Jersey Viper crashes on Turnpike

[DrDJ]

Yeah, and they don't use ABS...

http://www.formula1.com/insight/technicalinfo/11/477.html

Buy a Vette Dr., they're lotsa fun.

[/QUOTE]

No desire to buy a Vette, Chuck. Not a bad car at all, but it's hard to take a step back. How about coming up with a new put down? That one is going on 10 years old.

So I see that you don't like ABS either? It figures. If you are so anti-technology and anti-progress, why don't you put drum brakes on your Viper, a live axle, leaf springs, and vintage bias ply tires on 7 inch wide rims? Then we can really see what kind of driver you are....

 

[Janni]

Nowhere does Chuck say he doesn't like ABS - he just uses your argument that if F1 uses TC, and they are "the best drivers in the world" then we ought to have it on the Viper to ask if you're gonna be leading the charge to remove ABS...

Team Viper has said that the Viper already comes with TC - it's your left and right feet - learn to use them.

Many Viper fans want a car that rewards you for being a good driver - not one that allows marginal drivers to feel like Mario Andretti because the electronics will bail their no skills butt out of trouble. If they think they can drive this car like they do their Ford Taurus rental - they deserve to get bitten.

Smooth linear accelleration, sneaking up to the limits of adhesion, controlling a tail happy car are all things that bring a smile to the face of a good driver - and the enthusiasts that made the Viper what it is today.

Dumb this car down for the masses - and you'll lose the very people that are so rabid for the Viper - and THAT will signal it's demise.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Then we can really see what kind of driver you are....

If you're really interested meet me at Viper Days. I'll be in the old beat up, tech-free, 97 GTS.

 

[DrDJ]

Nowhere does Chuck say he doesn't like ABS...

That's not how I read it, but maybe Chuck will clarify. The discussion was about TC and slamming ABS and suggesting that I buy a Corvette was the best response that Chuck could come up with. ABS is to brakes as TC is to the drive train. You can't blast one and not the other.

Other items that Chuck may want to consider ditching include airbags, seatbelts, safety glass, collapsing steering column, etc.

 

[DrDJ]

If you're really interested meet me at Viper Days. I'll be in the old beat up, tech-free, 97 GTS.

If you make my suggested mods, I would consider it...

 

[GR8_ASP]

But Chuck what do you say if one responds that Formula 1 used to have ABS. As you are probably aware they removed it because it made the cars too "equal" in braking making passing too difficult.

But street cars are way different. Without ABS the brake bias has to be biased to the front an excessive amount to prevent locking the rears first under extreme conditions (high speed, wet, etc) thus the rears do little work. With ABS the bias can be more appropriate and the ABS system prevent said rear lockup.

But if ABS is requiired to keep our cars competitive with the competition in braking (and pre-ABS Vipers were TERRIBLE for braking) then what is the argument for not having traction control to keep us competitive in acceleration as well?

 

[AviP]

Other items that Chuck may want to consider ditching include airbags, seatbelts, safety glass, collapsing steering column, etc.

I know this is not Chuck's quote but going by his past responses, I'm with Chuck on this issue. Many Viper owners, at least the original Gen I/II owners bought the car because of it's visceral appeal. I know I did. Unlike modern sports cars, the Viper is very plain under the hood. It's not that different from a sports car of bygone eras and that is it's appeal.

 

[FlyBryViper]

There are many things in life that some people should be qualified (and/or eliminated) before ownership.

 

[GR8_ASP]

I may not be in the mainstream but my purchase decision back in 1995 was not based on the lack of technology. It was the appearance, performance and cost (yes back then the Viper was cost advantageous over the vette competition).

The visceral feel for me was the torque available almost all of the time and not the mninivan level of braking and right front brake lock-up embarassment. That was a detraction from the overall package.

The windows, or lack thereof, were enough of a dislike that I purchased Vmania clear windows. Not nearly as functional as true roll down window but better than the boat US version. Had it come with ABS and traction contol I would have been happy as long as they were 100% defeatable. I mean I did not complain about electronic engine control, fuel injection or even the ... gulp ... key fob (I mean how many Cobras had an electronic key fob?). Technology by itself is not a negative. I really do not want a car to feel like an early 1960's car with drum brakes, bias ply tires, vinyl seats that crack in 1 year, oil leaking, oil burning, etc. I want a modern day cobra not a yestertech cobra. Emphasis on MODERN DAY.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Nowhere does Chuck say he doesn't like ABS...

That's not how I read it, but maybe Chuck will clarify. The discussion was about TC and slamming ABS and suggesting that I buy a Corvette was the best response that Chuck could come up with. ABS is to brakes as TC is to the drive train. You can't blast one and not the other.

Other items that Chuck may want to consider ditching include airbags, seatbelts, safety glass, collapsing steering column, etc.

LOL Yeah, airbags, seatbelts, etc - those are driver aids.

As for ABS, it offers a huuuuuge track advantage so it was really a no-brainer. Even the big V10 couldn't overcome that. However, if the SCCA or any other racing organization followed F1's lead I'd give them a big And I'm betting most racers would.

Stick with doctoring Dr. and leave the enjoyment of driving to those who enjoy driving rather than being driven. Maybe get yourself the new Xbox, those seem like a lot of fun.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

But Chuck what do you say if one responds that Formula 1 used to have ABS. As you are probably aware they removed it because it made the cars too "equal" in braking making passing too difficult.

It wasn't making the cars too equal it was making the drivers too equal. (maybe that's what you meant by the quotes?) Anyway might as well play video games. F1 realized this and is trying to put driver skill back into the equation.

But if ABS is requiired to keep our cars competitive with the competition in braking (and pre-ABS Vipers were TERRIBLE for braking) then what is the argument for not having traction control to keep us competitive in acceleration as well?

TC is not near as big advantage as ABS.

 

[DrDJ]

LOL Yeah, airbags, seatbelts, etc - those are driver aids.

As for ABS, it offers a huuuuuge track advantage so it was really a no-brainer. Even the big V10 couldn't overcome that. However, if the SCCA or any other racing organization followed F1's lead I'd give them a big And I'm betting most racers would.

So there you have it, Chuck doesn't like ABS either. Not saying his opinion is wrong, especially because he is at least consistent. Anyone would agree that ABS and TC tend to be equalizers. F1 has a recurring pattern of one team ********** for one or more seasons at a time. Is that due to driver skill or car preparation?

For those who shun TC but laud ABS, you are being hypocritical.

At any mention of the benefits of TC, there is always a chorus of "you can't drive worth sh__, give up your Viper, get a Corvette, your right foot is your TC - learn to use it, get your car out to the track, you shouldn't be allowed to own a Viper, no one would buy a Viper with TC (what then would you have bought instead?), blah,blah,blah. You are missing the point. The driving ability of anyone that sees the benefits of ABS and TC is not the issue. Like ABS, TC is a safety feature and may have indeed prevented the material loss and injuries mentioned originally in this thread.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Like ABS, TC is a safety feature and may have indeed prevented the material loss and injuries mentioned originally in this thread.

Truuuuuuue...so buy any one of a dozen similar classed cars that have it and leave our Viper alone.

 

[DrDJ]

Truuuuuuue...so buy any one of a dozen similar classed cars that have it and leave our Viper alone.

Yawn....Let me know when you complete your mods...

For now, I'm off to another impromptu drifting competition so that I can take full advantage of my non TC Viper...

 

[thebigsnake]

One of the reasons I'm attracted to my Viper is that its NOT fool-proof.

 

[Camfab]

Okay I've gotta chime in on this as well. One thing is for sure and I mean a fact. If anyone actually believes that technology in the racing world is shunned, you are out of your minds. The only reason F-1 cars don't have a particular technology is because of cost or fair play politics. Deep down all of you know this. Anyone who has ever touched a racecar, or a streetcar for that matter wants the ultimate edge. Teams spend millions of dollars to gain a tenth or less, I know you all know this.

All that said, yes I bought my car because in my mind it reminds me of a modern day '69 ZL-1. It's completely politically incorrect and I love it. Would I not like this car if it had ABS or traction control? Common give me a break! My car is considered least desirable, why? because it's a cream puff with no ABS. Personally I think thats b.s. and I have no problem with it not having ABS. I like it's simplicity, but to bash other guys because they like technology reminds me of jr. high.

Just a simple question? When the next generation Viper has these technologies incorporated, are you gonna bash people for buying it?

Technology has no guarantee, do you believe that guys buying the new Z-06 aren't going to crash? I believe their accident rates will rival the Vipers.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

One thing is for sure and I mean a fact. If anyone actually believes that technology in the racing world is shunned, you are out of your minds.

Really?

Signed,
Brian France
NASCAR Chairman, CEO

 

[Camfab]

I was talking about racers and team owners. Not CEO's, nor weekend warriors. Big business racing is all about winning=money=technology. You may not see it but it's certainly there.

Great forum guys....

Happy Thanksgiving Chuck and to every other Viper nut and their Family!

 

[thebigsnake]

I dislike electronic driving enhancements because I know how to drive a sports car. Been at it since my Spitfire in 1972. So to me abs is bs. You get the satisfaction that your vehicle was perfectly straight when it plowed into the guy ahead.