IMHO the Viper has lost it's way

[Lawrenzo]

I have been back and forth about buying another Viper and have come to the opinion that our latest Viper has lost some of it's original appeal to me. When it first came out the huge V10 provided boatloads of low end torque, and it pretty much stayed that way on through the Gen 3's. With the introduction of the VVT engine the peak HP and especially the torque has been moved way up the RPM range, effectively changing the overall character of the experience. Those of us that have owned all 3(or 4) generations know what I'm speaking of. Yes, the new cars have overall better driving experiences, but their "soul" has been somewhat lost.

Looking over this chart we can see how things have changed, so much so that in the latest VIPER magazine(page 25) the writers chose to compare the new Gen5 to a 17 year old Gen2. They even go on to say "It feels almost as though a turbo has spooled up as the throttle climbs dramatically with the RPM". If I wanted a "turbo experience" I'd go buy a Porsche.

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As a result I've decided to try something completely new. Something with a much flatter torque curve- a 2014 Shelby GT500.(keep in mind that this is a chassis dyno graph so add about 70 to each #) Hopefully it stirs my soul like the Gen2's & Gen3's did. If SRT decides to bring out a roots type supercharged ACR I'll be thrilled.

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[01sapphirebob]

Some of the price to pay for keeping the car N/A I suppose? I will admit that my GEN II gives me the "Oh S*&t" driving experience over my GEN IV but I still like my GEN IV and wouldn't trade it for another car (other then a Viper)

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

But, but, that awesome interior and fancy wheels..................

 

[georgethedog]

Interesting point of view. Yea, if the graphs do translate to a lowered "OH S$$T" experience there will be some dissappointed owners. All my Gen 1-3 Vipers gave me that "hold on tight, baby" when I floored it from a dead stop. That was a trill everytime. I don't get that with my SRT-8 Challenger... Yet... But once it is supercharged (Magnusun is a Roots SC) and tuned I think that feeling will come back. Also, the tune will get rid of that annoying delay in the trottle.

 

[Lawrenzo]

I never should have sold my Sapphire ACR That car was bold and brash and had loads of low end grunt.

Hopefully I don't end up being like one of those bitter old guys that laments selling his prized 1970 Hemi 'Cuda back in the day

 

[01sapphirebob]

I never should have sold my Sapphire ACR That car was bold and brash and had loads of low end grunt.

Hopefully I don't end up being like one of those bitter old guys that laments selling his prized 1970 Hemi 'Cuda back in the day

I do miss that car from time to time as well.

 

[intense5.5]

The new interior sure is nice. Put it in a genIV ACR for me, and make the coupe a targa (as someone photoshopped in the genV section) and I'd never want another car.

 

[troublemaker]

Interesting comparison. I always thought the Gen2 had the most torque down low, but from the graph it looks like the complete opposite. The Gen4 looks like it hits hard, flattens out the really comes to life.

 

[chorps]

The torque curve combined with the e-gas throttle lag on the Gen IV isn't as thrilling as the Gen II was. Combine that with the modern driveline (brakes, diff and especially tires) and the Gen IV felt too tame in some ways. Maybe it's just me but having the torque down low was the funnest part of driving the Gen II Viper, like an intravenous drug hooked into your right foot.

The Gen IV 'spools up' but it feels less immediate and in a sense, disconnected. On the track it doesn't matter but on the street the Gen IV seems less fun because I have to be going sooooo fast just to make the Viper wake up that I feel like I'm totally antisocial and way beyond any normal boundaries.

 

[malcoll]

The Shelby is a nice car... I had a 2008 for a few years... kept my Gen 1.5 during that time..... and sold both when I picked up the Gen 3..... Again Shelby is a nice car but it's just not the same experience as the Viper to drive every day........ Granted my Shelby was 2008 with the measly 500HP...until I upgraded the pulley and intake..... I hope it works out for you!

 

[Paul Hawker]

I remember driving a 94 at the drags in Pomona. It got out of the hole ok, but was pretty much done at 3,600 RPM. Best performance was short shifting, and you traded a good low end for a flat upper range.

My 96 did much better on the road courses. While it also flattened out above 4,500 RPM, it would still pull and you did not need to shift up in the middle of a corner.

I supercharged my 03, and it was a hoot to drive on the street. Tires quickly lost adhesion, and you would correct sway with steering. Great fun, but really not much faster either on road course or drags. It was just too much power for the chassis.

For me the power delivery of the 09 is the best so far. It diggs quickly out of the hole, but does not spin the tires up in smoke. There is no need to short shift, so you get long pulls with great excitement on the top of the tach. Personally I love this big cam feeling. Each shift after first keeps you in the bigger power range up top.

If you wish the old time feeling, just short shift, and you will not be bothered with the whelling feeling of power on the top end.

For me, all Vipers have has that big block, lots of torque delivery. It is just that with better control of valve opening duration the top end has been vastly improved.

 

[ACRucrazy]

You can keep your Gen, 1, 2, & 3 dyno charts. I will take the Gen 4 and 5 track results.

 

[Makara]

I remember driving a 94 at the drags in Pomona. It got out of the hole ok, but was pretty much done at 3,600 RPM. Best performance was short shifting, and you traded a good low end for a flat upper range.

It may have felt that way but if I remember correct, doing the math, you get more power at the rear wheels by always bringing it up to redline in every gear.

 

[Moundir]

What the hell are you guys talking about?! Other than the stupid drive by wire lag, the gen 4 has more torque than thegen 2 all across the rpm range including down low at start! Just look at the graph you are posting as proof! If you want the Oh $hit feeling from a gen 4 then throw on some old ass michellin pilot sports and you will have it!

 

[purplesnake]

What the hell are you guys talking about?! Other than the stupid drive by wire lag, the gen 4 has more torque than thegen 2 all across the rpm range including down low at start! Just look at the graph you are posting as proof! If you want the Oh $hit feeling from a gen 4 then throw on some old ass michellin pilot sports and you will have it!

Just throw in a 3:55 gear in a gen 4. Completes the car and satisfies what is being discussed in this thread. IMHO a must do!

 

[Dom426h]

Lawrenzo,

The Variable cam/valve systems themselves do not take away from the "bottom end"(lower rpms). All that they do is ADD to the top end of a given motor.

However, in many vehicles where fuel economy is a design constraint. Variable systems can be used to mislead the consumer with power specs that may not be relevant to them. For example a small efficient motor that gets great gas mileage can have a variable system implemented to create a nice peak horsepower spec for marketing while the epa fuel economy remains great because at no point in the epa test does the motor get above 4K where the variable system would kick in making more power and burning exponentially more fuel.

So its all about the base motor when talking about "bottom end"

Our Base 8.X liter V10 has remained through the generations thankfully and the bottom end power has remained fairly consistent despite the graph that dodge produced with a stretched Y axis to exaggerate the difference & show more detail.

I have not driven a Gen4 Viper but assume that the experience of its power is similar to my bolt-on Gen2 just as long as you keep her under ~4K rpms.
After, ~4K The gen 4's motor is capable of optimizing its self to perform more efficiently at higher rpms to make to more power. A lot more power.

 

[PDCjonny]

All I know is when the Gen 4 hit 3500+ it pulled like a damn freight train.
I never felt anything like it.

 

[Paul Hawker]

True dat.

When I run earlier gen's on the street I pull them just a bit on the bottom, but walk away from them once over 4,500 RPM. It is a real rush, and in a good way.

As previous posters have mentioned, one of the reasons the earlier generations feel stronger was that their tires were not as stickey as the new ones.

 

[purplesnake]

All I know is when the Gen 4 hit 3500+ it pulled like a damn freight train.
I never felt anything like it.

Yep on that. And I came straight from a gen3.