LETHAL 1000 dyno numbers and update....

[LTHL VPR]

OK. I will be the first one to admit that I promised dyno numbers earlier in the week. Since I don't want anyone to think I don't keep my word I will provide you with them now......at least what we achieved so far

Approximately 725 rwhp.............with only about 2-2.5 lbs of boost!!!! I think this combo will meet our goals with another 5 lbs boost!!Anybody else out there making this power level with about 2 lbs boost????? (he..he)

Now you are probably wondering what the heck is going on here, right......

As many of you know, APEX is committed to testing and improving components in order to meet their strict requirements before putting their stamp of approval on any products....

TESTING-
To give you an idea of HOW MUCH AIR/CFM my 550 c.i. motor requires, the pulley Paxton provides for the off-the-shelf kit only made 2.5lbs boost on my car (I was told it should make about 7.5 lbs. boost on a stock Viper). In the lower rpms that pulley on the supercharger actually restricted airflow (it made less power/torque with the supercharger than it did naturally aspirated...how often do you see that??).

We ordered a few different pulley combinations. They made some calculations, chose a new pulley, and had everything installed again on Saturday. Unfortunately I had to run to a dinner meeting that night, so we will be finishing up the final testing on Tuesday. Then, I can post the REAL RESULTS!!

Here are some things they have already improved upon with the 1st kit from Paxton:
1) Larger filter- They calculated that the K&N filter that came with the kit would not flow enough air for my 550 c.i. motor.

2) Re-routed air inlet. In an attempt to **** COOL AIR, they designed an alternate method to reroute cooler air from out of the engine compartment.

3) Some modifications/fabrication was required to retain the HUGE Fluidyne intercooler in an attempt to keep water temps down!

4) In order to prove/disprove the efficacy of the intercooler unit, they will be testing the flow restriction the intercooler causes first thing on Tues. morning. Depending on the restriction, we will decide whether or not to keep it.

Just wanted to give you an update....and tease you a little.

 

[CNTW84U]

Wayne, good luck ! I hope you get to to the magic number...
B

 

[LTHL VPR]

Thanks B!
We will have a much better idea of what my LETHAL 750 + supercharger is capable of with 6 lbs boost tomorrow morning!!

Stay tuned... I will post the results in the afternoon.
-Wayne

 

[Larry Macedo]

Unreal, Wayne! Can you post the dyno graph using only 2-2.5 lbs. of boost? Yet again, another impressive S/C number.

 

[J DAWG]

What are the base #'s for motor only.

 

[LTHL VPR]

J Smith-
The numbers for motor only were around 650 rwhp and 690 rwtq.

Larry-
I do have a couple of the dynos, but because my motor needed more air than the supercharger put out, I actually lost power (compared to NA) up to around 4500 rpms. In addition, it was worthless to tune because of the low boost numbers.
I will post the updated graphs with the motor putting out 6-7lbs boost tomorrow. I hope to be around 850 rwhp..... We are dyno tuning first thing in the morning.

Kent1- We are fine on fuel. As soon as we hit WOT, the A/F ratio immediately fell to 12:1. We have custom injectors made for us which eliminates the need for additional injectors and external fuel rails...

Thanks!
-Wayne

 

[HP]

J
Kent1- We are fine on fuel. As soon as we hit WOT, the A/F ratio immediately fell to 12:1. We have custom injectors made for us which eliminates the need for additional injectors and external fuel rails...

Thanks!
-Wayne

Who upgraded your injectors, RC ?

 

[LTHL VPR]

Hugh-
We have our own custom 'Viper style' injectors manufactured per our spec that are a direct replacement. We do not use RC or comparable companies that drill out the injector orofice to increase flow.

We want the engine to retain a stock look and use not extra injectors or external fuel rails.

 

[J DAWG]

Can this setup be a weekend project or would it have to be professionally installed?

John


ps - Will there be pics?

 

[LTHL VPR]

J-
Definitely not a weekend project.
I have a 550 c.i. stroker kit with a room full of high performance parts for the engine. Upgraded cooling system. Upgraded transmission. Upgraded drive-train. Goal was to create a COMPLETELY 'bullet proof' package that was made to handle 1000hp. The supercharger kit install was the easiest part of the total LETHAL 1000 package.

Hope this clarifies your question. We spent 1000's of hours testing all types of combinations for the LETHAL 750 package, and we have now spent considerable time with the supercharger kit installation and the APEX upgrades to the supercharger kit.
-Wayne

 

[J DAWG]

J-
Definitely not a weekend project.
-Wayne

Sorry, I did not realize you were speaking of motor and s/c. Now that is a complete package. I was thinking it was s/c by itself. Aren't yall the ones doing the Paxton as well. That's the setup I was hoping would be something one could do without taking the car in to a shop. Thanks for your replies.

John

 

[LTHL VPR]

J-
Sorry for the confusion...
If you can find a stock engine that puts out 725 rwhp with only 2-2.5 lbs of boost, please let me know......

I think the Paxton package could be installed by a knowledgeable person on a completely stock car/engine without too many issues. It is a complete kit and comes with very detailed instructions and pictures.

Take Care.
-Wayne

 

[Larry Macedo]

Hugh-
We have our own custom 'Viper style' injectors manufactured per our spec that are a direct replacement. We do not use RC or comparable companies that drill out the injector orofice to increase flow.

We want the engine to retain a stock look and use not extra injectors or external fuel rails.

What Wayne is saying is the RC, Kinsler and etc. are synthetic injectors. For instance, the 50 lb. injectors these companies sell are more like 42 lb. injectors to start.

 

[treynor]

I'm really interested to see how this project goes. There's no question that starting out with a more powerful N/A motor yields greater dividends when boost is introduced. The usual tradeoff is that a high-compression motor won't tolerate much boost before you have to pull timing or raise octane to prevent detonation.

In this case, the "Treynor SC calculator" (which is really just elementary physics, of course) says:

Normally aspirated = 650 RWHP / 14.7 PSI absolute = 44.2 RWHP / PSI.

So at 2 PSI boost we'd expect Wayne's car to make (14.7 + 2) * 44.2 = 738 RWHP, assuming of course it's running the same degree of timing advance. And hey, what do you know, that's pretty close.

At 7 PSI boost, assuming timing is preserved (a BIG assumption, of course), I'd expect to see 21.7 * 44.2 = 959 RWHP (!!). In the real world I don't think a 10.5-compression motor is going to tolerate 7 PSI of boost with full timing advance (unless you run C16 ), but 850-900 RWHP seems within reach. This will be a very fun project to monitor!

 

[LTHL VPR]

Larry-
You are correct. The injectors we use are manufactured from scratch. We can order them for almost any flow we want and they 'pop' in the stock intake without adding external fuel rails.

Treynor-
I agree, this project will be interesting. With 10.5 compression my car was making closer to 670-675 rwhp at a solid NA A/F ratio. Once all is said and done, the car will not have 10.5:1 compression...who said we weren't changing compression....not me....

Although I would love to see 44rwhp per lb. of boost, I don't think it will happen. Using the equation you have (if I am using it correctly, that is) that would mean the MASH's 550 c.i. Viper (575 rwhp/14.7= 39rwhp per lb of boost.) would be making about 1040rwhp with 12lbs of boost (he was actually seeing about 150rwhp less).

On a side note, since we did not tune the car on the dyno making 2-2.5 lbs boost because it would be useless, we had some serious timing retard programmed in to start with.
-Wayne

 

[Torquemonster]

Interesting project indeed! Can't wait to see results Wayne - your engines have a great reputation from what I hear.

re power going up proportionally to boost - Ben - I use a similar calculator for turbo's - but I've yet to see a supercharger system efficient enough to use boost as a power multiplier as an exact ratio over atmospheric once real boost starts... no flame but the blowers suffer a bit here.

I have seen plenty of turbo systems do it - but a turbo will always outperform a blower apple for apple - afterall they just use spent gases to run them and a good exhaust setup for a turbo has minimal backpressure - the turbo can seize solid and the engine will run fine.

re a blower system - when someone in the Viperworld is willing to use the UK ERL Aquamist water injection 3D mapped system properly you'll open up a whole new world - you heard it here first!! Torquie will not seem such a dorkie then

7psi and full timing on pump gas will be a cake walk ladies and gentlemen.... if the quench was tightened to 0.040" or a bit under - you could even run more compression as well - with less detonation risk than now! You simply get custom pistons - with high quench area and deeper valve reliefs to correct compression.... coat those beggers and the valves/chambers with a good ceramic coating and pick up even more! ...shhhhhh!!! we're into the secrets now.

There's always lots of reasons people shy away from water - most because of out dated information/early experiences that have nothing to do with current reality - but it's been good enough for Bentley Turbo's for a number of years now - it's about time the aftermarket in the USA caught up.... gentle prod no flame intended by the way - ask your grandfathers how Rolls Royce took their V12 Merlin Spitfires from 800hp to over 2000hp by end of WW2 - water played a key part.... but i digress

Timing retard is a choice born of other things not being up to the task... now THAT IS a flame but a friendly one ...ALL the tuners are guilty here so no one can claim the high ground!

How do you think HKS made over 1350hp on a 2.7 litre six? Full boost at 30 degrees timing on race fuel... same principle on lower boost.... but the safeguards have to be there - and water is the cheapest safeguard and less hassle than buying a bottle of booster every fill.

So while the results everyone is getting are fantastic in absolute power and for "no worries mate - fill it up and drive" - there's an empty spot on the "full timing at full boost timing at correct fuel/air ratios podium" here for someone to step up to.... grin.... think I'll run and hide now......I see something coming at me

Can't wait to build mine!

 

[LTHL VPR]

Torquemonster-
We have used the Aquamist system on cars before. On a car running with high boost, this could make a noticeable difference. We installed an aquamist system on my Viper about a year ago (pretty trick; it was hard to see) just to play around and see if it made a difference.

We thought about re-installing it on my Viper with the supercharger, but with only 6-7lbs of boost we thought the benefits may not be significant. I think we still have it though, and we may try it at a later date.

-Wayne

 

[Torquemonster]

Wayne - excellent! I'm impressed!

Is it the 3D mapped version? If so - I think you'll find worthwhile gains from running full timing at low boost.

The main requirement is a good knock sensor and a fully programable ECU that has enough tuning pockets (several hundred) to be useful.

I got 24 degrees timing with only 2D mapping at 9:1 on 18lb boost on unleaded 96/89 unleaded = 92.5 true octane. That was a conservative tune... and that was with a turbo so made solid boost from low rpm and 18psi by mid-range so is much more demanding than a blower is. It used hardly any water unless at the track. For an 8 litre V10 you may need 2 pumps and a jet optimised for each bank.

We tuned ours by me driving around a road course flat out while the tuner sat with the laptop in his lap and looked for any knock spots, then tuned them out as we went. We started on a traditional boost retard tune. We were able to randomly change timing and mixture in any 50rpm 3D pocket, and once we did that, we dialed in water over a preset boost, increased flow as boost rose, then started to advance the timing and lean the mix... picked up 15kph in the back straight doing that (grin).... we then found a couple of isolated 50rpm pockets that spiked (in mid-range) so adjusted those and it was ready for road duty. The engine was way below detonation point throughout the range - but 6 degrees more than it could stand without water on pump gas (and even at 18 degrees without water it was on the edge).

I do not think that many have got close to the potential of these units.... I know I didn't.... i just didn't want to pay for any more time as I was in in a hurry to just drive it home

I'll stick my neck out and say that I believe you could run 10.5:1 at 7psi with 30 degrees timing on pump gas. There'd be a few "tricks" and the water properly mapped/optimised - but when time is right - you and I'll probably have a chat about that. I feel a monster ASP coming on in my future....

 

[LTHL VPR]

All-
Looks like we will have to wait until tomorrow for my dyno numbers....

APEX dyno was completely full on Saturday tuning cars all day, and a couple were held over for today. Their dyno is booked up today for tuning again, so it looks like I will have to wait until tomorrow morning.
Until then.......
-Wayne