Ideas on possible fuel system upgrade

[BOTTLEFED]

I've been trying to come up with a fuel system upgrade for boost applications that is cheap and easy to do for most people and that will work for the majority of HP levels out there.

This is my idea -
Add a Walbro 255 to the stock fuel tank canister, next to the stock fuel pump. Tee it in before the stock regulator and add a checkvalve to keep the fuel from the stock pump from back-feeding into the Walbro when not in use. Everything else in the fuel system remains stock - feed line, regulator, filter, etc.
The Walbro will be controlled by a simple progressive controller and activated by boost. I'm thinking of using a DevilsOwn w/m controller, but a VEC PWM output could do it as well.
In theory, the Walbro will act like an inline pump in a normal return-style system, boosting flow at critical higher boost periods.

Here is a crude paint drawing I did to show what I'm thinking of:

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I'm posting this around to get some opinions on this and solve any issue it could have. I think this could support 800-900rwhp in a boosted (Roe or Paxton s/c, or even a low-boost TT).
The only limit on this will be the use of the small 3/8" stock feed line.
I would also keep my BAP on the stock pump to add even more possible flow.

Let me know what you think

 

[CWhiteRun]

I would be afraid of corrosion (sediment...not rust) over time eventually making the check valve stick....and BAP's scare me too much. Voltage drop is all it takes one time under throttle to make your wallet hurt. A.R.T. will put two 255lph pumps in your stock carrier, Y both feeds together into a single -8 output for around $500. That's about the most reliable and least expensive route that I have seen.

 

[plumcrazy]

fuel system is not a place i personally want to go cheap but thats my opinion.

PM 1TONY1, IIRC he came up with a decent way to do a fuel system and save some money

 

[BOTTLEFED]

There is a difference between cheap and bad. Just because it doesn't cost $thousands$ and come from Hennessey (or any other big name Viper shop), doesn't mean it is wrong or not going to work.

Phil, do you have the most expensive fuel system made? I guarantee you do not. Does that mean its cheap? Maybe to some that have spent much more than you on their own setup. Does that mean yours is bad? I doubt it.

Too many of you are followers and just buy what is fed to you by the Hennesseys of the Viper world. Some of you believe the more a part cost, the better it is for your particular setup.

I'm looking for an alternative fuel system that does the job and is inexpensive and not too complicated. It doesn't have to support 1K+ HP. Not everyone needs that kind of fuel system. Many of the modified Viper owners only need a small boost in their fuel system. They are not looking for, nor do they need, a full out return-style setup with a Weldon pump, full stainless steal braided lines and fittings, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, etc.

I'm looking for that setup that DIY Viper owners would be comfortable installing and setting up themselves. A system that will support the HP levels that is most common in this community. As I said, not everyone needs a high dollar fuel system, so why not come up with a system that fills the need and not just what can make the most $$?

This is just what I have come up with after a lot of research and thought. I want some opinions on the logistics and technical workings of my idea, not whether or not there is a more expensive setup that is already available.

 

[Russ M]

For most people the most expensive and hardest part to do would be the work inside the fuel tank. The parts themselves are very cheap the expensive part is labor. So why would you spend all that money to upgrade your system and go cheap on the actual parts?

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I would be afraid of corrosion (sediment...not rust) over time eventually making the check valve stick....and BAP's scare me too much. Voltage drop is all it takes one time under throttle to make your wallet hurt. A.R.T. will put two 255lph pumps in your stock carrier, Y both feeds together into a single -8 output for around $500. That's about the most reliable and least expensive route that I have seen.

Really??
Did you think about what you just described?
A Walbro is less than $100 and some fittings and submersible fuel line is $100 at most. So you are paying them $200 to hang the pumps in your cage? And that doesn't even pay for the labor to R&R it

 

[BOTTLEFED]

For most people the most expensive and hardest part to do would be the work inside the fuel tank. The parts themselves are very cheap the expensive part is labor. So why would you spend all that money to upgrade your system and go cheap on the actual parts?

Which parts are cheap Russ?

 

[1TONY1]

I think the problem is the restriction.....you could put ten pumps in there but if you are still going through the 1/8" ID fitting then it's a waste of time IMO. This fitting is what the hose goes on in the canister, opposite from the pump.

Cheapo ink pen insert:

Two pennies

 

[Dan Cragin]

I have worked with systems like this and had some issues. Yes, some of the later (I think 1999 and above) fuel feed pump lines are restrictive. The biggest issue is the extra delivery of the additional pump may run the fuel pump "bucket" dry under heavy load, the siphon pump just cannot return the fuel fast enough. This will happen when the tank is 1/2 full or less. The extra pump in the module reduces the capacity of the "bucket" as well.

The best way to test a system like this is to send it to a company like RC engineering for testing and flow analysis.

We can build complete fuel systems to your specifications if needed. For most NA engines up to 600rwhp a pump booster will help. For race use a dedicated fuel system is the way to go, just expensive.

Hope this helps.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Tony,
I'm not sure of the part in the pic. Is that piece that is under the regulator?
I have a 97 GTS and the canister seems to look different than any of the pics I've seen of it

Dan,
Thank you for your reply. It is very helpful.
That's a very good point about the stock pump possibly not being able to keep up with refilling the sump in the canister when the Walbro is working hard, and also the reduced capacity of the canister with the extra pump in there. I wonder if it would just be better to have the Walbro sucking outside of the canister and just pulling straight from the fuel tank itself?

Also great idea on sending it to RC for flow testing.
I could set up a home testing for some less exact comparisons by just measuring the flow for 1min. of the stock pump in the canister, and the new setup in the canister, and converting each to GPH to get an idea of increased flow.

 

[Red Snake]

How would your system be any better than just replacing your stock pump with the Walbro unit?

The Walbro in the factory canister combined with the external BAP supports ~700 rwhp applications and doesn't reduce the capacity of the canister. It costs $100 and doesn't require plumbing return lines, a controller, etc.

The only advantage I can see is that you have a secondary pump operating in case the primary fails. Other than that, what other advantages are you trying to achieve?

 

[1TONY1]

I "think" that is the bottom of the metal regulator from my 96. I'm pretty sure I removed it so it would not restrict flow since I used the factory line as a return line. I know that some years don't have the metal regulator......I would like to see some pictures of what they do have and also the size of the fitting that the pump hose is attached to.

As for pumping the canister dry: Both of my changes have pulled from the outside (one single Walbro, one dual walbro) The current dual set up will pull fuel from an empty tank about as well as the stock setup because the sock filters are lowwwww. Seems like the stock system has the little piece in the bottom that will let it pull from inside or outside the canister as needed.

For a cheaper fuel system:
I will say that with the metal regulator, it will regulate in either direction. I would look at two pumps coming out of the canister with their own line. Maybe use a high pressure non braided line or aluminum fuel line (3/8") (also possibly another factory line) and then use the factory line/regulator as the return. The hardest thing would be getting the new line out of the canister. Use either flared fittings or ferrule fittings. Don't forget to change the wiring for two pumps to use a relay and larger wire pulling off the battery. That cost the price of a relay and very little wire.

Tony,
I'm not sure of the part in the pic. Is that piece that is under the regulator?
I have a 97 GTS and the canister seems to look different than any of the pics I've seen of it

Dan,
Thank you for your reply. It is very helpful.
That's a very good point about the stock pump possibly not being able to keep up with refilling the sump in the canister when the Walbro is working hard, and also the reduced capacity of the canister with the extra pump in there. I wonder if it would just be better to have the Walbro sucking outside of the canister and just pulling straight from the fuel tank itself?

Also great idea on sending it to RC for flow testing.
I could set up a home testing for some less exact comparisons by just measuring the flow for 1min. of the stock pump in the canister, and the new setup in the canister, and converting each to GPH to get an idea of increased flow.

 

[CWhiteRun]

Really??
Did you think about what you just described?
A Walbro is less than $100 and some fittings and submersible fuel line is $100 at most. So you are paying them $200 to hang the pumps in your cage? And that doesn't even pay for the labor to R&R it

I have done my homework on this...and yes I think this is the best setup you can have for the money and time. Two walbros - $100 each, Y block - $30, fuel line - $15, -8 hose fitting to pipe thread - $10, -8 an male to female pipe thread - $10. That's $265 in just parts. So I'm paying David $235 to modify my basket and stick all of that INSIDE of it...good deal in my opinion considering that it's not as easy a task as you're thinking...and especially considering that my carrier is the same as an SRTs. If you own a GTS then just pull the pump at home...R&R is free if you do it yourself and it's easy as hell. Literally did it in half an hour taking my time. If you're going to go the money saving route then I challenge you to do it better for less money than the setup I'm presenting here.

I think you took it like I just dropped the car off and had it done.....no, no, that's not me. I pulled the pump and sent it to him. Should be back soon and I'll put some pictures of it up for you to have a gander at.

 

[CWhiteRun]

Also, the pump setup I mentioned is for a return style system. -8an output added to the top of the factory carrier and the normally stock feed is used as a return...perfect for a Roe running at the limit. Would allow the use of the roe fuel line to screw into the bottom of a reg with a -6 output to return fuel. One side feeds the reg and the other side of the reg Y's off and "dead heads" the rail. The return uses the factory feed line with the filter removed to get the fuel back to the tank. I have my opinions on what's ideal and safe....returnless just doesn't cut it no matter how many check valves, voltage boosters, etc, etc, you put on there....especially after see how small the factory feed squeezes down too. That's just a disaster waiting to happen. Here's a true return style system I put together for someone elses paxton viper...and once again I challenge someone to put together as good a quality system as this for less money. Of course this isn't a universal system, but I felt it would work for him just fine.

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and here's the fitting and parts list if anyone else wants to build one similar....

Fuel Pumps to Y-block
(4) Female -6an to pushlock fittings
6ft. of -6an pushlock hose
(2) ½” Pipe thread to Male -6an fittings

Y-block to Filter
(1) ½” Pipe thread to Male -10an fitting
(1) O-ring to Male -10an (fits aeromotive filter)
(2) Female -10an to pushlock fitting
2-3ft. of -10an pushlock hose

Filter to Y-block
(1) ½” Pipe thread to Male -10an fitting
(1) O-ring to -10an fitting
(2)Female -10an to pushlock fittings
2-3ft. of -10an hose

Y-block to Fuel Rails
(2) ½” Pipe thread to Male -8an
(4) Female -8an to pushlock
4-6ft. of -8an hose

Fuel Rails to Regulator
(2) -10an O-ring to -8an male (Fits Aeromotive reg on Feed sides)
(4) Female -8an to pushlock
4-6ft. of -8an hose

Regulator to Fuel Tank Return
(1) 6an O-ring to -6an male (Fits Aeromotive reg on return side)
(2) Female -6an to pushlock
10ft. of -6an hose

29 Fittings total
Aeromotive 13101 Regulator – the fittings are unique in that they’re O-ringed on the regulator side.

Aeromotive 12304 Filter – the fittings are unique in that they’re o-ringed on the filter side.

Roe Racing Fuel Rail Kit – Includes fittings. So I did not include them in the total fittings count. Counting the fittings included with the Roe rails would bring the total up to 33.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

How would your system be any better than just replacing your stock pump with the Walbro unit?

The Walbro in the factory canister combined with the external BAP supports ~700 rwhp applications and doesn't reduce the capacity of the canister. It costs $100 and doesn't require plumbing return lines, a controller, etc.

The only advantage I can see is that you have a secondary pump operating in case the primary fails. Other than that, what other advantages are you trying to achieve?

Its all about gallons per hour.
From what I have read, the stock system runs out of flow. You replace it with the Walbro to get more gph/lph. I'm just looking at adding them together.
The stock pump is about 230lph. The Walbro is 255lph.
You are only gaining about 25lph by replacing the stock pump for a Walbro. I'm adding them together. 230+255=485lph (in theory). Obviously this is a simplified explanation of it. The actual science may not work exactly this way, but you get the idea.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I have done my homework on this...and yes I think this is the best setup you can have for the money and time. Two walbros - $100 each, Y block - $30, fuel line - $15, -8 hose fitting to pipe thread - $10, -8 an male to female pipe thread - $10. That's $265 in just parts. So I'm paying David $235 to modify my basket and stick all of that INSIDE of it...good deal in my opinion considering that it's not as easy a task as you're thinking...and especially considering that my carrier is the same as an SRTs. If you own a GTS then just pull the pump at home...R&R is free if you do it yourself and it's easy as hell. Literally did it in half an hour taking my time. If you're going to go the money saving route then I challenge you to do it better for less money than the setup I'm presenting here.

I think you took it like I just dropped the car off and had it done.....no, no, that's not me. I pulled the pump and sent it to him. Should be back soon and I'll put some pictures of it up for you to have a gander at.

Chad,
I know you were talking about pulling it yourself. I'm just stating that you are paying someone $265 to mount 2 pumps in your canister, and it doesn't even include the labor to remove it

I have the canister apart and it will not be to hard to hang 2 pumps in there. Once I figure it out, I can post here so others can see its not worth $265 to do it

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Also Chad,
I know you haven't worked with the Roe yet, so I'm going to explain why Roe guys haven't been able to use return-style fuel systems. I would let you waste the $1500 you just theoretically spent on it, but I like you
If you look at the fuel rails on a Roe, there is absolutely no room on the back of them to add a fitting, even an elbow. The inlet tunes run right around the backside of the rails.

Now, maybe Tony will let us know how he did it

BTW, I thought of the exact same setup before I realized it wouldn't work lol

 

[CWhiteRun]

Chad,
I know you were talking about pulling it yourself. I'm just stating that you are paying someone $265 to mount 2 pumps in your canister, and it doesn't even include the labor to remove it

I have the canister apart and it will not be to hard to hang 2 pumps in there. Once I figure it out, I can post here so others can see its not worth $265 to do it

I recall Tonys old post showing his modified stock carrier and I was going to mimic that...until I noticed how much cutting I would have to do to the carrier to get the pumps to set low enough for me to not have to worry about starving them for fuel below a 1/3 tank. I don't have the tools and honestly not much patience to hack into it properly...I'm a little too worried I'd destroy the stock piece and then would have to buy another and run the cost up over what I could've just bought an RSI piece for...Hence the A.R.T. solution. lol.

 

[CWhiteRun]

Also Chad,
I know you haven't worked with the Roe yet, so I'm going to explain why Roe guys haven't been able to use return-style fuel systems. I would let you waste the $1500 you just theoretically spent on it, but I like you
If you look at the fuel rails on a Roe, there is absolutely no room on the back of them to add a fitting, even an elbow. The inlet tunes run right around the backside of the rails.

Now, maybe Tony will let us know how he did it

BTW, I thought of the exact same setup before I realized it wouldn't work lol

That setup I posted was for a paxton or turbo car....I wasn't planning on running a feed to the rear of the Roe rails due to the exact reasons you mentioned...there is just no way without modifying the rails for a "midmount" angled feed and even then it's an if'y proposition. Here's a caveman version of what I was planning on doing....
Red is feed, blue is return

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[BOTTLEFED]

Nice thinking
but it doesn't look anything like what you posted above and gave all the listing for.

I'm not a fluid dynamicist so I couldn't comment on whether it will work or not. But it would be interesting to find out. Good luck.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I'm trying to stay away from a return-style setup because of the extra cost and hassle of running new fuel lines under the car and mounting a filter and worrying about all the fittings.
My setup is simple, adds a significant amount of flow, and uses mostly stock parts, only adding an additional pump and controller (where are the cheap parts again Russ?).
This is an alternate choice to only replacing the stock pump with a Walbro and will support a little higher levels.

 

[1TONY1]

That's correct, returning right off the regulator. Pretty much the easiest way with a Roe.

That setup I posted was for a paxton or turbo car....I wasn't planning on running a feed to the rear of the Roe rails due to the exact reasons you mentioned...there is just no way without modifying the rails for a "midmount" angled feed and even then it's an if'y proposition. Here's a caveman version of what I was planning on doing....
Red is feed, blue is return

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[1TONY1]

I recall Tonys old post showing his modified stock carrier and I was going to mimic that...until I noticed how much cutting I would have to do to the carrier to get the pumps to set low enough for me to not have to worry about starving them for fuel below a 1/3 tank. I don't have the tools and honestly not much patience to hack into it properly...I'm a little too worried I'd destroy the stock piece and then would have to buy another and run the cost up over what I could've just bought an RSI piece for...Hence the A.R.T. solution. lol.

Not a lot of cutting, but patience is required If the RSI had been out when I did mine at their last sale price I saw, I certainly would have done it.

To put them in the stock canister I couldn't figure out a better way to do it for ease, secure pumps and no fuel starvation

 

[CWhiteRun]

I'm trying to stay away from a return-style setup because of the extra cost and hassle of running new fuel lines under the car and mounting a filter and worrying about all the fittings.
My setup is simple, adds a significant amount of flow, and uses mostly stock parts, only adding an additional pump and controller (where are the cheap parts again Russ?).
This is an alternate choice to only replacing the stock pump with a Walbro and will support a little higher levels.

Race parts solutions has a ton of fittings and used to give a GOOD discount if you told them you are a member of theturboforums.com...as far as running a return inexpensively then look into some pushlok fuel line or the nylon braided fuel line. I think you'll be surprised at just how affordable that stuff is...

 

[CWhiteRun]

Nice thinking
but it doesn't look anything like what you posted above and gave all the listing for.

Yeah...my bad on that. I was going through my photobucket when I found that and figured I'd share in case anyone was interested in giving it a shot.

 

[Red Snake]

Its all about gallons per hour.
From what I have read, the stock system runs out of flow. You replace it with the Walbro to get more gph/lph. I'm just looking at adding them together.
The stock pump is about 230lph. The Walbro is 255lph.
You are only gaining about 25lph by replacing the stock pump for a Walbro. I'm adding them together. 230+255=485lph (in theory). Obviously this is a simplified explanation of it. The actual science may not work exactly this way, but you get the idea.

Gotcha. What are the flow rates with the BAP? I'm at 660rwhp and getting plenty of fuel with one 255 +BAP.

 

[CWhiteRun]

Gotcha. What are the flow rates with the BAP? I'm at 660rwhp and getting plenty of fuel with one 255 +BAP.

I'm impressed that a standard walbro 255 intank can even survive for long periods of time in a returnless fuel system. The pumps would fail way back when this was attempted with the 03-04 cobra fuel systems due to current constantly changing to meet the engines demands. If anything I would be interested to see two Ford GT fuel pumps put into a stock vipers carrier. They were designed for voltage/current variations and support a lot of pressure/flow in high powered cobras. If someone does test flow rates on here then I'd be interested to see what the readings are right out of the pump and what they would be before running into the fuel rails.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Gotcha. What are the flow rates with the BAP? I'm at 660rwhp and getting plenty of fuel with one 255 +BAP.

That would be difficult to measure consistently since the BAP varies voltage constantly.

I'm at 660rwhp on the stock pump with a BAP and I'm not running out of fuel either

 

[CWhiteRun]

That would be difficult to measure consistently since the BAP varies voltage constantly.

I'm at 660rwhp on the stock pump with a BAP and I'm not running out of fuel either

That is mind blowing to me....these cars are just strange. 600+whp through a fuel line that small with room to spare...wow.

 

[Red Snake]

That would be difficult to measure consistently since the BAP varies voltage constantly.

I'm at 660rwhp on the stock pump with a BAP and I'm not running out of fuel either

That's interesting. I ran out of fuel at 635 rwhp on the stock fuel pump+BAP and the 8 pound pulley (stock motor).