Intro and "Man My Stock Brakes ****" Comment

[PilotaX]

Just wanted to introduce myself as a relatively new owner of a 2000 GTS, Gray/White. The car had 1800 miles on the odo when I bought it a few months ago. I'm now approaching 3000 miles and doing a few upgrades.

The first upgrade is going to be Tom's rear brake upgrade... I've raced in a variety of pro and club road racing organizations since 1996 and I needed all of that experience last weekend when I-5 decided to come to an unexpected and complete stop right in front of me. I pressed the brakes but wasn't slowing fast enough. So I pressed harder, which locked the fronts... I modulated the pedal, but locked the fronts again. At that point I just let off completely and made a quick evasive maneuver toward the shoulder. It worked out fine, but I'd prefer not to go through that again next time I have to stop quickly!

Tom, hopefully you are still making the rear caliper upgrade and receive my PM soon.

Cheers,

"Doc"

 

[IEATVETS]

Ah yes, I-5 gotta love that freeway!! I really love it in Northern San Diego at Torrey Pines where it merges with the 805, what a clusterpuck that is!!
Anyways, welcome. There are a lot of great people on this site and lots of useful information. I do have a question that if I don't ask, others will.............................a 2000 Grey/White?? Please elucidate.

And yes, ANY brake upgrade you do will be better than stock.

 

[Tagoo]

Don't forget that tires are an important part of the braking equation. A set of 12 year old Pilot Sports will lock up pretty easily. As another owner of a 2000 Grey/White (actually Steel Gray/Silver) GTS, I can confirm that Tom's rear brake upgrade works very well. Be sure to get new tires, too.

 

[PilotaX]

IEATVETS, that's exactly where the incident occurred. The 805/5 merge. LOL.

Also, I meant to say "steel grey" and "silver". I think I was suffering from brain fade when I said gray/white.

BTW, the second upgrade in progress is tires.

 

[v10enomous]

I love the stock brakes on my 98... More excitement than a wooden roller coaster

 

[CEJ]

Tagoo brings up an important point about tires. You might want to make tires your first priority, as if they are original tires, your GTS is riding on hockey pucks!

Congrats on acquiring such a cool Viper. Great color combo.

 

[PilotaX]

I love the stock brakes on my 98... More excitement than a wooden roller coaster

LOL. That's for sure!

 

[PilotaX]

Tagoo brings up an important point about tires. You might want to make tires your first priority, as if they are original tires, your GTS is riding on hockey pucks!

Congrats on acquiring such a cool Viper. Great color combo.

Thanks. Ironically the grip at the rear is pretty good for 12 year old tires. Just noticed one minor "hey look out" moment on the way up to Palomar Mountain last weekend. The lateral grip at the front is ok too. I can't say that I've ever experienced a situation where the grip under acceleration and cornering was decent, but the grip when stopping was nonexistent. Usually if you can't stop, you can't go or corner very well either...

Oh well. It's always good to experience new "dynamics", as long as you don't hurt yourself or your car doing it.

Any way, I've ordered a set of R888s in the stock sizes. I think those should do the trick.

P.S. Is there any way to get in touch with Tom other than by PM?

 

[denniskgb]

I would change the original tires just because of the shelf life expectancy. any signs of dry rotting?
however, i went with big brake upgrade 14" rotors and srt10 front calipers all around. getting them done this week. steel brake lines too. have stock 18 wheels so going to have spacers all around to clear the calipers. hope that would do the trick.

 

[plumcrazy]

i drove mine for about 50K miles with stock brakes and never once had a problem or complaint. im not known for driving slow either.

on a track maybe but i never did that.

 

[denniskgb]

i drove mine for about 50K miles with stock brakes and never once had a problem or complaint. im not known for driving slow either.

on a track maybe but i never did that.

Interesting...my buddy has a 2000 gts all stock and he loves his stock brakes. says the same thing that his brakes are great.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

i drove mine for about 50K miles with stock brakes and never once had a problem or complaint. im not known for driving slow either.

on a track maybe but i never did that.

Same here with my 140K mile non-ABS stocker. Sure, they can be improved on but jeeze, they stop the car.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I added SS brake lines, Motul 600, drilled and slotted rotors(I dont track my RT), and EBC yellows for my RT/10 and it made a HUGE difference. Price is probably around the same as Toms.

A "huge" difference? The only difference EBCs would make is if they were replacing bars of soap and that would be a toss up. If you really want to see a huge difference go with PFC.

 

[mattdillon]

Interesting...my buddy has a 2000 gts all stock and he loves his stock brakes. says the same thing that his brakes are great.

This is the same as mine, brakes work fine but it seems like his Biggest problem was the tires! jmo

 

[Fatboy 18]

When I got my 2000 it had stock calipers. the rotors were stock size Baer Eradispeed 2 piece drilled and slotted. within a week of getting the car I had to drive past some parked cars in my neighborhood on a 2, 1/2 car width road, a car came the towards me and I had to brake and try and find a gap between the parked cars to avoid the guy coming the other way. I was doing under 30mph yet the front brakes still locked up to my horror and I NEARLY went into the rear of the parked car! The guy coming the other way thought it was funny, he had some old car and could not have given a dam if he had hit me! Have to say I was shocked how poor the brakes were, or should I say the balance between front and rear.

I upgraded to Tom's 40mm brakes and have not looked back. They make a massive difference to normal driving. Since that upgrade I have also rebuilt both front brake calipers, got the Ipsco stainless lines and adaptors and also fitted a Brake fluid recycle system to keep the fluid moving (which is great for track days). I also now run 660 racing brake fluid, but this requires changing much more regularly than normal fluid as moisture can build up in the fluid and cause corrosion.

One thing on the rotors. Drilled holes are OK for the bling look, but if you drive hard you can get cracking between holes on the rotor, its ok if you have the odd crack between the holes, but if those cracks join up across the disc you need to change them ASAP. To save the hassle I would recommend slotted only 2 piece rotors and hats.

One of the UK members bought some EBC one piece slotted and dimpled rotors, he had one of these rotors crack on him! so I would not recommend those either.

As far as getting hold of Tom, best way is to PM him, I think the old website is down at the moment and he is a busy guy, the brakes are something he does as a sideline to his other work.

Of course if money is no object you can go all out and get a Stoptech big brake kit (14 inch rotors), great for track days.

I drive my car ******* track days, (mainly on the Top Gear track in the UK) I still pump the pedal hard before entering corners, otherwise I would probably flat spot all 4 tires

My advice would be to think about what you want to with the car long term and budget accordingly. But from personal experience the 40mm upgrade is a great addition to the car, its how the car should have left the factory!

Sorry if I rambled on a bit,
Welcome to the VCA and enjoy your new car

Looking forward to seeing some pics.

 

[denniskgb]

When I got my 2000 it had stock calipers. the rotors were stock size Baer Eradispeed 2 piece drilled and slotted. within a week of getting the car I had to drive past some parked cars in my neighborhood on a 2, 1/2 car width road, a car came the towards me and I had to brake and try and find a gap between the parked cars to avoid the guy coming the other way. I was doing under 30mph yet the front brakes still locked up to my horror and I NEARLY went into the rear of the parked car! The guy coming the other way thought it was funny, he had some old car and could not have given a dam if he had hit me! Have to say I was shocked how poor the brakes were, or should I say the balance between front and rear.

I upgraded to Tom's 40mm brakes and have not looked back. They make a massive difference to normal driving. Since that upgrade I have also rebuilt both front brake calipers, got the Ipsco stainless lines and adaptors and also fitted a Brake fluid recycle system to keep the fluid moving (which is great for track days). I also now run 660 racing brake fluid, but this requires changing much more regularly than normal fluid as moisture can build up in the fluid and cause corrosion.

One thing on the rotors. Drilled holes are OK for the bling look, but if you drive hard you can get cracking between holes on the rotor, its ok if you have the odd crack between the holes, but if those cracks join up across the disc you need to change them ASAP. To save the hassle I would recommend slotted only 2 piece rotors and hats.

One of the UK members bought some EBC one piece slotted and dimpled rotors, he had one of these rotors crack on him! so I would not recommend those either.

As far as getting hold of Tom, best way is to PM him, I think the old website is down at the moment and he is a busy guy, the brakes are something he does as a sideline to his other work.

Of course if money is no object you can go all out and get a Stoptech big brake kit (14 inch rotors), great for track days.

I drive my car ******* track days, (mainly on the Top Gear track in the UK) I still pump the pedal hard before entering corners, otherwise I would probably flat spot all 4 tires

My advice would be to think about what you want to with the car long term and budget accordingly. But from personal experience the 40mm upgrade is a great addition to the car, its how the car should have left the factory!

Sorry if I rambled on a bit,
Welcome to the VCA and enjoy your new car

Looking forward to seeing some pics.

Great advice, Cheers!!!

 

[AJ02]

I got a killer deal from a fellow forum member on a Stoptech big brake kit and love it. i don't track the car, but I can tell a huge difference in stopping power on the street.

 

[PilotaX]

Thanks guys. Good advice all around. Here are a few pics. The original owner installed the GT2 wing and a Magnaflow muffler right before the tail pipe exit. I've decided to keep the GT2 wing for now. But I'm going to make some exhaust mods for additional power.

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[Fatboy 18]

Rear wings are great, they make the perfect tray for donuts and coffee at car shows

 

[v10enomous]

The car looks great but it's screaming for different wheels with that wing.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Motor trend tested the Gen 2 braking from 60-0 at 117ft, they tested various SRT10's at under 100 ft,

Naturally if a gen 2 is all you have driven, it will feel good, though in stock form, the front will always lock when you nail the brakes and one really good stop like that and your tires are flat spotted, whump, whump, whump, whump as you drive away (as long as what you were trying to avoid was more than 117 ft away.

I have owned and driven 12 different Vipers, ranging form a 1992, 2 x 1996, 2 x 1997, 2 x 1998, 1 x 2000, 1 x 2003, 1 x comp coupe, and 2 x 2006 and I can definitively say that a gen 3/4 brake system works better , hands down. my 2000 was one of the first cars ever to have a Gen 3 upgrade (October 2004) and it braked better than it did with the Gen 2 brakes, more balance and much shorter stopping distances and no front wheel lock up

 

[denniskgb]

Rear wings are great, they make the perfect tray for donuts and coffee at car shows

And if you have a front tow hook it makes a great cup holder

 

[Fatboy 18]

And if you have a front tow hook it makes a great cup holder

I will have to try that

 

[PilotaX]

And if you have a front tow hook it makes a great cup holder

Hey, that might work better than cramming my coffee cup between my hip and the center console... though my method works pretty darned good.

 

[PilotaX]

Still no word from Tom. Is there another way to reach him besides PM?

TIA,

P.S. Some of you said (1) buy different wheels to go with the wing or (2) to remove the wing and R&R the hatch? Anyone vote for installing the front bumper w/canards from the GT2 model to match the rear wing... I know, I'd probably then have to match the wheels too...

 

[PilotaX]

Here's a good photo of how NOT to perform exhaust mods. Other than the wing, this was the only mod made by the first owner. First photo mainly just shows the Magnaflow. The second photo shows how they used a crap welding job to neck a 3" muffler inlet to a 2.5" pipe... We'll be fixing that error asap.

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Otherwise she's still clean as a trailer queen underneath, despite me rudely exposing her to the SoCal highways and canyon roads.

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[PilotaX]

Sorry, one more question. Instead of 40MM rear calipers, has anyone tried a more aggressive rear pad to alter the bias? Or, simpler yet, has anyone installed a brake bias bar to shift the bias more toward the rear? Maybe a combination of the two, to give better bite at the rear via pads and the ability to fine tune the bias with the bar?

 

[Mad Max]

Sorry, one more question. Instead of 40MM rear calipers, has anyone tried a more aggressive rear pad to alter the bias? Or, simpler yet, has anyone installed a brake bias bar to shift the bias more toward the rear? Maybe a combination of the two, to give better bite at the rear via pads and the ability to fine tune the bias with the bar?

Doesn't a bias bar require 2 separate master cylinders?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Sorry, one more question. Instead of 40MM rear calipers, has anyone tried a more aggressive rear pad to alter the bias? Or, simpler yet, has anyone installed a brake bias bar to shift the bias more toward the rear? Maybe a combination of the two, to give better bite at the rear via pads and the ability to fine tune the bias with the bar?

I've got a unique setup on my GTS. Stoptech fronts and some custom rears from Tom. The bias is very close and can go too much rear with the wrong pad so I do use different pads front and back. But stock brake bias is so heavily one-sided I don't know how much a street car would really notice much from a rear pad swap. Dunno.

 

[Fatboy 18]

I did have Toms email address and had many conversations with him earlier in the year with my brake fluid recycle system. Sadly I lost many of my email addresses when I had a major computer crash and had to install a new Hard drive and start over

I will see if I can find anything on the old hard drive? If so I will send him a link to this thread






................Yea, Just found it, Luckily I printed off some diagram's with the email address

I will send him the link