopar ECU essentially ignores the rear O2 sensors will this result in a permanent "unready" status and prevent me from passing DEQ/emissions?

Thanks.

/Rich

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Mark --

Here in Oregon, our local DEQ emissions testing involve splugging into the OBD II port. I took my my Gen IV in for some voluntary emissions tests to see if the car passed with the Belangers installed. The car passed, with the exception that the "Catalyst" and ""02 sensor" emissions tests both read as "Unready." I was told this would take some additional drive cycles to clear or activate the sensors. Because the Mopar ECU essentially ignores the rear O2 sensors will this result in a permanent "unready" status and prevent me from passing DEQ/emissions?

Thanks.

/Rich

Rich,

This is a question I will need to ask real engineers... I'm just a lowly Performance Manager . I will try to get back to you on this if I can without getting in trouble.

 

[rcl4668]

Rich,

This is a question I will need to ask real engineers... I'm just a lowly Performance Manager . I will try to get back to you on this if I can without getting in trouble.

Mark --

As always, thanks for going to bat for us with the folks at SRT.

/Rich