Just have to brag a LITTLE :) Ran 11.76 in virtually stock Viper

[Mike Brunton]

At Englishtown just yesterday... I ran [email protected]. The car is stock except for K&N's, smooth tubes, and a removed rear muffler.

I dont have the slip in front of me, but my 60' time was 1.789 (pretty darn good) and I used the patented Mike driving technique to pull an 11.76 out of the car

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This beats the 11.78 that the car ran previously at New England Dragway and is one of the fastest times for a stock car that I've ever heard of - I'm happy!

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[treynor]

That is DARN good! Could you share this "patented technique" with the rest of us mortals who are stuck at 2.05 sec 60's?

 

[Mike Brunton]

Ben,

I've been drag racing for years, but mostly in automatics. I was stuck at the low 12's for 2 years in the Viper, and did some little things that dropped me into the 11's. I ran 3 11 second runs at Englishtown on Friday - 11.98, 11.96, and 11.76. I am sure I could have gone 11.6 or even better given enough time to learn the track.

Anyway, here's how you do it...

First, you need to get a good launch. You need to push the limit of traction. This takes a well prepped drag strip. My 60' time was 1.79 on that run, but even with a 1.9 60', I ran 11.9. I launch the car at 2000RPM on the first run, and I go up 500RPM each successive run until I spin the tires, then I know how hard I can launch. When I lauch, I basically drop the clutch.. I let it out real quick and only slip it a little. I slip it for about 3/4 of a second (like I let the pedal up from the floor over 3/4 second). You may need to slip your clutch more or less, depending on how "used" it is - I have 20k on my car, so the clutch probably slips a little on it's own. As for tire pressure, I havent noticed that it matters all that much. I've run my best time at 30psi, when I dropped to 22psi, I had a harder time hooking up. I'd use Tom Welch's burnout technique to get the best PSI to run at.

The other thing you need to do - and I *can't* stress this enough, is to shift lightning fast. I know everyone thinks they can shift fast, but you need to consciously work on it

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. My shifts occur in about 1/10 of a second. Work on pushing the clutch in faster, pulling the gears faster, and letting the clutch out faster... I prepare for the shift as the car is running through the RPM range. When it gets into the middle of the yellow, I stab the clutch FAST, pull the gear FAST, then drop the clutch FAST. I also don't let off the gas all the way when I shift, just enough to keep the RPM's around 4500RPM so the gears mesh well on the shift.

If you do this, you will be in the 11's everytime as long as you get below a 2.0 60' time. The thing is you need to actually work on the shifts - every single guy I talk to, i tell them I picked up 1/2 second from just shifting, and they all sorta say "yea yea yea, I shift fast too" - but I used to think that too, until I started working on it

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.

I raced another identically prepared GTS yesterday at the track. He dialed in at 12.25 and I dialed in at 12.20, so he launched before me (he also had a 0.603 R/T to my 0.809. He got out about 1/2 carlength, but when I launched, I immediately pulled almost even with him - maybe 1' behind. We were neck and neck, with neither of us pulling the other... but on *every* shift, I would gain about 1-2 feet on him. By the time the race was over, I had maybe 1/2 carlength on him. I'm sure the guy is baffled how our two identical cars could be so different, and I bet he thought he was shifting fast, but at the end of the track, I ran a 12.3 to his 12.6 - I was about .1 second better on the 60' (if I remember right), so the rest was made up purely on my shifts.

Sorry for the novel - I hope it helps! If you're ever around here, I'll show you how it's done... any stock Viper - and I mean *ANY* one of them is an 11-second car bone stock. With some mods they can go much faster.

 

[treynor]

Mike,
Very much appreciate the "novel". I recently discovered what you already knew -- very very quick shifting. The first time I decided to really concentrate on fast shifts was the second run of my second time taking my car to the 'strip. My first run that day was a 12.38 @ 117.4. I decided I was probably losing too much time during shifts, so I concentrated solely on shifting quickly for the second pass. My second run was a 12.08 @ 120.04 -- with an identical 60' time! Fast shifts make a huge difference. I can still substantially improve my technique in this area.
I'm still having difficulty with the launch. I've tried launching at different RPMs and different throttle positions, but have yet to crack the 2.0 sec barrier. Some of it's probably the track I'm at (Sears Point) but I'm sure there's more I could do with technique, so any pointers are appreciated. I've similarly experimented with 22 - 30PSI in rear wheels and seen very little difference. I've settled on 25 PSI for the moment.

Launch:
1200 RPM with throttle barely cracked, hit gas as soon as clutch fully engaged --> engine bogs, no wheelspin, 2.1sec 60'
1200 RPM hitting throttle as I release clutch --> wheelspin for first second, then hooks up hard, 2.05 sec 60'
1500 RPM hitting throttle as release --> massive wheelspin with rising RPM, had to back out of throttle.
1500 RPM engaging throttle once clutch is out --> engine bog, 2.08 sec 60'

Thanks again,
Ben

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Mike,
Congrats, you ran a very respectable time. You showed what you can do by lowering your 60' time. I'm sure you'll be at it again in great force!

Regards,
Doug

 

[Mike Brunton]

Ben,

I should write a book "Zen and the art of shifting a Viper". Seriously though, you know what you need to do

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I concentrate on shifting hard and fast. While in the stage lanes, I run through the gears with the clutch pushed in. I notice that the Viper transmission reacts differently to different shift speeds depending on how heated up it is, so I get a feel for how hard I need to pull to shift quickly. It sounds silly, but I am positive I pick up a good tenth or two just from this alone. My last run proves this - I've run other stock cars and I consistently pull them a couple of feet on every shift - and that isnt' even powershifting!


Don,

It was great to meet you and your son - I just talked to you briefly (asking questions while looking under your hood), but I talked to your son for a while - he's a great guy. Your car is really fast considering it's not a stroker - just need to get that think hooked up! Too bad you can't run a taller slick without rubbing the brakes... you should let me drive it sometime - I'll get that sucker moving

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Alan,

Gimme a break will ya... did I smoke you or something and now you're bitter?

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Those K&N's and smooth tubes are rated at 10hp at the CRANK by Dodge (on the ACR). Ben on this very thread saw 8RWHP I believe... so don't tell me they are worth 20hp at the wheel. As for the rear muffler removal, it is a straight through design - it is NOT restrictive on the car. Also, mine was replaced by a gimp who put on 1.25 - YES, THAT'S RIGHT ONE AND A QUARTER INCH pipes, and they are NOT mandrel bent... they are tiny, but sound good so I haven't gotten them fixed yet. I think I actually LOSE power with them.

But this is all acedemic right? To answer your question, my car dynoed at 414HP at the wheels in it's current form. Is that so far from what most "stock" Vipers will do? The one they dynoed in Motor Trend made 424hp at the rear wheels. HMS, TNT, Levin or others will tell you that 414 is not uncommon at all for a stock car. I believe Hennessey was quoted in a mag to say they were seeing an average of 410 or so at the wheels on the cars they dynoed. Heck, Chris Marshall was putting down a LOT more than that on his stock car. You can argue the exhaust if you like, but I think K&N's and smooth tubes are considered "stock" by just about everyone - especially since they come on the ACR from the factory.

As for your question about mods... well, the organizers of the event consider K&N's, smooth tubes and a cat-back to be "stock". I don't even have a cat-back. I beat TWO ACR's - one with SVSI headers and one with Belangers. Both had 3" exhausts, K&N's and smooth tubes... there is no doubt in my mind that I *MAYBE* picked up .05 from the mods I did - 0.1 second at MOST. It's still an 11 second run however you slice it. My best MPH was 119.5 and the other runs I made were in the mid 118 range, which certainly doesn't lead me to believe that I am making more HP than stock cars which run the same MPH.

The dyno tells the real story - and I just don't think 414 at the wheels is really above stock power levels - if at all. I've seen a bunch of better dyno numbers on BONE stock cars. hey, just my 0.02... do the same mods as me and we'll run for bragging rights, deal?

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[Mike Brunton]

Ben,

Forgot to comment on launches...

The track makes all the difference. At my local track (New England Dragway) the don't spray the traction compound on a Wednesday, so I am lucky to see sub 2.0 60' times... I also spin ******* the 1-2 shift which kills my times. On a Friday I can launch harder... my friends tell me to go on a Sunday when the BIG drag cars go, because the track will be really sticky then.

It sounds like your track isn't that good on the line... if you are spinning that bad, I'd suggest you go on a day when they have a drag racing event... the track will be at maximum traction JUST after a big dragster goes down and leaves a trail of hot sticky rubber.

To give you an idea, I dropped the clutch at 3000RPM on Friday and the car just HOOKED and it hooked HARD - it leaped out of the hole and I barely got a chirp on the 1-2 shift (followed by more leaping). Anymore than 3000RPM and some clutch slip and I was smoking the tires. At my track I've never been able to launch at more than 2500rpm, but even with 2.1 60' times I run 12.1's at 119-120mph... I think if you were at E-town on Friday you would have run a mid-high 11 second run too... only thing I can say is wait for a good day - cool air, low humidity, and a big drag event.

Are you high above sea level? My track is at 90'... dunno what E-town is, but e-town is known for being a fast track.

 

[treynor]

Mike,
OK, that certainly explains the launch mystery

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I get wheelspin even launching at 1200 RPM if I've got any gas on the launch, and I get substantial wheelspin in the 1-2 shift which I just ride out. If I could get the car to hook up on a 3000 RPM launch, I'd be in business. Oh wait, I can -- that's why I bought Purner's slicks / skinnies combo

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Again, thanks for the tips -- I'll be practicing for the big Viper & Vette meet in August.

Regarding RWHP, I saw a 7.6 RWHP gain (from 407.6 to 415.2) going from stock to smooth tubes & K&Ns. Your 414 figure is right on for a car with tubes.

 

[Kid97GTS]

I think Mike's mods are about as close to stock as anyone outside of a trailer queen nut would want to go. If filters and tubes are such a problem for the "stock" classification, I guess Mike can just claim to have a '98 ACR. Any way you cut it, it takes a lot of skill to turn those numbers, even on a track soaked in VHT. I've got about 10+ hp over Mike's numbers and I'm still about .4 slower - great runs dude!

 

[David Jenkins]

A car with K&N's/smoothies (17hp) and no rear muffler (?hp) is not stock. None the less a GREAT lap with the slight mods. The best I've seen was a 12.16 lap layed down by Bill Bagshaw. Stock filters, tires, shifter, exhaust, etc. Bill used to drive Pro Stock cars. You all are correct when it comes to shifting. The least amount of time between gears the better. I was lucky enough to learn from two of the best "hand shakers" around. Jim Thompson from the Rod Shop and Herb "Mr. 4 Speed" Mc Candless from the Sox and Martin team. Jim always told me that Herb was the fastest shifter around.
Here's a couple tips. Put some preload on the shifter BEFORE you shift. Pull back, or push up, on the lever before you push the clutch. Under load the trans won't pull out of gear, and the preload will give you a slight head start on the gear change. Don't pull too hard. Next is a clutch stop. I can almost bet everyone pushes the clutch farther down then it needs to go to make the gear change. Too much pedal travel is waisted motion and ET. Remove the front anti-sway bar and set the toe to 0 with the front end raised 2". This simulates the noise being raised on the run and you don't need any toe with a drag car. Do the toe last as this will effect the handling of the car. As always, change ONE THING at a time to see the gain or decrease in ET/MPH. Don't know if I should be tellin' all the east coasters this stuff. That 11.76 is a great lap Mike....congrats!!dj

 

[Venom 1000TT]

My .02 worth...... I ran an 11.90 at 121mph at CecilCo., MD
on street Michelin tires. My car may not be as quick but it runs faster. They are many "muscle cars" quicker at the track than mine but very few faster. All that was done was K&N's,Smooth tubes & Exhaust.

 

[Chuck 97 GTS]

Great times, Mike! What RPM did you shift at?

 

[Mike Brunton]

Of course a car with different air filters, smooth tubes and a muffler delete is not "bone stock", but I think it's close enough that most people I know wouldn't consider it modified. I guess I am not the only one who thinks this because this also was the "stock" classification at Englishtown. You always need to draw a line between stock and non-stock cars for racing purposes, and these mods add so little that they are almost always grouped into a "stock" class.

I have the benefit of having dynoed my car, and it made 414 at the wheel, as I said. To me, that's not really any different than stock... stock cars are making 400-410 easily, with strong running cars making more.

Enough of the soapbox...


Chuck,
As for when I shift, I shift in the middle of the yellow, about 5800RPM.

Kid, all I can say is you guys are lucky I am not out in SoCal, otherwise I'd be using my powers to school you at the track, along with those Vettes

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All's fair in love, war, and drag racing right?

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[BWoodbury]

Chuck,

You comming out to the drags this weekend? Nice avatar! Good thing you chose the rear view as it is not a site I'll be seeing on the track.

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Mike,

Awsome run! What can I say, just look at how I ran with 12 more HP. I need more seat time! And a better track! I can always blame it on the track right?

 

[Joseph Houss]

These were the classes at our NE zone Rendezvous:

VG1 - Gen 1 with no mods EXCEPT K&N's, hoses and cat back exhaust

VG2 - Gen 2 with same mods allowed

(Our techs did check to make sure headers were not added, and we listened to make sure cats were not removed)

VM1 - All other mods, no power adders (S/C, NOS, TURBO), no slicks

VM2 - VM1 + slicks

VU - ALL power adders

These classes worked out great, and the high to low E.T.'s were well within a range of what was considered competitively equal.

By the way, 95% of the cars were VG2.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Alan,

Shifter, huh? So would a front splitter count towards non-stock for drag racing? How about an MGW shift knob? Or a shift light? If it ain't adding power, it ain't helping you down the 1/4.... there comes a point at which it is kinda crazy to make a case for a car not being stock. I also have 5-point belts, an aftermarket stereo, different exhaust tips, an on-board battery tender, Sean Roe's auto-cooling fan thing, removed sun visors, a cell phone mount on the dash, and a home control kit wired in... so I guess I should have been in the "highly modified" class

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.

I don't feel singled out Alan, and I am not upset at the point you are trying to make, but I guess the bottom line is "how much is too much"? My mods got me MAYBE 10 horse at the wheel... that is insignificant in a 400RWHP car. Headers can give 40 or more to the wheel.. that's more significant.

Ok, so my car is not bone stock - I never said it was "factory stock". Like Kid said, I guess I would be "stock" in an ACR class? Either way, you don't hear of many Vipers running 11's, whether they be GTS's or ACR's, and you don't hear of ACR's being generally quicker in the 1/4 than GTS's. We obviously have different opinions of what makes stock... but as I said before, and Joe confirmed, the rules of the game were that STOCK meant no POWER mods except K&N, smooth tubes, and cat back. I fit the category and YES they did check, so I feel perfectly justified in saying my stock car ran an 11.76... you may feel different - to each his own.

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[Chuck 97 GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BWoodbury:


Good thing you chose the rear view as it is not a site I'll be seeing on the track.

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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, you won't see it at the track. BECAUSE I WON'T BE THERE!!!

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Seriously, I didn't know you guys were going. Or where you were going. What's the scoop??

 

[Joseph Houss]

This is a great debate, and we thought long and hard to come to the delimiters that we designed.

Since ACR's have K&Ns and hoses, if we were to NOT allow this "enhancement" to earlier snakes, it would only be right to create another class for stock ACR's. Now, the exhaust issue was discussed in length with my "tech support" and we established that for purposes of not putting a "Snake Oyl" style enhancement in a class of much more highly modified cars, we would allow this one feature. Yes, we know this added a few HP, but we know from the E.T.'s from the large field of VG2 cars, that we did, in fact, do the right thing as their times were well within the realms of allowing a great driver in a bone stock car to have an advantage over a semi or novice driver in a Viper that had all three allowable "enhancements".

...and by the way, we took a vote on Saturday, and ended up having a bracket style elimination...to "level" the playing field....and most important....all had a great time!

 

[BWoodbury]

Chuck,

This was something Scott (TOOFAST) was putting together. Looks like a rain out to me. Maybe next weekend. I'll keep you in mind in the hopes that you stop talking and start racing...

 

[Mike Brunton]

I'll second what Joe said and say that we had a GREAT TIME!

Also, I ran against 2 ACR's

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Both of them had headers, and full exhaust and.... they both succumbed to the mighty power of Moose - the silver GTS

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(just teasing you guys)...

But seriously, Joe and group definitely made the right decision. I got a great kick out of the fact that I was running as well or better than cars with probably 40+ hp on me, but that just made it more fun.

Now, let's not mention the Autocross.... I forget who the driver was (Joe, the guy with the Miata - you remember?), but I thought I was kicking butt with my 47-something time... he proceeded to run a 43 SECOND TIME in MY CAR. Talk about humbling. He was also running faster in his Miata than any of the Vipers, and this wasn't a tiny course either.

I need to learn the patented Joe Houss technique for finishing... it's cool to watch... he actually brakes the timing light with the BACK of his car. I'm convinved he added a few seconds that way! How do you do it, Joe?

 

[PMUM]

When are you gonna learn Brunton? When you beat those guys drag racing, you MUST'VE been cheating. How else could somebody lose? Cheating is the only answer. I'm imagining you had at least roller rockers, a ported head and most importantly....the dreaded balanced and blue printed motor! That's what cheaters get done to win trophys and no prize money.

Also, when you were in the autocross and that guy jumped in your car and schooled you, he was cheating. I suspect you put your car back to stock and unbalanced and unblueprinted the motor when you ran, then he jumped in and when you weren't looking balanced and blueprinted the motor and took off. He also could've smuggled a set of Caldwell's autocross heads and threw them on in between run sessions.

See, in Viperworld there is no such thing as driver skill, just different levels of cheating. The sooner you learn this, the better! But hey, if you're not cheatin', you're not tryin'....

WAR CHEATERS!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Joseph Houss]

lots of practice!

Actually that was my patented "post finish slide"!

...by the way, timing light wasn't even touched .. I think that was just the residual wind from my amazing control!

 

[Kid97GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PMUM:


See, in Viperworld there is no such thing as driver skill, just different levels of cheating. The sooner you learn this, the better! But hey, if you're not cheatin', you're not tryin'....

WAR CHEATERS!!!!!!!!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes, cheaters are prevalent at most track days. You can usually spot them lounging in their RV's while their crew chiefs covertly add 50 hp under the cover of a blue tarp. Some common, yet hard to detect means of cheating that are used include:
-addition of MGW shifter (+5 hp)
-lap timer jammer (cuts 2 sec.s off lap time)
-lightweight driving suit (saves 10 ounces)
-carbon fiber valve stems (saves .2 ounces at the corners, where it counts)
-Inspector Gadget go-go-gadget afterburner (gives you that extra boost to pass the Integra on the front straight)
-And of course "No Fear" sticker on front grill (induces such fear in import drivers that they are forced to let you by)

 

[Chuck 97 GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BWoodbury:


I'll keep you in mind in the hopes that you stop talking and start racing...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or that I stop talking and send you down in flames worse than the Hindenburg. Dude runs a 12.46 and he thinks he's Bob Glidden...

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WAR IL REGION SMACKDOWNS!!!

 

[Mike Brunton]

Mumford,

Actually, what happened is that Gerald told me that putting Gerbils in the car's muffler adds a lot of power. I bought a cage-full on the way down. He also told me about a trick to get them in the pipe - apparently if you put them in halfway and poke them with a stick, they will run into the muffler. I don't know how he discovered this trick.

Anyways, it actually seemed to HURT my performance. It was not until I ran the drag strip a few times that they became brittle and sputtered out, like so many catalytic-converter chunks. But then I ran an 11.76, so it's all good now.

WAR CALI SMACKTALKERS!

 

[Tenney]

I ordered a Habitrail from Hennessey and he sent me one of those clear plastic balls in a goldfish bowl box six months later. Now he won't refund my money (BTW - I apologized).

WAR INTERNET WHINERS!

 

[Gerald]

Mike you have it all wrong:
Here is how you get more power w/ a stock engine w/o adding something to it...

First I would ONLY buy white Gerbils.. that way, if performance isn't what you want, you can always pull them out of your exhaust and examine the "build up"

Second, Clipping their nails works very nicely, as they get excited, their little feet create a feeling of sheer ecstasy on th linings of your exhaust walls.

Thirdly, Mount small SUPERCHARGERS on each of the Gerbils back. That way, while the Gerbils are shoved up your exhaust pipe, you can extract extreme BLOWER HP numbers.

Fourthly, lets not forget clean up. There will be lots of Gerbil fodder on the floor just under the exhaust exit pipe.


Gerbil power forever

jurbull

 

[Mike Brunton]

Gerald,

Thanks for your tips... care to share how you learned so much about Gerbils and other topics?

Wayne,

You are telling me that I missed that mark by .06 seconds? DOH! DOH! DOH! I'd GLADLY go back to e-town and try again - I only made 6 or so runs, with more testing the limits of traction, I think I could have been in the 11.6's!

 

[Gerald]

Mike,
I would be more than happy to show you anytime. Just let me know when your at the next event and I'll show up w/ my walking gerbil habi-trail for you to pick out some shiny new fluffy gerbils. They';ll really help w/ your shifting by keeping you on your toes if you know what I mean...

 

[David Jenkins]

You guys are better then PMUM and Adelberg. I think everyone should stop talking the trash and show up at the Mopar Nationals in Columbus to see who the baddest is. I've heard all the he said she said b/s too long. Shut your pie holes and race. First one to the finish line wins? Or how about quickest et? I heard from someone that the cars in Texas are quick because there's always a 30 mph tail wind and your shoes will stick to the starting line. I also heard that the race tracks in Jersey are downhill!!!shut up and race, for our sake!peace,dj.