Information from Chrysler on 2015 Viper

[05Commemorative]

Much of what you say is spot on, but you have many assumptions built into your statements both about sales # goals, what the problem is and how to fix, so lets look at it a bit closer.

The Viper has not sold in great #'s (more than 1k per year) since the 2006 Gen3. None of the Gen4 years sold more even though outrageous looks and power for the time when considering you had three models (ACR, Coupe and Conv). Yes, folks will blame on the economy, but that was not all of those years and not the whole problem. Clear example of just adding HP did not help.

The assumption of what people talk about and what they are willing to pay for are two different things. Keyboards have everyone with unlimited funds and desires, but when you find out most G5 non-purchasers have not sat in one, driven one or even taken a serious look, it makes you wonder. For months, it was the 140k price that folks complained about, but now they still complain about price which is a fancy way of saying I could not afford it at the higher price or the lower price, or I simply do not like the car.

To fix the problem (of selling 1k cars a year) is very obvious in my opinion:
1) offer an auto as an option
2) have a convert
3) market it properly
4) teach your dealers how to sell it

heck, a conv and auto will immediately get you many gen3 owners just waiting.

But when folks suggest only part of the past (gen2 were wild, etc...) and not all of it (100hp bump in Gen4 did nothing for sales), it is problematic. I guess we can all speculate as easy for someone to say the car is not selling, so it is purely the products fault. (not always reality) Also just as easy for folks with experience to the car to say it is great and that nobody knows about it. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

Of those four items, the biggest challenge is #4. They don't know how to sell a 100k car. Having an auto might help them some, but even doing a common profiling of your customers walking in the door would be useful. They don't have the skill.

What do some of you owners want? For all of us to just pretend the G5 is NOT a sales failure because the target demographic and most of its own niche do not think its enough car for them to open up THEIR wallets?

When you bring out a product and the masses don't think it is as great as you and the comparitive few that bought it think, what do you do? Keep it the same and market it to only those scant few that bought it and think its great the way it is? Do you only listen to those few that bought your product or do you listen to the constructive criticism from the majority that didnt? If Dodge doesnt listen and change the Viper to what their target demo want in a modern car then the car will die period.

The squeeky wheel gets the lube. Notice the rumored moves Dodge may be going toward with the Viper. SC possibly which lots of us/them have been clamoring for from day one etc and a more potent TA that can beat a ZR1 by more than .01 secs. These are not "bashing" comments but reveal the "perception" those magazine test left on many of the masses and on many in the Vipers own niche crowd. Those things are far more responsible for the lack of sales and the bad image of the Viper than any posters on a forum.

IMHO the G5 is a great car overall just in the wrong era if sales are what you are after. I remember when the G2 GTS came out and many dropped some serious cash to do Venzano interiors, add high-end stereo equipment, add more compliant suspensions etc. They wanted a more livable and obviously more modernized GTS. I think Ralph gave them that and a whole lot more with the G5 and I love that but it is just a few years too late.

I think the looks/lines are nice but not in your face or aggressive like the original GTS was in its era as some have alluded to. Performance-wise it is no question a FAST car in the straights and especially in the twisties. But in this era people are looking for all the bells and whistles for 100k plus not just performance. If the car was outrageous in this era in both looks and performance I think there is no question it would have sold better. You just cant beat a defunct competitor by .1 secs and say your performance is outrageous. The Viper has always been synonymous with outrageous etc. I think they have to wholly reinvent the Viper if they still want to go after that high-end niche and get the majority of the Vipers own niche to get on board. If you are not going to give the target demo what they want then you have to make the thing so outrageous that they will overlook the lack of DCT etc and buy it just to "experience" it. Like I said before if its a halo car it is fine they way it is but if sales are what you are after, and they are, then it has to change. Just my non-bashing two cents.

 

[05Commemorative]

Ahh, a good question related to the actual topic. I run R6's, so can't speak to it with any direct experience. Seems like Bruce should be getting close to wearing his out. If he purchased the cups and went back to the tracks he has been at, it would be a great comparison. But to you point, for one lap (likely 3 laps) wonders, it would be good to know if a significant difference or not in the tires. Has nobody run both tires and compared their times?

The one challenge the Viper might have in beating the new competition (Vette, Porsche, whoever, etc) is the tires. If Viper stays on the Corsa's, I wonder how much their tread depth hinders an ultimate fast lap compared to a Trofeo or Sport Cup that has less molded tread depth. I might be wrong, but it appears to me that the Corsa tire has more tread depth than other R-compound tires and although a mere mortal Viper driver would not be able to really tell the difference, a pro hot shoe might not be able to get the most out of the car.

From what I see on the spec sheets, here are the following tread depths:

Corsa = 8/32"
Sport Cups = 6/32"
Toyo R888s = 6/32"
Nitto NT01 = 6/32"
Hoosier R6 = 4/32"

I cannot find a specification on a tread depth for the Trofeo's on the Pirelli website, but Tire Rack lists them between 6/32" and 7/32" in their product description.

Unfortunately marketing is all about a one lap wonder and the ultimate fast time a car can do for one lap. With a pro driver and the level of capability the Gen 5 TA 2.0 may have, not having a true shallow molded tread R-compound will not truly show what the car is capable of and once again hurt its rankings in the world of public perception. The 2015 TA needs a better track tire if it is to compete and be number one again.

 

[STORMCAT]

I agree with you and this guy. I am a Ford GT owner. I was waiting for a new Radically designed Viper. I watched the live reveal , What we got a retro rehash of the old body. The interior is better for sure. I was extremely sad by what I saw.

Obviously the new car did not bring the new outside customers the "Porsche " guys etc.. I am one of those outside guys that SRT was hoping to attract and they failed

I have been here a long time waiting for A new Viper to lust for and it never came. I still hear the purists and ********* Viper guys here on this site putting down the changes that were needed. It seems they got what hey wanted and here we are..

If you keep the Viper light I don't think you need 900HP as this guy states but something in the mid 700HP range is needed for sure. I hope the Viper survives long enough to give us something really new to look at. I am not sure of the spelling but that Valadoo design was cool !!

THIS GUY NAILED IT.

I'll throw out my professional opinion as an Industrial Designer.

It's because it's ugly and outdated. There have been, now, 3 major revisions of the Corvette since the Viper debuted in '92. While each has kept certain design cues that make them 'vettes, they've been major redesigns over the c4 (which ran until '96, 4 years after the viper launch).

In '92 the Viper was extreme by comparison to the fairly tame vette and higher priced Ferraris and Porsches. It had no exterior door handles, roof or windows. no driver aids, and a freakin V-10. Even when the released the coupe in '96, it was still looked great compared to the C4 and even when the C5 hit, the viper still seemed so much more over the top that it kept it's image, all while it's ******** nature was being dilluted with subtle changes like windows, rerouting the exhaust, etc.

When the first complete redesign came in '02 it looked great, but the beastly nature of the first gen had been replaced by an almost over-refined, yet still monstrously powerful sports car. If I were to choose a Viper based on looks alone, i'd pick this generation. While it maintained certain cues of the first gen, it progressed the look very well. But over the next decade, with the progression of the Vette, 911 and almost every european sports car, even this Viper began showing it's age, and it just wasn't extreme anymore. Other v10s were hitting the market from Audi and Lambo, the definition of extreme had been pushed so far by Bugatti that the Viper (while much less expensive) seemed mundane.

So when the current gen came out, I had hoped for the complete rebirth of the car that was so needed, rather than simply the same-old, same-old look we got, this time bringing back the body lines of the first gen, but a ridiculously cartoonish hood and nose treatment. I'd have accepted a well refined gentlemen's sports car, or all-out insanity on wheels. Stylistically, we got neither. No imagination, no poster car for a 12-year-old's wall, no beast.

The first Viper was purpose built around a monster of an engine. The current, seems to merely exist until they think of something better to do with it. Yeah, it's got power, but like everyone's saying, it's not Hellcat power. So where's the insanity? In a time when a lesser family sedan can have as much HP as the first gen Viper, it's hard to think of the current viper the same way we thought of the first.

A next gen viper needs to be so over-the-top, toddlers cry at the very sight of it. If the Hellcat Charger/Challenger is going to top 700hp, the Viper needs to hit 900 minimum. 22 years of history aren't enough to lock in it's core design language the way the Vette has, for the viper to survive, it doesn't need to evolve, it needs a complete rebirth. If the next next zr-1's going to be mid-engine, do it first. The fact that the hellcats exist, tells me that the time is finally right for the Viper to get the redesign it deserves, and we can only hope they get the picture.

 

[ScrewDrvr]

/\
Im sure Bob will be here shortly to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about pertaining to your subjective opinion on the looks of the car.

 

[Bobpantax]

He has a right to like what he likes but what he wrote has nothing to do with the thread. It is also amusing that he loves an updated version of the GT40 that remained very loyal to the original design. Why didn't he wait for something more radical? LOL. The Gen V design is, and will remain, a masterpiece over time.

I see Mr. **** the Vette is at it again above. Is Chevy giving you frequent flyer points or what?

Viper production has always and intentionally been very limited. Used Viper prices are actually quite good. Far better than Vette prices since Vettes are a dime a dozen and always will be.

The changes for 2016 are interesting and those who actually know something about the Gen V and who have driven the car hopefully will chime in about them and add vaue to the thread.

 

[ScrewDrvr]

He has a right to like what he likes

For those of you who "feel" the Gen V design is not good enough I suggest that you drive a black TA around for a day or two. Why? Because you do not have a clue as to what you are talking about.

oops



I dont care about vette looks, prices, resale, or anything else your tinfoiled covered head is eventing. If I wanted a Corvette I'd go outside and drive 1 mile in any direction and find one to buy. I do care about the Viper and the performance of cars it is directly competing with.

Or maybe I AM one of those GM spies planted to dissuade any positive talk of the viper like you mentioned earlier.

Oh crap, maybe YOU are a spy sent here by Dodge to fight off any opinion that isnt considered 100% positive. I've said too much, both of our covers are blown. Im gonna double down on my tinfoil hat to feel safe.

 

[Bobpantax]

He has a right to like what he likes but that does not mean he knows what he is talking about. LOL. I would be proud to be a spy for Dodge. This is the Gen V Forum of the Viper Club of America. We support the Viper, Dodge and SRT. Some who post here quite obviously do not and it shows.

The 2016 TA, like the 2014 TA, will kick asp on the road course. All 2015 Vipers will continue to be rare, limited edition vehicles. All will have 645 HP with more if desired now that an aftermarket calibration device for the Gen V has recently been released.

 

[pathoguy]

Most viper owners or potential owners do not post on car forums. Posters represent a tiny minority of the viper community. Same thing with any car forum, so the views represented here do not necessarily coincide with those of the silent majority.

All the negative posts mean that a whole lot of folk (owners and non-owners) are unhappy with the way the viper is evolving. Not sure when this movement really started, but the modest bump from 600 to 640 left many feeling empty. Having a factory mustang with more hp than the G5 didn't help. Then a factory vette with more hp didn't help. Many folk that are looking at buying such a car are influenced more by hp numbers than track/strip times. Comments like this Giles guy saying there's an internal horsepower war (challenger versus viper) doesn't help. Wars infer conflict. Then the halo car having 60+ hp less than a 4 dr Dodge doesn't help. Then the pricing, too many GTSs, dealer apathy. Just a constant series of fubars.

All this forum infighting is just an expression of outrage. People are pi$$ed. The viper cannot survive like this.

 

[Bruce H.]

Or... maybe buyers will start to discover what a great car the Gen V is and sales will finally start to reflect that fact!

The C&D 2014 Lightning Lap Comparison will draw the attention of those looking for serious performance.

http://i.imgur.com/UUfsCV8.jpg

 

[MoparMap]

..All the negative posts mean that a whole lot of folk (owners and non-owners) are unhappy with the way the viper is evolving...

I think this is where things can get a little misleading too though. How often does someone who likes something stand up and say they like it? You're much more likely to see people complain online about a product than to write a glowing review. We do have both here, but it seems like people like to ignore the good reviews and only focus on the bad ones. If you look up a review for anything you'll almost always find someone who has had a bad experience. What would be interesting is to look up the usernames for everyone that has been posting pro and con for the car. Multiple threads pop up that turn into conversations regarding the Viper's future and it's usually the same players in each thread that are voicing their opinions either way (I'm as guilty as the next guy, I'll admit). It might look like everyone is clamoring for an auto, but in reality it's maybe 5 people that mention it each time a thread comes up about it.

I think the main issue is really visibility. It doesn't feel to me like the car is in the public eye. I don't think there is a single commercial that actively tries to sell the Viper. Sure there are commercials that the Viper is in (Autotrader, some Dodge commercials, etc), but, to me at least, they aren't saying "Hey! Go out and look at a Viper! They're cool fast cars that start at $90k for a base model!" People walk into a dealership and see the one fully optioned car that a dealer bought stickering at $120-140k and think that's the price of admission. They don't realize you can order one for nearly 1/3 of that cost.

 

[DMan]

Or... maybe buyers will start to discover what a great car the Gen V is and sales will finally start to reflect that fact!

The C&D 2014 Lightning Lap Comparison will draw the attention of those looking for serious performance.

http://i.imgur.com/UUfsCV8.jpg

Well, there you go using logic, this is internet and magazine readers - I fully expect those results to spin into "look, the base vette was right there with the best viper, wait for the Z06 to come and see what happens, hec the Camaro almost beat the viper, etc"

There's logic and people who really understand the details of tires, etc., and then there's the mass market & perception. To a closed group, the viper gen5 has proven itself world class, no doubt, but to the rest I don't see this result helping any, it'd have to have had so total blow out perf ... although the mag would still find a way to put it down. Marketing vs the truth is tough.

 

[Bobpantax]

The underlined parts below show an internal inconsistency. All the negative posts show is that some posters are unhappy with the car not "a whole lot". The comments of negative posters, most of whom have admitted that they have not driven the car and some of whom have not even seen it up close, make comments that I have not heard from anyone who has seen my car either during day to day driving, at a car show last Spring ( Gold level plaque awarded) or at a track venue. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who sees the car, has a very favorable response.

As I mentioned above, the one flaw I have seen is clearly the marketing. Why? Because more than 50% of the people I run into say: " I did not know they make the Viper anymore." The fact that that is still ocurring after almost two years from the New York reveal proves that there has been a massive marketing failure.

On the other hand, from a purely selfish point of view, it is nice to be driving a vehicle that is so rare.

So don't give up on the Viper yet. Let's see how Dodge's approach to marketing the Viper evolves. So far their efforts for the Hellcats has been pretty good.

Most viper owners or potential owners do not post on car forums. Posters represent a tiny minority of the viper community. Same thing with any car forum, so the views represented here do not necessarily coincide with those of the silent majority.

All the negative posts mean that a whole lot of folk (owners and non-owners) are unhappy with the way the viper is evolving. Not sure when this movement really started, but the modest bump from 600 to 640 left many feeling empty. Having a factory mustang with more hp than the G5 didn't help. Then a factory vette with more hp didn't help. Many folk that are looking at buying such a car are influenced more by hp numbers than track/strip times. Comments like this Giles guy saying there's an internal horsepower war (challenger versus viper) doesn't help. Wars infer conflict. Then the halo car having 60+ hp less than a 4 dr Dodge doesn't help. Then the pricing, too many GTSs, dealer apathy. Just a constant series of fubars.

All this forum infighting is just an expression of outrage. People are pi$$ed. The viper cannot survive like this.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Much of what you say is spot on, but you have many assumptions built into your statements both about sales # goals, what the problem is and how to fix, so lets look at it a bit closer.

The Viper has not sold in great #'s (more than 1k per year) since the 2006 Gen3. None of the Gen4 years sold more even though outrageous looks and power for the time when considering you had three models (ACR, Coupe and Conv). Yes, folks will blame on the economy, but that was not all of those years and not the whole problem. Clear example of just adding HP did not help.

The assumption of what people talk about and what they are willing to pay for are two different things. Keyboards have everyone with unlimited funds and desires, but when you find out most G5 non-purchasers have not sat in one, driven one or even taken a serious look, it makes you wonder. For months, it was the 140k price that folks complained about, but now they still complain about price which is a fancy way of saying I could not afford it at the higher price or the lower price, or I simply do not like the car.

To fix the problem (of selling 1k cars a year) is very obvious in my opinion:
1) offer an auto as an option
2) have a convert
3) market it properly
4) teach your dealers how to sell it

heck, a conv and auto will immediately get you many gen3 owners just waiting.

But when folks suggest only part of the past (gen2 were wild, etc...) and not all of it (100hp bump in Gen4 did nothing for sales), it is problematic. I guess we can all speculate as easy for someone to say the car is not selling, so it is purely the products fault. (not always reality) Also just as easy for folks with experience to the car to say it is great and that nobody knows about it. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

Of those four items, the biggest challenge is #4. They don't know how to sell a 100k car. Having an auto might help them some, but even doing a common profiling of your customers walking in the door would be useful. They don't have the skill.

My post was definitely a lot of oversimplification on how to correct the problem I will give you that. Much of what you said I concur with and have said in past posts so I am well aware of the 4 points you mentioned but at this point we all are really rehashing the same points over and over. Dodge has to get it together with the Viper period. Oh and being significantly faster than your main rival will NOT hurt sales.

 

[pathoguy]

So don't give up on the Viper yet. Let's see how Dodge's approach to marketing the Viper evolves. So far their efforts for the Hellcats has been pretty good.

Agreed.

It's a car that evokes deep emotions. In my SUV today because of stormy forecast and really miss the thing even though I drove it to work yesterday. Just cannot get enough of it. ...Eight months of ownership and I still walk around it after parking, not to inspect...to admire.

 

[Bobpantax]

Me too. I think it is pathological. LOL.

Agreed.

It's a car that evokes deep emotions. In my SUV today because of stormy forecast and really miss the thing even though I drove it to work yesterday. Just cannot get enough of it. ...Eight months of ownership and I still walk around it after parking, not to inspect...to admire.

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

In 1996 had a new 96 RT 10 and 97 had a new 97 B/W GTS.Now those were Vipers,nothing out ran them,local South Fl.VCA was outstanding,raced,parties,road trips.beers and the fine women were attracted to the Vipers.Most important,NO ONE,ever, in person or on the internet ever talked any shixxx about a Viper.That was because the Viper was the Boss.While the Gen.5 is a good HP car,it no longer dominates as it did,thats were all this unhappiness and bashing starts.This will never end,unless Dodges steps up and does a Hellcat on the Viper....I hope they do so all this bitc.... will stop and Bob can relax....

I personally would like to give Dodge my next couple hundred grand for the next toy rather than to the Germans,but they need to earn it...

 

[Free2go]

This will never end,unless Dodges steps up and does a Hellcat on the Viper....I hope they do so all this bitc.... will stop and Bob can relax.

All you track guys, can you imagine coming out of a turn and opening up that supercharger into the straight aways? Wooooohooooo! Probably need some bigger brakes too.

 

[Free2go]

All you track guys, can you imagine coming out of a turn and opening up that supercharger into the straight aways? Wooooohooooo! Probably need some bigger brakes too.

Bob...take off your tax attorney cap and think about it.

 

[05Commemorative]

See, this is the funny part, if you have tracked at all, you would know the one place that becomes the most boring is what you just described. The straights are the places to relax because no skill involved. also, having that same SC run great for a couple laps and then not and only become a 200lb anchor in the front is not what anyone looks for there. I remember when I first started, it was all about how fast I was on the straight. I suspect because we are all trained that way from the street and HS. How fast does it go? How much HP does it have? But, after tracking, those two items are no longer mentioned. Its about track time, speed in turns, how well it braked and handled, grip, etc. Just a different world that sheds a whole new light on cars and their abilities and a drivers skills. It is just too bad many more don't actively do it so they can better appreciate it.

Again, the SC is for the street short burst and maybe the strip. looks cool and I have on all of my daily drivers, but never on a car I take to the track.

All you track guys, can you imagine coming out of a turn and opening up that supercharger into the straight aways? Wooooohooooo! Probably need some bigger brakes too.

 

[Free2go]

See, this is the funny part, if you have tracked at all, you would know the one place that becomes the most boring is what you just described. The straights are the places to relax because no skill involved. also, having that same SC run great for a couple laps and then not and only become a 200lb anchor in the front is not what anyone looks for there. I remember when I first started, it was all about how fast I was on the straight. I suspect because we are all trained that way from the street and HS. How fast does it go? How much HP does it have? But, after tracking, those two items are no longer mentioned. Its about track time, speed in turns, how well it braked and handled, grip, etc. Just a different world that sheds a whole new light on cars and their abilities and a drivers skills. It is just too bad many more don't actively do it so they can better appreciate it.

Again, the SC is for the street short burst and maybe the strip. looks cool and I have on all of my daily drivers, but never on a car I take to the track.

Ahhh...just when I thought you were done with the condescending $hit. I guess we will get to see you make this same argument after the new Z06 makes it's "super charged" track debut.

 

[Paul Hawker]

Sometimes we tend to forget that the whole reason for a sports car is to turn money into fun.

Since the very beginning the Viper was designed to connect the driver to the driving experience and make the trip fun.

Dodge has done this in spades.

When you decide to compare performance to other cars, withing a couple tenths of a second, you may be missing the whole point.

A jet airliner is much faster than a Viper, however the Viper is much more fun.

So put down your keyboard, and go out for a ride. It will all become much clearer why the Viper is designed the way it is.

 

[05Commemorative]

Wow, such great advice. Just did that and it makes a world of difference.

Sometimes we tend to forget that the whole reason for a sports car is to turn money into fun.

Since the very beginning the Viper was designed to connect the driver to the driving experience and make the trip fun.

Dodge has done this in spades.

When you decide to compare performance to other cars, withing a couple tenths of a second, you may be missing the whole point.

A jet airliner is much faster than a Viper, however the Viper is much more fun.

So put down your keyboard, and go out for a ride. It will all become much clearer why the Viper is designed the way it is.

 

[05Commemorative]

Was not trying to be condescending, I really was not. Just pointing out what you would hear from all those that track their cars and think that is the priority. If street racing, drag racing or car show bragging, then you have different requirements. But when you call out all the track guys with your statement, it is mis-applied. Now, if you were referring to drag strip or street racers, totally with you.

Ahhh...just when I thought you were done with the condescending $hit. I guess we will get to see you make this same argument after the new Z06 makes it's "super charged" track debut.

 

[Bobpantax]

Thank you for your insight into the subject of this thread. Everyone here is awestruck at your intelligence and depth of thought. Here is a video of my almost 14 year old Ford Lightning beating one of your beloved Vettes. I do not drag race my TA. It is not built for that purpose. How about showing us some of your efforts at either the drag strip, on a road course, or doing a standing mile. But please start your own thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEuNw3Pvwbw

Lets see if VIPER last close to 30 years missing '07,'11 and '12 years let alone VETTE with 60 years under its belt
Just like a child crying about the competition and true facts. Its funny he doesn't get on anyone else who mentions VETTES/Z06/ZR1 .
I heard through the grapevine a certain VETTE has been whipping BOBPs butt at the track. Poor sport .
WATCHOUT FOR THE HELLCAT it just opened a big can of "WHIP ASS" on VIPER, Now where is the VIPER HP??????????

 

[Bobpantax]

I agree. On a road course, it is the braking and cornering. The drag race out of the corner up the straight is fun but requires far less skill. In drag racing it is more about reaction time to the tree; maintaining traction, and staying in your lane unless you have a stick. Then shifting adds complexity.

A non manual car is much eassier to launch and drive down the strip. But things get interesting when you get to the upper NHRA classes like Supergas, Supercomp and Top Dragster even without shifting. When I did my 207 MPH/6.79 second run referenced in my signature below, a whole different level of skill set was required. Fortunately for me, I had a great teacher. The last thing anyone wants to experience is a loss of control while accelerating toward 200 MPH in the quarter.

I tracked ( road course) my former supercharged Gen III a few times. It used to be a hoot pulling away from just about everything coming out of the corners but like you said, eventually heat soak would set in and I would start to lose some power.

Was not trying to be condescending, I really was not. Just pointing out what you would hear from all those that track their cars and think that is the priority. If street racing, drag racing or car show bragging, then you have different requirements. But when you call out all the track guys with your statement, it is mis-applied. Now, if you were referring to drag strip or street racers, totally with you.

 

[05Commemorative]

Sunsalem, let me get this right, if the Gen5 offered and auto, you would get one instantly?

Your comment saying the only things you liked about the Gen5 is the interior and tale lights threw me. Maybe just me, but I need to like much more than the interior, tail lights and have an auto to spend 100k on a car...

 

[Free2go]

There isn't one Gen V owner on this forum who won't be wanting more out of their car in a few years. You will either want to modify or get the newer version. That in and of itself is an admission of either some sort of perceived inadequacy in the car.....or a perceived inadequacy in yourself.

 

[Bobpantax]

Additional news.

There is now a news story that there is going to be an OEM convertible in the Spring of 2015.

I respectfully request that those who find it necessary to bash the car post elesewhere. Your posts are driving legitimate posters who would otherwise make useful contributions away from the Gen V forum ( I have been PM'd by some) and the VCA forum in general. So if you can't help yourself, please consider posting on the otrher two forums available - VOA and VA. Thank you.

 

[Free2go]

So if you can't help yourself, please consider posting on the otrher two forums available - VOA and VA. Thank you.

They can also post in Viperforums.net, Viper Garage, and Venemousvipers.com as well.....

 

[Chelseasnake]

Additional news.

There is now a news story that there is going to be an OEM convertible in the Spring of 2015.

I respectfully request that those who find it necessary to bash the car post elesewhere. Your posts are driving legitimate posters who would otherwise make useful contributions away from the Gen V forum ( I have been PM'd by some) and the VCA forum in general. So if you can't help yourself, please consider posting on the otrher two forums available - VOA and VA. Thank you.

where is the news story??