Jalopnik seems to get it

[Solid Red 98]

Jalopnik calls out of the Motor Trend pansies over the Viper during their "Best Driver's Car" test.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/motor-trends-best-drivers-car-is-not-true-to-its-name-1444722597

 

[Tiago]

that's funny stuff

 

[Brian GTS]

Good read....thanks for posting.

 

[v10enomous]

Jalopnik Rocks

 

[ViperSmith]

MT doesn't even know what it like as a best car. Look how they trash the McLaren. My thus standard, the Viper should have been top dog

Motor Trend: Best Drivers Car 2012

5th Place: McLaren MP4-12C
"I Think That Bald Spot Makes you Look ****." A friend asked me about the results of this year's Best Driver's Car competition. While I couldn't (and didn't) reveal the results, I did tell him, "Ninth, fifth and first place are really going to piss people off." With that in mind, I present to you this year's fifth-place finisher, the McLaren MP4-12C. Yup, the latest product from the F1 wizards of Woking finished behind a $28K Subaru. I should also tell you that Randy flung the MP4-12C around Mazda Raceway in 1:34.5, a time good enough to bring home the gold from this year's event and just one-tenth of a second slower than our all-time Best Driver's Car champ, the Chevy Corvette Z06/Z07. And I should point out that this one wasn't even a 2013 MP4-12C -- that car gets a 24-hp bump to 616. Poor Randy and the rest of us had to make do with "only" 592 twin-turbo ponies. There's no doubt in anyone's mind that the MP4-12C would shatter the Corvette's time if the power bump were combined with a set of tires similar to the semi-slicks the Z06 was wearing. Who knows, it might even get within spitting distance of the Dodge Viper ACR's 1:33.94 Laguna Seca production-car record. And the active air brake is the coolest thing since NACA ducts. So why only fifth? As Evans so wonderfully and crudely said, "It's like paying for sex." The 12C is whispering all these nothings in your ear, "Oooh, you brake so hard! You turn in so fast! I can't believe how good you can drive." Aside from the fact that the new McLaren whispers nothing (it features Lexus LFA levels of interior aural assault), you're really not driving it that well, bub. The car is doing all these things for you. You might be asking yourself, doesn't the Nissan GT-R do all these things? Short answer is no, it doesn't. The GT-R smartly routes torque all over the place, but it doesn't amplify your inputs. A few degrees on the wheel doesn't equate to massive turn-in like on the McLaren. The gain on every one of the MP4-12C's controls is turned all the way up and the actual car-ness of the car is lost as a result. Explains MacKenzie, "When driven fast, the McLaren forces you to completely recalibrate your brain because the relationship between driver input and machine output is never quite linear. It's almost as if the car figures out what you're trying to do and just goes ahead and does it, leaving you slightly surprised and amazed at the result but also slightly guilty because you know you're not that good behind the wheel." Pobst, who only drove the MP4-12C on the racetrack and did a session with the electronic safety nets turned on, agrees. "I like it and I hate it. This McLaren raises the level of stability control to a whole other realm. There's a lot of computing at work, but the car's not driving exactly the way I'm driving it. I even find myself getting a little bit stupid, like I know I have these crutches so I lean on them. They work so smoothly it's almost invisible, except I know I just turned the wheel 20 degrees and the car's not turning 20 degrees. Something else is happening and that something else is very effective, but I'm not the guy really driving the car." There's a pause before he says, "It is amazing."

Please don't get us wrong -- the McLaren MP4 12C really is amazing. As Markus says, "Brakes feel fantastic. They engage right at the top of the pedal, totally firm, feel great. The handling limits are nowhere in sight of my willingness to push on a public road. Spectacular steering feel, great throttle response." He's not alone. Adds Kiino, "Power is amazing. Still have dreams about the launch control and rocketing through the quarter mile at over 130 mph." Evans: "So nimble. I feel like I'm right on the front wheels. Feels like I'm going a million miles per hour." And Lago: "The McLaren is a brilliant driving car, and the team should be proud of their accomplishments. It's fabulous, lithe, loud, and bonkers fast. It stumbles because it's more car than driver. Humans are woefully inefficient at limit driving, so removing them from the process makes the car go faster." But only Lago and Markus had the McLaren ahead of the BRZ. You heard right: Around Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, Randy Pobst preferred the $28,000 Toyota/Subaru to the $267,545 British hypercar. Truth, as they say, is stranger than fiction.

 

[TrackAire]

MT doesn't even know what it like as a best car. Look how they trash the McLaren. My thus standard, the Viper should have been top dog

The McLaren is one of the cars I really wanted to get into someday....I just love British cars and even their quirks. But, last Thursday McLaren had an event at Sonoma Raceway and a fellow Viper driver and very good racer (holds track records) went there as a guest to try one of the Macs out as a potential future purchase. Short story, he was disappointed....the car never felt stable when pushed to the limit. I don't think the stability control is dialed in for those that push it very fast. It seems to counter act what you're trying to do at the limit so you try to fix that response and are met with another.....very unnerving.

I'd think for 95% of the drivers (and their available talent) the car would be awesome. But when pushed to the absolute limit, the car is not confidence inspiring. This was also confirmed by another friend that is a very experience road racer when he took his turn behind the wheel. So maybe there is some validity behind MT's view of the McLaren

I watch the British car show called Fifth Gear and they slammed the first McLaren they tested saying it was not stable at the limit and you could not get any type of drift or controlled slide out of it without the car trying to counter act what you were doing regardless of where the stability control was set. They just retested the latest model (the Spyder) a couple of weeks ago and say it is much, much better but still no where near as predictable and stable as the 458. I'm kind of bummed, since I really didn't believe the MT article or the British TV show, but now a friend that I trust and knows how to drive has confirmed it....

Too bad SRT doesn't get 15 to 20 Viper owners out to a track with a new Gen 5 and a bunch of the competition's cars and let the owners find out what really works and what doesn't. Other manufacturers do this, why not SRT?

Cheers,
George

 

[ViperSmith]

George,

I drove the McLaren, chasing my friend who drove my Viper. I loved it. It just accelerated endlessly. It was crazy to be in a car that just goes and does't stop.

It is an outstanding vehicle. Rumors have it there is a "Mini-Mac" coming out in 2015 in the $100-120k range.

I still love my Gen V, but the McLaren is just an awesome car. I wish the money was there.

Harold

 

[strykergts]

I took the time to read the actual article, only to sort out for myself what the hell they were up to. My biggest beef? Look at their complaints about the viper. The main reason they attribute to the vipers demise is the mismatched and worn tires on the test mule. Fast forward to the end of the article and BAM! Tire rack on hand to deal with tires during the test. WHY THE HELL did they not change out the tires if that was the biggest complaint? The answer is simple, it made the car preform poorly. Ergo, a reason to put it dead last. The fit and finish complaints are B.S. considering they themselves knew it was a tried and true test mule, not even a true representation of the final product. At the end of the day, take a battered, bruised, and abused test car and it still kicks the pants off of the other "brand new" cars. I bought my last ever motor trend after reading this one. It was the most miserable excuse of writing i think I have ever read from a car magazine. At least most other magazines would try to hide their bias.

 

[TrackAire]

Harold,

I'm pretty sure you're spot on, especially on the street. I can't imagine ever being able to come anywhere close to the Macs potential on the street. But on the track, it appears to still have a few programming issues with the stability control.

Although they are not holding their values as well as one would hope, I would still love to get into one. I wouldn't be surprised to find a 2012 going for $150k in the next couple of years. I'm going to have to visit the McLaren dealer and find out when the next customer/track day is.

Cheers,
George

 

[compcoupe21]

Don't know if it's taboo to mention them here but you guys have to hear what the Corvette Forum had to say about this article, they actually think the C7 is a better car than the SRT.

 

[TrackAire]

Don't know if it's taboo to mention them here but you guys have to hear what the Corvette Forum had to say about this article, they actually think the C7 is a better car than the SRT.

I can see them saying that....but what constitutes a better car? Would the C7 be a better daily driver, have more room for luggage, easier to drive at "its" limit? Probably. The problem with "Best Drivers Car" is that it isn't always about final performance numbers.

The Gen 5 in the MT test had some issues (wrong tires, loose seat bolts, hood screen blowing out, etc)....that definitely did not help in the perception of the car, its quality and what the Viper stands for. You cannot blame MT for those flaws and them bringing them to light. I'd compare it to going to Hertz rent a car and renting a Ford Explorer and noticing that the front tires don't match the rear. I would not go out of may way to fix the issue, it's Hertz' issue. MT should not have to fix anything on the car....just as a Gen 5 buyer should expect a car that is ready to go when they get it from the dealership.

This bad press is not helping sales....the silver lining is that a Gen 5 will be discounted pretty heavily and soon. Some of us will be able to get into one for what the Gen 4 was costing new. And that is just nuts if you really thing about it. I'm thinking 2012 GTS's in the $90k range by March of 2014.

George

 

[madninjaskillz]

I can see them saying that....but what constitutes a better car? Would the C7 be a better daily driver, have more room for luggage, easier to drive at "its" limit? Probably. The problem with "Best Drivers Car" is that it isn't always about final performance numbers.

The Gen 5 in the MT test had some issues (wrong tires, loose seat bolts, hood screen blowing out, etc)....that definitely did not help in the perception of the car, its quality and what the Viper stands for. You cannot blame MT for those flaws and them bringing them to light. I'd compare it to going to Hertz rent a car and renting a Ford Explorer and noticing that the front tires don't match the rear. I would not go out of may way to fix the issue, it's Hertz' issue. MT should not have to fix anything on the car....just as a Gen 5 buyer should expect a car that is ready to go when they get it from the dealership.

This bad press is not helping sales....the silver lining is that a Gen 5 will be discounted pretty heavily and soon. Some of us will be able to get into one for what the Gen 4 was costing new. And that is just nuts if you really thing about it. I'm thinking 2012 GTS's in the $90k range by March of 2014.

George

I hope you're right. I will buy a GTS for 90k!

 

[strykergts]

The Gen 5 in the MT test had some issues (wrong tires, loose seat bolts, hood screen blowing out, etc)....that definitely did not help in the perception of the car, its quality and what the Viper stands for. You cannot blame MT for those flaws and them bringing them to light. I'd compare it to going to Hertz rent a car and renting a Ford Explorer and noticing that the front tires don't match the rear. I would not go out of may way to fix the issue, it's Hertz' issue. MT should not have to fix anything on the car....just as a Gen 5 buyer should expect a car that is ready to go when they get it from the dealership.

My big issue was with the fact that, at the end of the article, they flat out said the Tire Rack was there to provide tires during the testing. Not saying its not srt's fault, but I would be interested to see what cars had tire changes given that they even admitted they did so at the end of the article.

 

[PDCjonny]

Although they are not holding their values as well as one would hope, I would still love to get into one. I wouldn't be surprised to find a 2012 going for $150k in the next couple of years. I'm going to have to visit the McLaren dealer and find out when the next customer/track day is.

Cheers,
George

Please show me an exotic that is. Don't say Ford GT please, that's an anomaly. Low mileage second hand is the way to go.

 

[BigDawg]

George,

I drove the McLaren, chasing my friend who drove my Viper. I loved it. It just accelerated endlessly. It was crazy to be in a car that just goes and does't stop.

It is an outstanding vehicle. Rumors have it there is a "Mini-Mac" coming out in 2015 in the $100-120k range.

I still love my Gen V, but the McLaren is just an awesome car. I wish the money was there.

Harold

I guess that would be a min-mini-mac. P1 is the real McLaren

 

[BigDawg]

Please show me an exotic that is. Don't say Ford GT please, that's an anomaly. Low mileage second hand is the way to go.

Pre-financial crash Ferrari's were that. People are trying it again but it's not working this time.

 

[ViperSmith]

Used 458 are holding value, but that is just because of the trade in game ferrari plays.

 

[TrackAire]

Please show me an exotic that is. Don't say Ford GT please, that's an anomaly. Low mileage second hand is the way to go.

I think the key point is the McLaren has been a bit of a disappointment in regards to depreciation in comparison to other exotics. I'm not into the F-cars much, but I'm guessing a 2012 458 with a couple of thousand miles is going to have depreciated less percentage-wise than a 2012 McLaren with the same mileage. I really do think that the Mac will be the performance bargain on the used car market when compared to the Lambo's and F-cars.

Regarding the Ford GT's, I think you're seeing the high point of value......kinda stupid high auction prices right now but the bubble is about to burst and drop back down to reality IMO. Car auctions might just be the perfect money laundering system if you think about it. Some of the recent sales in the 20 to 30 million range for a single car is just crazy. The IRS cannot mandate what a cars worth is when at auction....where those dollars go, especially in the global market would be interesting to trace.

Cheers,
George

 

[theviper]

Other manufacturers do this, why not SRT?

Because SRT Marketing is still registering for the Intro to Marketing course.

 

[theviper]

Don't know if it's taboo to mention them here but you guys have to hear what the Corvette Forum had to say about this article, they actually think the C7 is a better car than the SRT.

I hate to say it (and I truly never thought I would say a Corvette is better than a Viper), but they may be right...and at 50% of the price.

 

[MoparMap]

It pretty much just boils down to what you want out of your car. If you want to get fast track times easy, a GT-R or MP4 seems like the good ticket. If you want affordable performance it's hard to beat a Vette. If you want prestige and looks with good performance a Ferrari or Lambo fits the bills pretty well. Entertaining but maybe a bit of a challenge to drive? I'd think a Porsche, Viper, or AMG Merc since they all have been known to be a little tail happy. There's no one car that's better than any other car out there, it's just personal preference.

 

[mnc2886]

Don't know if it's taboo to mention them here but you guys have to hear what the Corvette Forum had to say about this article, they actually think the C7 is a better car than the SRT.

As they should. It is the car they are enthusiasts about.

We, well, some here, are enthusiasts about Vipers and would choose one over cars that may be in a "higher-class." I really wouldn't read into that.

 

[PeerBlock]

First of all, LOL @ placing the viper behind a Focus ST. They probably thought along the lines of, "The Viper is so awesome, better than most cars domestic or import, but I'm mad that I'll never be able to own one so I'm going to rate the Focus higher because I have one / can afford one and that makes me feel better."

I think we can safely state that the beta males making up MT and most other mags are hardly reliable sources of information on how a car handles, performs or drives in general. This article did a good job of explaining the basic issue of bad drivers rating cars based on highly subjective criteria, heavily biased toward their personal preferences and overall lack of driving skills.

Yes, a sh1tty driver will get better lap times in a GT-R vs a Viper because the sh1tty driver needs the computer nanny to pick up his/her slack. You may get better lap times but you do not improve your driving abilities.

A skilled driver experienced with a powerful RWD car like the Viper should surpass the GT-R most of the time...and you know what, if I hit the track I'm sure my first few laps will ****...and I may even spin out a few times...but once I get the nuances of the track and the car down I'm confident that I could get into the top 10 times for the particular track in my Viper.

What I like about driving the Viper is that it forces you to get better or ****.

 

[klamathpro]

I don't get it. I just don't get it at all. I have driven and felt the crazy response that the GT-R gives, I want one, will likely buy one soon, I understand the car. Those that don't know have never driven one. But for MT to put the Viper, even a test mule, behind the the ST and some of those other cars is ridiculous. Yes, SRT dropped the ball when they sent them that tired old ******, but let me say this... If my 15 year old GTS is more rewarding than an ST, how in the world is the 2013 SRT not that much better. This crap about the Viper being a handful completely went out the door to never return when the 2013 came out. Much of the snakebite stigma came from GEN1's with XGT's and never got shaken off. I was amazed what a modern tire (last five years) can do to change a car's handling, performance, and feel. My RT/10 was night and day even from a 10 year old tire technology. My GTS became a handling beast with 2013 Toyo R888's. Unless that test mule had steel belts bleeding through the tires, the car should have been funner and more rewarding to drive than an ST on a dry track.

 

[v10enomous]

So Ralph went after Motor Trend after the first ZR1 Comparo and Motor Trend hit back... Pure ******* match but the irony is that Motor Trend lost what shred of credibility it was hanging on to with pretty much everyone that matters.

 

[gtssnake]

Motor Trend is a joke and unless they SRT spends a ton of money advertising they do not say good things. IMO

 

[hammerofgods]

Jalopnik does not get and neither does Ralph Gilles, McLaren does though.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

Motor Trend is a joke and unless they SRT spends a ton of money advertising they do not say good things. IMO

This. Anyone who thinks Motor Trend produces completely objective stuff needs their eyes and brain checked.

 

[chorps]

No publication is truly objective, especially if they take advertising, but SRT screwed up big time with that particular car and gave MT plenty of ammunition to punish SRT for being so careless.