is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #'s included

[plumcrazy]

is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

take a look at my setup. im gonna post a pic tonite of it along with the dyno sheet. but here is a description of the plumbing..

2-10 lb bottles,each have a 6" -4 braided line to a -4 "Y",1- 5" -4 braided line to a blue manifold that has the transducer,to another manifold that has the gauge, to the 5" long NX filter out to the -4 main line that has a slight bend in it, straight under the car thru the intake and under the solenoid.
coming out are 2 -4 braided lines to the shark nozzles.

602/820 on first pull with a really rich A/F. the initial hit had a big, quick drop in power & A/F got richer

we installed a 32 fuel jet and took out a ton of fuel at the injectors. sean roe thought we should have put in a bigger nitrous jet. it seems to be starving for fuel. unless i have a major amount of fuel which aint likely.

ended up at 554/700 and a A/F of 10.8

what do you guys think of my loss in power? is the problem in this area or a solenoid. im also thinking maybe a voltage drop??? id like to get it back over 600/800 but i need to figure this problem out first.

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

anyone ? ?

 

[Russ M]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

Plumcrazy,

Am I reading your set up description correct? You have both bottles necking down into 1 -4 Y?

And you have 1 or 2 NX nitrous solenoids? Are they the standard ones or the big solenoids?

How is your ignition? Spark plugs? Gaps? The drop in could be from the lack of a good spark.

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

plugs gapped right..
ignition is ok to my knowledge. the plugs looked good to sean roe.
yes two bottles down into 1 -4 Y connector since the rest of the line out is a -4 line.

one single NX nitrous solenoid that is a 225 shot capable.

any ideas russ?...thanx

spoke to josh at nitrous express today and he thinks i should have gone up to a 57 jet on the nitrous since my car has no fuel problems obviously and can support it.

 

[Russ M]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

Ok when all else fails look at the obvious.

Bottle pressure? Do you have a warmer/pressure guage? Your symptoms can be easily caused by too low of bottle pressure. You want to make all the pulls within 25psi on the pressure.

Bad nitrous fill? I have had it happen many times.

Solenoid getting stuck? But unlikely. Since your symptoms are not right.

Does your nitrous kit have the additional fuel pump? Or is this off the single factory pump?

PS. I would still like to know your spark plug gap's, most people leave it way to wide for what you are trying to do.

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

pressure was very consistnet. i checked that on every pull.

yes i got a heater with ha transducer.

stock fuel pump.

gap if i remember correctly was .34 on all plugs. that was going by a few guys on here recommendation.

thanx for the help russ

only things i can think of is maybe only using one bottle at a time isnt enough volume? and maybe im choking the nitrous thru the plumbing at the rear.

 

[Russ M]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

We were able to get about 200rwhp out of each bottle, unless the high flow tubing was used. You are going to restrict nitrous flow with the -4 but you are not there yet, almost but not close enough.

A local member has the exact setup as you and we were able to get 55x rwhp from his car with a 150 shot, the NX 200 shot did not have the right jets available from NX and the result was just a mere 10rwhp more if my memory serves me right.

What are you using for air/fuel reading? Please dont say its a tail pipe sniffer.

Try bumping up your nitrous pressure to 1100psi, if your a/f is 10:8 to 1. Should give you a good bump in power and make that mixture low 11's.

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

yes, rear pipe sniffer from the dyno. here are pics of the plumbing in the rear and my final dyno.

 

[Jack B]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

Plumcrazy:

We need to know more about your engine, what are your other mods. You also left out the jet sizes you are using. What was you base run NA. If you didn't, in the futre always start off with a base NA run, that will point out any engine problems prior to the nitrous pulls.

Another tip, if you do a nitrous run where you go crazy rich you should run the engine na prior to the next nitrous pull or remove the plugs and let it sit. The fuel can seep down into the first ring land and when you do your next nitrous pull the fuel within the land can mix with the nitrous can cause an event that can damage the piston.

One problem is your filter. You never want to increase the size of the nitrous plumbing in the direction of the solenoids, espciially near the bottle. Remove it and the system consistency/efficiency will improve.

 

[Russ M]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

From looking at your setup you will definatly not be able to run more than a 250hp shot, its the -4 restriction.

Besides that it looks good, and as I mentioned before your numbers are inline with a 99 GTS that I have seen tested and tuned.

The only thing I can come up with is that your first pull the bottle presure was higher than all the others. If the power was much lower than others I have seen then maybe it would be a problem. But it it is right in line with what your car should make.

An NA pull would be nice to see, but I am betting your car will make 430-440 or so as expected.

The other thing to think about is your air/fuel analyzer, tail pipe sniffers are next to useless and should not be counted on.

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

jack, my mods are in the sig. my base pull was 430 roughly and i forget the torque. I think the filter is gonna be coming off the system.

russ, the pressure was never more than 25 different from the previous. i checked on EVERY run. the car on the first pull was 602/820 and THAT is where i would think mine should be when im done. i dont want more than a 200 or 225 shot with it too. im NOT trying to push my fuel system.

jack this is especially to you...do you guys see any problems with all my fittings at the rear. THAT was my first thought as to a restriction.


thanx again for thelp.

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

jack, my mods are in the sig. my base pull was 430 roughly and i forget the torque. I think the filter is gonna be coming off the system.

russ, the pressure was never more than 25 different from the previous. i checked on EVERY run. the car on the first pull was 602/820 and THAT is where i would think mine should be when im done. i dont want more than a 200 or 225 shot with it too. im NOT trying to push my fuel system.

jack this is especially to you...do you guys see any problems with all my fittings at the rear. THAT was my first thought as to a restriction.


thanx again for help.

 

[Russ M]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

Plumcrazy,

I saw the post on the other forum about your plumbing, while it isnt the cleanest it is not an issue. While you may get a bit of a restriction it is not going to be much.

Not to mention that one of his reasons (nitrous not working well when being hot) is extreemly faulty.

Perhaps your guage was stuck? And you didnt realize the bottle pressure was higher. The reason I keep going back to bottle pressure is that your case is perfect for it.

Have you tried putting in a new set of spark plugs as well?

Why pull the filter? You trying to destroy your solenoid? And possibly a motor by having the solenoid get stuck open on you because it got dirt in it? A nice nitrous back fire can and will ruin your day, perhaps the tuner who suggested you remove your filter would be willing to take that chance but are you?

PS. I am telling you right now the NX kit you have does NOT make 600 rwhp, been there done that. The nitrous jets available are way too rich for that type of power. Its a problem with Viper fuel pressure being too high. So when you jet up to a 200 shot, the system dumps too much fuel in which makes the shot more like a 160. But with 50 hp more nitrous. Even the 150 shot is not all that great, the best was the 100 shot which gave something like 95+ at the wheels.

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

if i DID pull the filter...id make up a setup so when im filling the bottle you would have to go THRU the filter before it got into the tank. but i have read about that filter now two or three times about it NOT being good.

i can see the plumbing being a little bit of a restriction, im NOT sure if it is the WHOLE answer though.

from what ya said, it sounds like the car is putting out the power it SHOULD be then.???

pulled a plug and looked at it after a few pulls and it looked good sean said.

 

[Tom Welch]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

Russ,

What nitrous achievements do you have documentation of???

Your comments about my commments concerning HOT nitrous
are dead wrong, Sir. This is why the PURGE was invented...to clear warm nitrous and air from the line just before using.

His kit CAN easliy make 300 hp, as a matter of fact I have
not set up a single stage kit EVER that has made less than
600 RWHP on an otherwise stock Viper.

Hell, even Jack B can attest to this as his Viper made 620
at the wheels 5 years and several crappy solenoids ago...

I suggest that if you are going to claim Guru status and knock the suggestions of others more successful than yourself, bring something to the table other than ********, like proof or evidence that you have left the keyboard and actually ran with the big dogs...not wiped the sweat from their CENSORED....LOL

 

[Russ M]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

Tom you may be a viper nitrous guru, but please dont think you are the end all be all.

My accomplishments with nitrous consist of several 9 and 8 second street cars. Not to mention cars much faster than that.

Fact of the matter is you heat nitrous for a reason, to bring up the PSI. But making a blanket statement such as heating nitrous is bad, is definatly not a what I would expect from you.

And please tone down the language, not interested in a smack fest with you or anyone else over car parts. And where is it that I am claiming "Guru status", please post a link to that statement.

His kit can make that power if it was setup by you, but it sounds like he just has the standard NX kit which does not give you that type of adjustment from NX. Not to mention that the jetting given with it is complete crap.

PS. Why would YOU recomend to someone to remove their nitrous filter? I am sure you have had your fare share of stuck solenoids as I have and its not fun.

 

[Russ M]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

if i DID pull the filter...id make up a setup so when im filling the bottle you would have to go THRU the filter before it got into the tank. but i have read about that filter now two or three times about it NOT being good.

i can see the plumbing being a little bit of a restriction, im NOT sure if it is the WHOLE answer though.

from what ya said, it sounds like the car is putting out the power it SHOULD be then.???

pulled a plug and looked at it after a few pulls and it looked good sean said.

I would be willing to almost guarantee you that if you jetted your car for their 150hp shot, it will make about the same power as you are making now. Go to the dyno and try the 100 and 150 shots, and find out for your self.

PS. The last viper I had played with the 99 GTS/ACR made 427rwhp NA, so you numbers are almsot identical to his which is making me think the end results will be almost identical.

 

[1TONY1]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

PS. Why would YOU recomend to someone to remove their nitrous filter? I am sure you have had your fare share of stuck solenoids as I have and its not fun.

Uh, I don't think Tom recommended removing the filter in his VA post ....he did talk about cleaning the filter. I am the one that said ditch the filter. I have not installed a factory nitrous kit in my life with an external filter and have never had a problem. In fact, on "my" vehicles I delete the filter/fitting at the solinoid. Never a problem.....not even on the "7 second" 1/4 mile car

Plum.....Any and ALL nitrous filling stations should have a filter in line....not really worried about flow at that time. This does not mean it's not possible to get trash in somehow though and give the small chance of a problem...which would more likely be a restriction in the nozzle instead of a solinoid problem. Let me point out a no no, looking at your pic, the nitrous lines are laid back wide open like a ***** on ...oops, can't say that...anyway, get some small plastic caps to cover those lines when they are not on the bottle. Does the fitting at your nitrous solinoid inlet have a screen inside it ?

 

[Jack B]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

Plumcrazy:
Russ is a bit off course, the filter could be an issue especially at the bottle. The line itself is probably not an issue, a single 4AN line can handle about 300 hp.

Russ:
I hate to give anyone a nitrous 101 class, but, you seem to be missing some basic elements. Item number one, not all cars, but some, can exhibit hydraulic resonance, this is exacerbated by any size increase in the cross-sectional area of the plumbing, such as the filter. The filter is never a good idea, but it is terrible when placed at the source which is the bottle.

Secondly, Tony is correct, any reputable nitrous refiller is going to already have filtered the gas. Any increase in size turns the nitrous into a gas which you do not want. In addition, Tom is also right, any car with headers is going to pull 600-630.

Getting away from the school, what bothers me is Plumcrazy's drop in pressure. His noted drop in pressure seems excessive. Some good thoughts were put forward, once you exceed 99 degrees (about 1050 psi) the nitrous is a total gas and performance goes south. Perhaps the gauge is not working, but the differential is accurate, that would explain the big drop in pressure.

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

i certainly appreciate any and all comments and dont wanna start a problem with you guys.

im gonna take off the filter and make up a setup that when i fill it goes thru the filter then. not after the bottles are filled.

Tony, i have no filter at the solenoid. the shop does filter it when he is filling it though. plus i will be filtering it at the filling station myself.

i dont think the gauge is wrong, but ya never know. im gonna put a gauge on each bottle to eliminate some of the ugly plumbing. also gonna see about installing a transducer on each bottle instead for the same reason. that should clean up the plumbing.


Jack, looking at the dyno sheet, does it definetely mean I have a drop in pressure? it would make sense i think. but it is ONLY at the initial shot..


thanx.

 

[Tom Welch]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

Tony1

Thanks for the clarification. When I fill bottles at my
filling station, I use an inline filter. I also have
a filter at the solenoid on my own Viper...just out of
habit..IT IS NOT NEEDED.

I suggest that should your local filling station not have
a filter, take some of your extra lines and fittings and make a filter assembly for your bottle that is used when
you have your bottle filled. The filling station has
to connect to your bottle adapter nut (or any # 4 bottle
adapter nut) so they can just as easily connect to your
provided filter setup.

"Technical Grade" nitrous of 10 years ago, which contained
a high concentration of Sulpher, is all but gone now...this
type of NOS was placed into effect after the deaths of college students who were sniffing nitrous in a phone booth
during a college party. The Sulfer of course, inhibits
inhaling, but has large particles that were known to cause
solenoids to stick. Again this type of nitrous is all
but gone from use.

Take care, be a good boy Russ....LOL

 

[plumcrazy]

Re: is my engine starving for nitrous...dyno #\'s included

thanx tom.