Is it just me or does activity in the Viper world seem low?

[black mamba1]

Several reasons activity and participation has fallen off. To sum it up....nobody in the hard-core Viper world listens.

1. Underwhelming power and stats for the Gen V. 1/4 mile times are the standard bearer for the definition of a Super Car. Its funny how die hard Viper guys say that stat is not important for a track car...yet many of those same die hard Viper guys have their best 1/4 mile times posted in their signature...I won't name any na--"cough cough -panoff"-es....but just saying. 99% of the sports car world use 1/4 times to judge a sports cars "badass" rating. But for some strange reason...Viper guys do not...including the Viper engineers. Well go ahead and ignore the public and thats how you end up reducing production of the Gen V and then having to come back and reduce the price to sell cars. Viper needs to get their head out of the f*cking ass and start listening to people. The current Gen V runs the 1/4 mile slower than most C6 Zr1's. The Challenger Hellcat has brought more respect to the Dodge brand than the Gen 5 Viper.....that should tell you something. But for die hard Viper guys...that stat is meaningless in the sports car world.

Dumb. Just dumb.

2. Underwhelming Retro-design: Its really difficult to tell a Gen V from a Gen 2 from a distance...and those two models are only about a decade removed. No designer in their right f*cking mind goes back to a design that's only 10 years removed from the new design. That sends several wrong messages...that says to a newcomer to the Viper world...."Geez...they want me to pay $140,000 for a car that looks almost just like a car from 2002 that is selling for $40,000? I aint doing that." It also says the Gen 3 and Gen 4 designs were really a mistake and a deviation of what a Viper should really look like. So...you've alienated many of your Gen 3 and Gen 4 owners and given your new Gen 5 potential buyers the problem of paying 6 figures for a car that looks 20 years old when it passes you by on the road.

Dumb...just dumb.

3. Not enough diversity in the group. I love a nice debate just as much as the next guy, be it politics, cars, women, or sports. But this group is very heavily tilted to the right wing politically and I've read posts about our current President bordering on hatred or possibly even racism, and there are few countervailing views to address or challenge all the animus. I know for a fact that has turned many folks away from the group....they have reached out to me and told me so.

4. The problem of fewer Viper owners is now feeding on itself. Since you have more GTR, Porsche, even Lamborghini owners...and practically a Corvette nation....people are having more fun with larger groups and networking with, partying with, racing with, and simply having a better overall experience in other car clubs. There is more diversity and just more people in general and more stuff to do and you don't have to drive a gazillion miles to do it...and many of these people are former Viper Club of America guys.

And unless and until Viper engineers/designers do something as insane and profound with a Gen 6 or ACR-x Viper as Dodge did with the Challenger and Charger Hellcat....this trend of fewer folks involved, fewer owners you can relate to, and less Viper stuff to do....will continue.

But guess what I have been saying this FOR YEARS. And guess what? No one listens....and thats just

Dumb. Just dumb.

 

[Free2go]

1... there's plenty of power options for the Gen5 now. It's a good time to own a Gen5. And Bob's a nice guy, one of the most interesting people here by far.

******. Major ******.

2...the retro design was nice. The Challenger was a retro design as well. People love the design, except you.

******. Major ******.

3...so what if there is a right wing tilt here. Get lost. I could care less if Maurice and Randall are ***. When they make it known with their posts, with their avatars, and with their pictures they have posted that they want nothing more than the demise of this club, than they are asking to be critiqued. Those two are intolerant *** ****'s. They don't allow ANY kind of opposing view points there. Pack your $hit skippy and go try to post your Gen5 babble over there and see what happens.

******. Major ******.

4...VCA is growing and will once again be the biggest car club in America in a few years. There's all kinds of fun stuff to do in our region if one chooses to participate. People are migrating back to here as they start to understand the true nature of the situation at the other club, and new Viper owners who aren't familiar with the ancient drama naturally gravitate to VCA because of its history and it's voluminous archives.

******. Major ******.

 

[black mamba1]

1. Agreed...but meaningless. People judge a sports car by its stock numbers not by what tuners can do. I raced an Audi S4 that stayed with my heavily modded Viper til 140 mph. But no one is raving about S4's. Either its badass off the showroom floor...or its just another car. Oh and Bob is a great guy and a better friend. Bob is one of the best guys I've ever had the pleasure to chop it up with.

2. The Challenger was a retro design to a car made in the early 70's, not 11 years ago. I actually love everything about the Gen 5 except the stock hp rating. I never said I didn't like the Gen 5 design, I just said it was dumb to make it look just like the Gen 2 from a mass marketing approach. The data supports everything I am saying...and practically nothing you are saying.

3. Nothing surprising here. And thats exactly what folks are doing...getting lost, buying other sports cars, joining more open-minded clubs....while VCA's participation is dwindling. Keep right on doing what you are doing.....right on until there is no one else and no Viper left to do it with. This is not our problem....its yours.

4. I hope you are right. But if Viper folks keep your mindset and don't start listening to guys like me then my predictions for the Viper will continue. And those predictions about slow sales and reducing interest have been spot on for years bro.

The data is on my side. Emotion is on your side. And if you continue to ignore the data.....well.....thats just dumb....just dumb.

 

[Bobpantax]

I do not think that the Gen V was dumb at all. It also is not $140K. The 2015 SRT starts at an MSRP of $84,995. While there are some design cues from the Gen II, only a person with somewhat impaired vision and a lack of art appreciation would miss the enormous differences and the far superior design of the Gen V on every level both with respect to the exterior and the interior. The paint system on all prior generation Vipers was a joke and we all knew it. The Gen V has a much enhanced paint system and far better panel fit. And adjusted for inflation the Gen V is less money than the Gen II,III and IV. The new 2016 Viper ACR with the extreme aero package will blow the doors off the Gen IV ACR on a road course. There are rumors that it already ran a 7.01 time at the Ring.

The head of Dodge has publicly stated that the Hellcats are for drag racers and the Viper is for sports car enthusiasts and road racers.

Bottom line. Ralph got it right. The problem was the initial pricing and marketing was not well conceived and executed. Ralph is now one of the top five people in FCA. He has done 1000 times more for the Viper than you. I suggest that you respect his efforts and get off the high horse you road in on.

You can now get a stage I or Stage II (It says later in 2015 but I think it may be available sooner than that) reliable package developed by Viper Xchange and Arrow Racing and by 2016 they will be making a Stage III supercharger package available. Go here to see the packages: http://www.viperexchange.com/viperexchange-exclusive-performance-products-for-gen-v-vipers-3

Bottom line. As usual, your facts are wrong.

 

[Free2go]

1...Stock anything ***** to me. The ability to modify is all that matters and solutions are materializing. Dodge is listening. I'm happy to see you back pedaling where it concerns Bob.

2...The Gen2 is pretty much what started it all. The Gen3 and 4's kinda look like Corvettes to the untrained eye and Dodge went back to a more popular and timeless style with a modern touch.

3...Lack of interest is a cultural thing. The cheese moves around. When I was younger, I'd cruise the strip and damn near everybody had a car they were hot rodding around in. It was fun. Men were men. We beat the $hit out of each other in the parking lots and cops were never called and law suits were never filed. I cruise those same streets now and there's nothing but jag offs texting. The *** thing has exploded as well and has cast an effeminate shadow over the Viper world.

4...The folks at Dodge will rework the Viper, but capturing the attention of a generation of kids who have pissed their imaginations away playing video games is gonna be a tough task.

 

[Free2go]

.....................

 

[Viper Specialty]

And the above few posts... are exactly what BM1 was alluding to. "How dare you criticize what we are doing, we did it all RIGHT!"

Oh yeah? Then why isn't it WORKING?

The answers are obvious to anyone who can pull their head out of Dodges ass long enough to take a breath. The current Viper has all the right stats ...in all the wrong places... for the public to notice.

And yes, going retro on a TEN YEAR OLD CAR was not the smartest move. They should have pushed the design forward, not backwards. All they did was appease a group of whiners in the Viper nation who wanted a new version of their current car, but who couldn't afford it anyway in many cases [obviously not a blanket statement, and no insult intended]. Now, what happens when you go out of your way to market towards the group of owners who also own the cheaper of the current crop of cars, and then you raise your pricing through the roof? To add insult, you simultaneously ignore that the Horsepower numbers sell cars, botch the launch, barely advertise, and then release a cheaper car with more power at half the price? YOU DON'T SELL MANY, and it shouldn't take someone with a marketing degree to figure out why.

Case in point.

 

[Jason Heffner]

Hi Jason, Good to see you on the forums. You've done some great work for me! The Central/North Florida Viper Club of America is very active! In Feb., 2015
we had a great showing of Vipers in downtown Sarasota at the car show, in December we had such a large response for a presentation /luncheon with Dick
Winkles from SRT Engineering that we had to move to a larger venue that could accomodate the crowd at St Armands. Last summer we had a dyno day at a
members race shop in Bradenton. We would love to do an event at your shop sometime. We have events almost monthly at various places around the state and sometimes combine them with the South Florida VCA. Hope you're doing well !

Thank you. I am doing well and I hope that you are also. I am excited to hear that there is this much activity in the area. I would love to host an event at our shop sometime. It would be nice to be able to put some track events together like we used to.

 

[Jason Heffner]

Thanks for sharing your results. The times are off compared to what we would get here at sea level but your elevation is crazy which will drastically reduce power output. Despite the fact that drag racing looks so simple, it's just driving wide open in s straight line, right?, it actually takes a lot of practice and skill to get it right.

 

[NMviperguy]

And the above few posts... are exactly what BM1 was alluding to. "How dare you criticize what we are doing, we did it all RIGHT!"

Oh yeah? Then why isn't it WORKING?

The answers are obvious to anyone who can pull their head out of Dodges ass long enough to take a breath. The current Viper has all the right stats ...in all the wrong places... for the public to notice.

And yes, going retro on a TEN YEAR OLD CAR was not the smartest move. They should have pushed the design forward, not backwards. All they did was appease a group of whiners in the Viper nation who wanted a new version of their current car, but who couldn't afford it anyway in many cases [obviously not a blanket statement, and no insult intended]. Now, what happens when you go out of your way to market towards the group of owners who also own the cheaper of the current crop of cars, and then you raise your pricing through the roof? To add insult, you simultaneously ignore that the Horsepower numbers sell cars, botch the launch, barely advertise, and then release a cheaper car with more power at half the price? YOU DON'T SELL MANY, and it shouldn't take someone with a marketing degree to figure out why.

Case in point.

I am new to the viper nation, but did my research before joining. There is a fallout with interest in this car. Period. I love my car, and will probably buy another in the future if I ever got the chance. But times have changed, and this crazy horsepower game has exploded. Dodge has to listen. Being stuck in the excuse game doesn't do anything to sell a car. I personally think the gen V is a **** beast. But when you have a corvette with a v8 pushing out more horsepower something's gotta change. Playing catch up isn't the way to stay ahead of sales. They pulled the plug on the viper once. Nothing is stopping them from doing it again. I am a big fan of the new hellcats, they are awesome, but having a lower brand with higher horsepower then your flagship makes no sense to me... I understand the viper is still faster... But HP sells in this game. I am one of those kids that was lost in video games growing up, and since it seems like you feel this this would hurt viper sales you obviously come from a much older generation that has no idea. I actually would always choose the viper in my video games. At the end of the day dodge has to do something drastic to boost sales or stay a nitch, and watch sales fall. Mid engine, awd, hybrid, monster HP... Those are the only options to to stay hot... If all the others are blasphemy, then crank out that 800-1000 HP and watch the numbers grow...oh and I am a fan of hotrodding as well. Always have been. But majority of people that buy these cars new probably won't modify them much so expect the most of what they can get when they buy the car off the lot.

 

[GRANGER73]

The

Several reasons activity and participation has fallen off. To sum it up....nobody in the hard-core Viper world listens.
3. Not enough diversity in the group. I love a nice debate just as much as the next guy, be it politics, cars, women, or sports. But this group is very heavily tilted to the right wing politically and I've read posts about our current President bordering on hatred or possibly even racism, and there are few countervailing views to address or challenge all the animus. I know for a fact that has turned many folks away from the group....they have reached out to me and told me so.

Did you ever consider that derogatory remarks about your current president might have a whole lot more to do with his total incompetence rather than his African heritage? I don't believe it's about hate; I believe it's more about what's to love? It shouldn't be to tough to figure out why there are "...few countervailing views..." regarding POTUS. Give it some thought. Finally if you want to play the race card, hop in the car with Al Sharpton...the president's go to man when it comes to racial issues. How's that workin' for ya?

 

[CWhiteRun]

The

Did you ever consider that derogatory remarks about your current president might have a whole lot more to do with his total incompetence rather than his African heritage? I don't believe it's about hate; I believe it's more about what's to love? It shouldn't be to tough to figure out why there are "...few countervailing views..." regarding POTUS. Give it some thought. Finally if you want to play the race card, hop in the car with Al Sharpton...the president's go to man when it comes to racial issues. How's that workin' for ya?

Black Mamba doesn't see good or bad in action, but only supports that which is the same color as him. by even bringing up race, he shows himself to be somewhat racist. He can't even see that this first "black" president has done more damage to the black race in regards to jobs and education then any other in history.

 

[ViperJeff]

Thankfully, I didn't have to get White House approval for my last vehicle purchase. I'm sure it would have been veto'd.

I think dodge has forgotten the importance of win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Nothing like showing speed junkies hours of great performance for hours on end. May not work for everyone, but is is one of the missing pieces

 

[Free2go]

Here in North Texas, low Viper activity could be attributed to this....


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=stzBwcWPolE

 

[Free2go]

Oh, and the current president is every bit as much of an incompetent corporate controlled ******** as Bush ever was. Maybe even less so.

 

[NMviperguy]

Oh, and the current president is every bit as much of an incompetent corporate controlled ******** as Bush ever was. Maybe even less so.

+1. ^^^^^^^^

 

[black mamba1]

I do not think that the Gen V was dumb at all. It also is not $140K. The 2015 SRT starts at an MSRP of $84,995. While there are some design cues from the Gen II, only a person with somewhat impaired vision and a lack of art appreciation would miss the enormous differences and the far superior design of the Gen V on every level both with respect to the exterior and the interior. The paint system on all prior generation Vipers was a joke and we all knew it. The Gen V has a much enhanced paint system and far better panel fit. And adjusted for inflation the Gen V is less money than the Gen II,III and IV. The new 2016 Viper ACR with the extreme aero package will blow the doors off the Gen IV ACR on a road course. There are rumors that it already ran a 7.01 time at the Ring.

The head of Dodge has publicly stated that the Hellcats are for drag racers and the Viper is for sports car enthusiasts and road racers.

Bottom line. Ralph got it right. The problem was the initial pricing and marketing was not well conceived and executed. Ralph is now one of the top five people in FCA. He has done 1000 times more for the Viper than you. I suggest that you respect his efforts and get off the high horse you road in on.

You can now get a stage I or Stage II (It says later in 2015 but I think it may be available sooner than that) reliable package developed by Viper Xchange and Arrow Racing and by 2016 they will be making a Stage III supercharger package available. Go here to see the packages: http://www.viperexchange.com/viperexchange-exclusive-performance-products-for-gen-v-vipers-3

Bottom line. As usual, your facts are wrong.

Bob, I have facts and data. You have opinions, links, and articles, but no facts. And at the risk of being Dragnet.....just the facts ma'am....and the facts are:

1. Dodge closed the Conner plant for weeks to reduce Viper production.
2. Dodge dropped the Gen 5 Viper price by $15,000.
3. The Gen 5 Viper is mediocre at best in the 1/4 mile race....a stat you felt was important to use in your signature.
4. Viper sales are down.
5. Viper interest is down.
6. Viper participation is down.
7. Fear of the Viper is down.

Bob, you and others like you can argue until you are blue in the face....but the only folks you are convincing are folks like you. You live in an alternate universe that only other die hard Viper owners live in and that the mass sports car world is rejecting.

You are a great attorney and a great debater....but sooner or later you have to acknowledge facts and data.

The facts and data support me....not you bro. Viper is headed for AC Cobra and Aston Martin territory bro...territory where they are only super cars in their own view.

007 is a billion dollar franchise.....but still cannot resurrect the underwhelming Aston Martin brand. The AC Cobra is the rawest, boldest, most in-your-face sports car....but quite honestly is viewed as clownish or comical at car shows. Nobody takes that car seriously and quite honestly we all feel sorry for their owners who still think they are relevant in the sports car world.

Bob, I'm right and you are wrong. I know you are not used to hearing that but that is the case today with the current Viper. Just look at the data.

And quite frankly..... thats the bottom line.

 

[Free2go]

As a die hard Star Trek fan..but as also an engineer by degree and a lover of physics...the concept of subspace was always very difficult for me to understand and/or grasp as a Trekkie...until today. I went to Wikipedia to look up subspace after hearing the term used again in Star Gate Atlantis....and realized that subspace is a fictional part of normal space that can only be access via wormholes or warp drive...or by reaching certain energy levels. And this subspace allows for things we wish were true but that are not actually true in our current universe....to be true. Like traveling and communicating via faster than the speed of light. Subspace may be fact one day. But currently its simply a figment of our imagination...and does not exist.

Bobs understanding of the current Viper exists only in subspace. Die hard Viper guys understanding of the current Viper situation exists only in subspace.

In real space....the Gen V Viper will get its ass kicked in a drag race by most sports cars in its price range. In real space Viper interest is down, Viper ownership is down....the fear of the Viper is down...respect for the Viper is down, Viper sales, Viper production, Viper participation, is down...down....down.

And those are the facts in real space....and in reality.

But for those who wish to ignore reality....go right ahead...because obviously facts as we understand them....as accepted by the rest of the world...are irrelevant to you. In subspace shutting down your production facility for weeks and cutting the price of your car by $15,000 to boost sales and a sharp decrease in Viper ownership and interest are all indications of success...not of failure.

Humph.....funny how that works in your world. But bring your world to the stop light on a Friday night when a GT-R pulls up next to you.......and you will be soon be introduced to....

the real world.

So basically what you're saying is we are all living in the holodeck and you're captaining the ship whilst getting blown by an exotic alien life form. Dude, you've said nothing, but you have told me everything I need to know about you.

 

[Bobpantax]

In real space, the Gen V Viper was not designed and engineered by Ralph and the SRT Team to be a drag race vehicle. It was designed and engineered as a road racer. That is a fact. If you want a drag car, buy a Hellcat or one of the many other high HP cars designed and engineered for that purpose. But, with that said, Tony a/k/a Nineball and a few others have proven that a person with skill and the ability to power shift can seriously whoop many other of today's vehicles specifically engineered for drag racing.

Viper sales have now stabilized. Dealers are not ordering cars to sit on their lots. The one of one program allows the customer the opportunity to create his or her own vehicle. The 2016 ACR has generated a great deal of interest.

By the Spring of 2016, you will see Gen V Vipers running around with a Viper Xchange/Arrow Stage III supercharged application. The car will put out north of 800 HP at the flywheel.

Bottom line. Some have the coin. Some don't. Some have the need to drive a car with a stick. Some don't. Some street race and think that's a big deal. It isn't. Any fool can do it and endanger his or her own life and the lives of others and, on occasion, wreck his or her car.

What impresses me is consistency. When I watch NHRA drag racing events and see the drivers time after time driving, yes driving, a car in an intensely competitive environment with thousands watching live and millions watching on TV and the net, they are the real deal. Why? Because, in general, the races are among people of equal or close to equal skill sets and when it is on video BS does not work.

 

[Free2go]

Somebody once told me that Randall's favorite model of the Viper is the Black Mamba edition. Anyway, carry on.

 

[CWhiteRun]

By the Spring of 2016, you will see Gen V Vipers running around with a Viper Xchange/Arrow Stage III supercharged application. The car will put out north of 800 HP at the flywheel.

So, in less than a year, this package will be on a plethora of Gen V Vipers? I want what you're smokin............

 

[black mamba1]

So basically what you're saying is we are all living in the holodeck and you're captaining the ship whilst getting blown by an exotic alien life form. Dude, you've said nothing, but you have told me everything I need to know about you.

lol

par for the course for the simpletons that just don't get it. and since that's all you think you need to know about me to form all you need to know about me actually says a hell of a lot more about you than it does about me or anyone else.

lol

I will leave it at that.

 

[Bobpantax]

Reading really helps. You said plethora not me. Most will not have the coin to buy the package. But I think we will see 50 to 100 packages sold over time. The Arrow Racing/Viper XChange package is as close to OEM as you are going to get without it being OEM. Those who know Arrow's history know what I am referring to.

So, in less than a year, this package will be on a plethora of Gen V Vipers? I want what you're smokin............

 

[black mamba1]

In real space, the Gen V Viper was not designed and engineered by Ralph and the SRT Team to be a drag race vehicle. It was designed and engineered as a road racer. That is a fact. If you want a drag car, buy a Hellcat or one of the many other high HP cars designed and engineered for that purpose. But, with that said, Tony a/k/a Nineball and a few others have proven that a person with skill and the ability to power shift can seriously whoop many other of today's vehicles specifically engineered for drag racing.

Viper sales have now stabilized. Dealers are not ordering cars to sit on their lots. The one of one program allows the customer the opportunity to create his or her own vehicle. The 2016 ACR has generated a great deal of interest.

By the Spring of 2016, you will see Gen V Vipers running around with a Viper Xchange/Arrow Stage III supercharged application. The car will put out north of 800 HP at the flywheel.

Bottom line. Some have the coin. Some don't. Some have the need to drive a car with a stick. Some don't. Some street race and think that's a big deal. It isn't. Any fool can do it and endanger his or her own life and the lives of others and, on occasion, wreck his or her car.

What impresses me is consistency. When I watch NHRA drag racing events and see the drivers time after time driving, yes driving, a car in an intensely competitive environment with thousands watching live and millions watching on TV and the net, they are the real deal. Why? Because, in general, the races are among people of equal or close to equal skill sets and when it is on video BS does not work.

Hey...

yadda yadda....yadda yadda yadda.....and guess what? YADDA YADDA! AND MORE YADDA YADDA YADDA!

You didn't address a single f*cking fact Bob. Not a single f*cking relevant fact. All you are doing is making you and yours feel good. Bottom line?

sales ****
interest *****
participation *****
and on and on and on...but I am tired of repeating myself.

Believe whatever the f*ck you wanna believe....while you get your ass kicked by an automatic C7 Z06 convertible with a blonde with big **** behind the steering wheel. Go on and run your mouth about who has the coin and who doesn't. Who is consistent and who isn't.

None of your blabbing and ******* legalese will explain this blonde kicking your ass in her automatic Z06 on a Friday night. You have your arguments to go home with...

she has your nutts.

And that my friend...is the bottom line.

 

[Bobpantax]

I can tell by your word usage that your boss is asleep already in the other room and the ice cubes have melted a bit. Otherwise you would not be talking about a blond and be obsessed with her kicking your ass although maybe you like that - to each his own. I do not race on the street. I think you need to put up the bread and buy a Gen V already. You know you want a stick and you know you would look ridiculous in a Vette. Just do it.

 

[ViperJeff]

Keep it up and I'll clean it up. ditch the poor vocabulary please

 

[black mamba1]

I can tell by your word usage that your boss is asleep already in the other room and the ice cubes have melted a bit. Otherwise you would not be talking about a blond and be obsessed with her kicking your ass although maybe you like that - to each his own. I do not race on the street. I think you need to put up the bread and buy a Gen V already. You know you want a stick and you know you would look ridiculous in a Vette. Just do it.

Damnit thats why I hate you...you know me too well.

 

[black mamba1]

Keep it up and I'll clean it up. ditch the poor vocabulary please

Last time I checked Viper guys had hair on their chests and were serious supporters of American Sniper. When did we become language ***....ooops i mean police?

The Viper is American car owners and car guys at their meanest and most serious. We party hard, we ride hard, we race hard, we fight hard, we take our freedoms hard....and we express ourselves hard.....whats up with this rated G family bullsh*t?

If this is what Viper has resorted to gladly ban me.

 

[Bobpantax]

Don't ban Keith. Just delete the Fbombs. Keith is a fun part of the club. We had a lot of fun debating during the 2008 and 2012 elections. He'll eventually break down and buy the Viper. And, it will get supercharged.

 

[ViperJeff]

Last time I checked Viper guys had hair on their chests and were serious supporters of American Sniper. When did we become language ***....ooops i mean police?

The Viper is American car owners and car guys at their meanest and most serious. We party hard, we ride hard, we race hard, we fight hard, we take our freedoms hard....and we express ourselves hard.....whats up with this rated G family bullsh*t?

If this is what Viper has resorted to gladly ban me.

From the posting policies

1. All posts must conform to a standard that is acceptable in content to Prime Time Broadcast Network TV (TVPG http://www.tvguidelines.org/ratings.asp). ******, *********** or profanity (this includes "unique" spelling of profane words) will not be tolerated. Posts not maintaining this standard will be subject to deletion.

And why in heavens name would I want to ban you. My skin isn't that thin and there are a variety of options before banning would even be considered.

Bob I realize you like Keith and personally, I know I have no issue with Keith or a reason to be. However, I know you know that threads that contain these kinds of comments are reported on a regular basis. We can't have it both ways based on the poster, can we

Jeff