Is It Just Me Or What?

Brad Manhattan Beach

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You tell me... (no flames please).

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snowmann

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Geezzz and those two cars aren't even the same color. What's even sadder is it look worse in person.
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-Sorry to be a whiner...
 

Craig 201 MPH

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While they do look similar enough to be brothers, I've always liked the design of the S2000, and I like the SRT even better.

I do concur, it will be hella fast. performance #'s are fact where opinions on looks are just that. Though I love reading the bantering that goes on.
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Craig
 

Mike Brunton

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The only place where I see similarity is in the rear 1/4 shot...

But to be honest, if you saw an SRT in person next to an S2000, you would not see any similarity, I don't think. I really think that the pictures hide all the curves the SRT has and make it look much more bland than it is - like an S2000.

Did you see the car in the flesh, Brad? If so, did you think it looked like the S2000? I know the SRT was in LA, not sure if you had a chance to go see it however.
 
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Brad Manhattan Beach

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:
The only place where I see similarity is in the rear 1/4 shot...

But to be honest, if you saw an SRT in person next to an S2000, you would not see any similarity, I don't think. I really think that the pictures hide all the curves the SRT has and make it look much more bland than it is - like an S2000.

Did you see the car in the flesh, Brad? If so, did you think it looked like the S2000? I know the SRT was in LA, not sure if you had a chance to go see it however.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike:

I took these pictures at the LA Auto Show in January. I thought that it would be interesting to take parallel pictures of these two cars (unfortunately there was just too much glare on the SRT to do it justice).

I will say up front that I personally prefer the lines and the look of the Coupe over the Convertible. I do understand DC's thinking in releasing the Convertible first, since it would be completely overshadowed by the Coupe when released. I don't hate the Covertible, but it doesn't have enough visual impact on me to make me want to sell my '96 GTS.

At first glance (from a distance) these two cars have very similar stylings. The shape of the headlights is uncanny, The shape of the flares (and how they integrate with the fascia is very simmilar. Even the center **** on the rear trunks are styled in the same ways.

What it comes down to is that if you saw these cars separately, you would say that they were designed by people who came from the same school of thought. The first thing I will say that is dramatically different in the scale of these two cars. The S2000 is a mini-me version of the SRT.

The things that differentiate the SRT are the etched lines (that to me define the muscularity of the car) are very different. The hood is the first thing that comes to mine. On the SRT there are very beutifully integrated scoop and exhaust vents (that I wish that I had on my GTS), that do not exist on the bland S2000.

The side vents on the SRT are also something very different on the two cars. What you don't see as obviously on the SRT is the width difference between these two cars. In this area, there is no comparison, the SRT wins hands down.

DC made a huge mistake in their display colors (which do not bring out the details and lines of the SRT) and terrible lighting when showing the SRT at the LA show. They also made a mistake by putting it on almost the identical platform that the S2000 was on across the room. Fire the events and marketing people for that one.

I believe that the market that DC designed the SRT-10 Convertible is not the same one that was targeted with the original RT and the GTS (hence the disappointment from many of the rank and file diehard Viper fans).

The SRT is an evolution on the Gen 2 Vipers. With that evolution comes improvements that we don't see such as (that were also born in the Oreca racecars):
- Lengthened A-arms for better handling and stability.
- The engine which was lowered in the compartment (to lower the center of gravity) to improve handling.
- Lower coefficient of drag to improve high speed performance.
- Aerodynamic underpan to improve high speed stability.
- Stiffer chassis making the foundation more stable.
- A well ventilated hood to reduce the amount of pressure build up at high speeds.

I really believe that the design folks at DC were truly listening to our input about performance and handling, and they delivered it in the SRT. Unfortunately for some of us, the packaging was a little more understated and conventional than we were used to in the first two generations.

I think that the SRT-10 will be raising the performance bar to new heights, and the Coupe (when it is released in '05) will slam the door on the competition. The only thing that was compromised on the new cars was visual impact.

That's my take on it Mike. Sorry for beinglong winded.

No flames please...

Brad
 

Daffy

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I had heard the SRT looks like the S2000 (which I actually like), so I really spent time at the autoshow to compare them. As hard as I looked, in person, I couldn't get the similarity. I felt it was a really weak comparison, but what do I know. In pics, anything goes, you could compare an MR2 to a Ferrari in pics, so eh, whatever. I liked the SRT, a lot, what I don't know is if I like it more than my RT/10, which I'm crazy about. But, I'm also one of those performance types - where the numbers do make up for a lot. Right now I'm in the undecided category, but more because I love my RT so much, than likeing the SRT so little.

I also agree that the display I saw was bad, it was difficult to get a good look at the car, I really hate it when they put a car up on something, you can't the right perspective.

Dave.
 

Viperfreak2

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It's good to hear the coupe will be out in '05. That seems to be the launch target date for the C6 Corvette....hmmmm, does Dodge have a master plan (Germans always think WAY down the road, 250kph on the autobahn for 4 hours will do that to you, as I learned a few months ago) to introduce the coupe to steal the C6's thunder? Sound like a GREAT plan to me. By the way, add stripes to your 'bland' SRT-10's and look what happens.....no S2000 anymore.

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I'd hate to see this group split into VCA and SRT clubs, get a long.
 

Bwright

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The S2000 and the SRT/10 simply do not look much alike.

From the front:

1. Cross hair grill is typical Dodge and Viper. Not seen on S2000.

2. Ducting on hood is distinctly Viper. Not seen on S2000.

3. Hood vents. Clearly Viper and not seen on S2000.

4. Vipers fill your rear view with both size and driving lights augmented by giant trademark fog lights. You don't see those distinctive fog lights on an S2000.

5. In the same vein, the shape of the front turn signals (Round in the S2000 and vertical in the SRT/10) are not the same.

Side:

1. The most telling difference is the return to side-pipes which is not only distinctly Viper, and not S2000, but also makes it truer to both the original Viper show car and the Cobras which gave rise to it. The use of side pipes makes the SRT/10 look more Viper than Vipers without it given how the Viper show car first appeared.

2. The wheel design is clearly not S2000. Their sheer size makes the S2000 look like a toy.

3. The enormous side scallop/scoop is not even present on an S2000.

4. The S2000 has a turn signal lamp featured prominently on its front fender. The Viper does not.

5. The gas tank openings are on different sides.

Back:

1. The license plate frames are in opposite locations.

2. The Viper sports a rear diffuser, the S2000 does not.

3. The Viper uses sidepipes so its rear looks unconventional compared to the S2000 with its prominent tailpipes.

4. The Viper's evolution of the banded horizontal rear lights looks nothing like the dual circular lamps under plastic on the S2000. Even the shape of their respective lamp covers is different.

In addition to the above, the overall size of the Viper in all dimensions relative to the S2000 makes any comparison between the cars a real stretch. The only desperate reach one could make to link the two cars stylistically is to say that the roll hoops are similar. But then similar roll hoops are on the 360 Spyder and Porsche Boxster.

I think once the SRT/10 gets stripes and the GTS coupe, I hope, debuts in a few years as it did after the original RT/10 then the Viper DNA will be even clearer. I have yet to hear anyone say the Competition Coupe does not look like a Viper but stylistically the Coupe and the SRT/10 differ only in their roof design.

One thing is for sure, from a performance standpoint there will be absolutely no question which is the Viper.
 

Steve Ferguson

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Jon, I never knew you to back down, and hell it would be fun. Besides, I thought you were already going gratis? Just trying to make this event even more spicy!
 

Steve Ferguson

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Jon that was one of the questions and it was answered that night. I thought it was on that post from the person who attended the dinner. I will try and get that for you today.
 

Venom Lover

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Jon's comments got me to thinking. Off hand, I would've said that styling was one of the things that motivated me to buy a Viper. However, as I think back on it, the real thing that drove me to buy a Viper was performance. It actually took me a while of looking at Vipers to believe that I liked how they look. However, that was because I was looking mostly at RT/10s initially. Once I saw a blue/white GTS, I fell in love.

Anyway, so maybe there's hope after all that the SRT will grow on me. Or maybe I'm just not a ragtop guy and will have to wait for the SGTS. And if the SGTS never exists, there's always the GT-40!

--Mike Pavloff
 

King GTS

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brad Manhattan Beach:
Mike:

I took these pictures at the LA Auto Show in January. I thought that it would be interesting to take parallel pictures of these two cars (unfortunately there was just too much glare on the SRT to do it justice).

I will say up front that I personally prefer the lines and the look of the Coupe over the Convertible. I do understand DC's thinking in releasing the Convertible first, since it would be completely overshadowed by the Coupe when released. I don't hate the Covertible, but it doesn't have enough visual impact on me to make me want to sell my '96 GTS.

At first glance (from a distance) these two cars have very similar stylings. The shape of the headlights is uncanny, The shape of the flares (and how they integrate with the fascia is very simmilar. Even the center **** on the rear trunks are styled in the same ways.

What it comes down to is that if you saw these cars separately, you would say that they were designed by people who came from the same school of thought. The first thing I will say that is dramatically different in the scale of these two cars. The S2000 is a mini-me version of the SRT.

The things that differentiate the SRT are the etched lines (that to me define the muscularity of the car) are very different. The hood is the first thing that comes to mine. On the SRT there are very beutifully integrated scoop and exhaust vents (that I wish that I had on my GTS), that do not exist on the bland S2000.

The side vents on the SRT are also something very different on the two cars. What you don't see as obviously on the SRT is the width difference between these two cars. In this area, there is no comparison, the SRT wins hands down.

DC made a huge mistake in their display colors (which do not bring out the details and lines of the SRT) and terrible lighting when showing the SRT at the LA show. They also made a mistake by putting it on almost the identical platform that the S2000 was on across the room. Fire the events and marketing people for that one.

I believe that the market that DC designed the SRT-10 Convertible is not the same one that was targeted with the original RT and the GTS (hence the disappointment from many of the rank and file diehard Viper fans).

The SRT is an evolution on the Gen 2 Vipers. With that evolution comes improvements that we don't see such as (that were also born in the Oreca racecars):
- Lengthened A-arms for better handling and stability.
- The engine which was lowered in the compartment (to lower the center of gravity) to improve handling.
- Lower coefficient of drag to improve high speed performance.
- Aerodynamic underpan to improve high speed stability.
- Stiffer chassis making the foundation more stable.
- A well ventilated hood to reduce the amount of pressure build up at high speeds.

I really believe that the design folks at DC were truly listening to our input about performance and handling, and they delivered it in the SRT. Unfortunately for some of us, the packaging was a little more understated and conventional than we were used to in the first two generations.

I think that the SRT-10 will be raising the performance bar to new heights, and the Coupe (when it is released in '05) will slam the door on the competition. The only thing that was compromised on the new cars was visual impact.

That's my take on it Mike. Sorry for beinglong winded.

No flames please...

Brad


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Brad,


I happen to agree with you 100% regarding the two aforementioned cars. What I can't believe is that after you even posted the pictures that you did, some still couldn't stomach the truth.


You said that the coupe was going to be released in 05.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I think that the SRT-10 will be raising the performance bar to new heights, and the Coupe (when it is released in '05) will slam the door on the competition.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



This just happens to be the best news that I've heard! I was planning on selling my Viper & getting a Ferrari 360 if they left the SRT as it is. Are you sure about the Coupe?
 

SmokinV10

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1) Why would I want a car that is "sensitive to viewing angle"?
2) Why should a car be fast, or good looking. Shouldnt it be BOTH?
3) Attention (although sometimes annoying) is a tribute to GOOD STYLING. People dont look at ugly things. There is a reason you dont turn your head for a double take when Rosanne Bar walks by, but you would if one of MarkO's postings did!
4) It doenst like just like an S2000. It looks like a STRATUS!!!!
bounce.gif
 

King GTS

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Brad,

Thanks for the link. I'd never seen that site before but I will definitely keep my eyes on it now. Everythings starting to make a little more semse to me now. Please keep us Posted if you hear something we don't.
 

Steve Ferguson

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Jon, thanks for the remark, but please allow me add to my comment.

"At this Time Dodge has no plans to build a GTS or Coupe version of the SRT/10 Viper". Translation, ain't no way of knowing because PVO is concentrating on the immediate future (budget, srt4 and srt-Ram). Once these issues are out of the way, and PVO hits the projected profitability within it's targeted two year time frame, the possibility of a Coupe version could then be considered. So if you want a Coupe you had better start praying that the the SRT models produce the numbers needed. At this point the only thing there is is speculation. BTW, these are the same comments you all heard a few years back on the Charger. Anyone want to bet me that there is an announcement in the next 18 month's and it says, "it's a go"?
 
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Brad Manhattan Beach

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Steve:

Thanks for the "official" feedback on the Coupe (which basically means there is nothing official on it). Tell me this, if DC is so focused on profitablity of making the SRT-10 (sounds an awful lot like they are falling into the Corvette trap of newtering a car to make it more appealing to all genders), then why didn't they come out with the Coupe version first? It is obvious to everyone in the Viper world that the GTS's clearly out sell the RT's.

Does DC believe that they will be able to gather enough of the cross-over marketplace (that would normally by Porsche Cabriolets, Jaguars, and I hate to say it... but Mercedes's SL's) to toss the previous financial model out of the window?

Since when does a corporation's marquee car have to be produced profitably? From what I have heard about the Viper is that Dodge never made a profit on the car (nor did they intend to). What the Viper did for Chrysler was give the company brand identity. That branding sold thousands Neons, Intrepids, minivans (and so on) because they all had design characteristics from the Viper. Whether is was the shape of the headlights, tailights, the dashboard layout or a cross-hair grill (or stripes) they all had something in common with the Viper. The reality is, that what the Viper did was put Chrysler back on the map and made everyone forget about the Aries K-car history.

The bean counters at DC need to release the reins or they'll turn the company into another GM (a company known more for designing "angry appliances" like the Aztek and the Avalanche). At least GM had the sense to see their limitations, and went out to hire Bob Lutz to resurrect their company. From what I can see, this company is going in the wrong direction. Of course, this is JMO. No flames please.

Thanks for your feedback.

Brad
 

Steve Ferguson

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Brad, PVO is based, and going to be based on performance vehicles from the entire product line. This is not a Viper only issue. That being said, if you had a product that satisfied 15,000 people, and it was time to release a new one, would you:

a- make something that targets the 15,000?
b- make something that targets 500,000?
c- make something that targets BOTH?

Now add to that equation that the Viper is only a small but key element. Now you offer it in a very new combination, which should attract some of the current, and make it more desirable to those who have yet been able to rationalize owning one?

And my statement was not "official" as you put, but rather an explanation on what has traditionally transpired over the years. I am out-of-here. This site has literally gotten me sick! Sorry Mike, but I can't justify helping this crowd, you are on your own.
 

Mike Brunton

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Steve,

I hope you're kidding about leaving
smile.gif
You have been a GREAT source of information and we'd be in the dark about alot of things if you stopped visiting. Do you think PVO is going to announce the Charger? Oh, boy... if they do, I will be beating down their door and begging them to take my check. They would have to keep it looking EXACTLY like the showcar though - no changes - not even to the interior!

Brad,

I think the reasoning behind the convertible is that they don't see the SRT as being the "new" roadster - they see it as a totally new model. I never particularly liked the RT/10 because I prefer coupes, and if I was getting a convertible, I'd want it to be a full-blown convertible, not a targa (which, like it or not, is what the RT/10 really is). It's alot easier to make a convertible that satisfies coupe buyers through a bolt-on hardtop, whereas convertible guys will never want a coupe.

As for the whole money side of things - well I've talked about that before but honestly I guess it's a corporate decision by DC and only they know the details. I see what you're saying about "neutering" the car but I guess I see it differently... if they had added some sort of traction control/active handling, a power top, cupholders, electronic dash, and power seats, then I'd agree - but I think the Viper is still pretty true to it's mark.

Of course, that's just my view - I know others totally disagree and that's ok too
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Brad Manhattan Beach

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Brunton:

As for the whole money side of things - well I've talked about that before but honestly I guess it's a corporate decision by DC and only they know the details. I see what you're saying about "neutering" the car but I guess I see it differently... if they had added some sort of traction control/active handling, a power top, cupholders, electronic dash, and power seats, then I'd agree - but I think the Viper is still pretty true to it's mark.

Of course, that's just my view - I know others totally disagree and that's ok too
smile.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike:

I agree with your assessment on the SRT-10 (RT versus Convertible). My comments were based on the evolution of a car, once the manufacturer decides that they need to produce "profit" by making it more appealing to a broader marketplace. Once this decision occurs, they end up compromising the car in all areas (nothing against the C5, but it has compromise written all over it... Z06 not withstanding).

I fear that this is the direction that the corporate guys are going to take the Viper beyond the SRT-10.
I hope that this will not be the case.

Brad
 

V10 MOJO

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yep, its just you, and perhaps a few others, but hey, its a free country see what you will say what you will and however you will, in a hundred yrs it really wont matter. meanwhile i sure do hope to enjoy that 2003 and 1999 on alternating days. one things for sure, if my 2003 gets even a tenth of the attention in public its gotten on this d*mn site i sure hope i can handle all the attention!
 

toddt

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I like the S2000 better.

Just being honest.

I'm afraid Dodge is setting us up to "settle" for the coupe because it looks _a little_ wilder than the SRT.

Wow. After 10 years with Viper, I was thinking the 2003 evolution of the viper was going to be <FONT size="6">WILD-A$$ CRAZY UNBELIEVABLE!!!!</FONT s>

Turns out, um, it wasn't.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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A sport bar like our current Vipers would have made a huge difference but then the whiners that want a "real" convertible, cupholders, storage space, etc. would have been upset.

So when are we getting an automatic?

No Dodge, I really don't want an automatic, I was being sarcastic.
 

King GTS

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by toddt:
I like the S2000 better.


Just being honest.


I'm afraid Dodge is setting us up to "settle" for the coupe because it looks _a little_ wilder than the SRT.


Wow. After 10 years with Viper, I was thinking the 2003 evolution of the viper was going to be <FONT size="6">WILD-A$$ CRAZY UNBELIEVABLE!!!!</FONT s>


Turns out, um, it wasn't.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.
 

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