Lifter tick at start-up louder/longer when oil level topped off.

[PhoenixGTS]

I know this sounds crazy, but I am finding that if my oil level is topped off I get a pretty noisy clatter of lifter tick at start-up that lasts maybe 30 seconds if the car has been sitting for awhile, but if I have not checked the oil in awhile and it is down a quart or two the lifter tick is noticably better. Least week I noticed the lifter tick was gone, then when I checked the oil and added two whole quarts (yep I know i was delinquent in keeping an eye on it) and now the lifters are noisy as heck on start-up for a good 30 seconds or more. Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Any ideas as to what is going on?

 

[DEVILDOG]

Don't know the answer, however, maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are losing 1 to 2 quarts of oil. How often do you have to top off? Are you leaking oil or burning it?

 

[Eric H]

could it be you are burning oil, and the noise is actually octane ping and not lifter tick?...hmm i dunno

 

[PSilverGTS]

You may be adding too much oil. Over filling will cause the oil to bubble and cause poor circulation and oil starvation. Also, my '98 GTS takes 8 quarts of oil and as not lost or burned any oil in over 1500 miles. You should be changing your oil every 3 months or 3 thousand miles. How often are you changing your oil? I heard if your adding more than a quart every thousand miles you should have your engine checked out. Make sure you understand the how to read the level marks on the oil stick. Adding "two whole quarts" between oil changes would really concern me. My first car (in '87) was a pos '75 Chevy Monza 4 ****** my Mom surprised me with, that thing burned a quart of oil every week. I got stuck driving it for three nightmare years. After that, I hated most of the American cars made in the '70's, '80's and the '90's. It took foreign car makers to show America how to engineer and built automobiles again.

 

[PhoenixGTS]

Tick is only at very beginning of cold start-up after car has been sitting for some time. Doesn't do it when the oil is toward the bottom of the OK range on the dipstick. Engine blew 150 psi across the board in a simple compressions test, no smoke whatsoever, and when you floor it at night with headlights behind you there is no appreciable cloud of "smoke" visible. I did notice that the venting system puked a little bit of oil into the air box recently via the hose that goes into the air box on the driver's side. Perhaps it is a crankcase venting issue that is causing oil to disappear but I would think it would have to be smoking for that to occur. How much oil it uses is dependant upon how hard I drive it. No leaks and 31k miles by the way. Recently spun 415 rwhp/475rwtq on a Dyno Dynamics machine.

[EDIT=UPDATE] OK now the car is making me look bad. After sitting for 13-14 hours, started it this morning with oil topped off and no lifter tick at all. It must need 24 hours or more and looks like it could be related more to drain-down time than oil level. One of those "could not duplicate" diagnostic deals.

 

[joe117]

I wonder if it might have something to do with the old oil that is down 2qts compared to the old oil after two qts of fresh oil is added?

The topped off oil in the crankcase might be thicker having just had two new qts added?

That's more of a question than a reason.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

After sitting, a lifter could bleed down (an open valve spring will be trying to compress the lifter) by leaking the oil used as the hydraulic adjustment. Then when starting, it doesn't fill fast, either, so it ticks until oil pressure squeezes into the adjuster cavity. The ticking may come and go as the culprit lifter is or isn't under an open valve when the engine shuts down. It's a difficult area for the oil to keep clean, since there isn't any real "flow" and consequently oil crud can form and stay there. This might be one or more lifters.

Story #2: Your oil is really thick and doesn't leak out of the lifter. You are two quarts low, so you add some. The now thinned oil leaks out of lifter faster. Odds of this are low, (assuming you're using synthetic oil) and you change oil once in a while... which you do when you leak/burn/drip oil and then replace it.

 

[David]

I've only fired up my Viper a few times without pre-pressurizing the oil galleries. One time, after the car sat for two weeks, there was a bit of clatter for a second or two from the valves/lifters. There's no clatter if the car is quickly fired up after sitting for a week or less.

Here's what you can do if you don't wanna hear any lifter clatter. I've got an '01 -- and if you pull fuse #10 from fuse panel under the driver's left knee -- this will shut down both the fuel pump relay and the spark. After pulling this fuse, you can crank the car for 10 seconds. If you don't see any pressure on the oil pressure gauge, wait a minute (for the starter armature to distribute/dissipate heat just to be safe) and crank again for 10 seconds. I typically see 40 lbs of oil pressure. Then, I put fuse #10 back in -- and fire up the engine. No clatter, and the engine sounds happier firing up this way after a long sit. You've got a '98, so you should check to see which fuse will turn off your spark and fuel pump relay. On mine it was #10.

 

[Cris]

If you aerate your oil when hot the air will collect as the oil cools (solvency of air in the oil goes down with temp). This can and does cause start up ticking noise. An overfilled crankcase may result in aerated oil so the story indicated seems plausible.

But there are other possible causes (of course). Another possible cause would be if the follower adjustment is near the end of its travel, providing adjustment only after the valvetrain heats up (which is very quick for the exhaust due to valve stem length increase).

My guess is the latter, noting that a follower at the extreme end of travel is also more sensitive to aeration due to more volume of oil in the high pressure chamber, which could relate back to overfilled and aeration. Note that is also the direction that the adjustment will change due to valve seat or face wear.

 

[Jack B]

After I put in 1.7 rockers and heavy springs my car had the same problem of clattering after sitting for a while. I put in the Accusump for several reasons, but the primary reason was the issue of long periods of inactivity, then the dry start, the Accusump eliminated the lifter clatter, no matter how long the the car sits.

 

[99 R/T 10]

After sitting, a lifter could bleed down (an open valve spring will be trying to compress the lifter) by leaking the oil used as the hydraulic adjustment. Then when starting, it doesn't fill fast, either, so it ticks until oil pressure squeezes into the adjuster cavity. The ticking may come and go as the culprit lifter is or isn't under an open valve when the engine shuts down. It's a difficult area for the oil to keep clean, since there isn't any real "flow" and consequently oil crud can form and stay there. This might be one or more lifters.

Story #2: Your oil is really thick and doesn't leak out of the lifter. You are two quarts low, so you add some. The now thinned oil leaks out of lifter faster. Odds of this are low, (assuming you're using synthetic oil) and you change oil once in a while... which you do when you leak/burn/drip oil and then replace it.

So heres a quetion Tom, if there is cruddy oil stuck in the lifter, would it help to put in a quart of "Marvel mystery oil" in just before an oil change and in the new refill to help clean out the engine? I had asked a long time ago about using Gunk engine cleaner, but nobody really like that idea

 

[TOOOFST]

Mike,i've found some lifters after time bleed down and some don't.I don't agree with spinning the motor without priming it,I heard that short time without proper oiling leaves more scratches in cyl.walls than you could make in thousands of miles.
I think the good news is if your lifter(s) fail,you'll notice the loss of power some poping but no serious damage should occur.
PS.get an ext.warr.while shes still running good.
See ya in May.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Work done at major oil company chemical additive division showed that oil related deposits are for practical purposes not removeable by aftermarket treatments, engine flushes, special quarts, etc. Chemicals that were agressive enough to remove them also removed seals and gaskets... Many products are various forms of solvents and their low viscosity allows fluid to flow through restricted orifices, but does not clean any parts. Once the deposits are there, the only way to remove them is physically. Hence the need for adequate oil change intervals.

In regards to Accusumps, priming, or general pre-oiling, the fact is that these days, cars are driven to the junk yard and not towed. There are sufficient additives and start-up oil flow requirements that cranking, starting, and initial running does not "wear out" an engine. Please do not underestimate the performance of the lubricant additive systems; while you see the oil drain back into the pan, the anti-wear, anti-friction, and anti-corrosion additives are chemically "magnetic" (i.e. polar) in nature and stick to the metal surfaces to protect the hardware for the next startup. FinalGTS disagreed with me over the Accusump kit thinking I didn't think it was worthwhile; my opinion is that the Accusump will: provide oil for a few seconds under high-g turns, provide oil before cranking, quiet lifters upon startup, but will not: measureably extend the life of your engine or extend the life of your lifters (assuming appropriate oil change intervals.)

There may be some benefit over extended storage periods if the additives decompose; this would be an in-use version of the lubricant's "shelf life." If the storage period is truly extended, then a low viscosity oil (SAE 0W-xx) should be used to have the best startup flow characteristics.

Let's recall that cylinder walls, cam lobes, timing chains, rocker arms are all splash lubricated and pre-oiling doesn't eliminate "dry" starts anyway.

 

[Finally got it !]

Work done at major oil company chemical additive division showed that oil related deposits are for practical purposes not removeable by aftermarket treatments, engine flushes, special quarts, etc. Chemicals that were agressive enough to remove them also removed seals and gaskets... Many products are various forms of solvents and their low viscosity allows fluid to flow through restricted orifices, but does not clean any parts. Once the deposits are there, the only way to remove them is physically. Hence the need for adequate oil change intervals.

In regards to Accusumps, priming, or general pre-oiling, the fact is that these days, cars are driven to the junk yard and not towed. There are sufficient additives and start-up oil flow requirements that cranking, starting, and initial running does not "wear out" an engine. Please do not underestimate the performance of the lubricant additive systems; while you see the oil drain back into the pan, the anti-wear, anti-friction, and anti-corrosion additives are chemically "magnetic" (i.e. polar) in nature and stick to the metal surfaces to protect the hardware for the next startup. FinalGTS disagreed with me over the Accusump kit thinking I didn't think it was worthwhile; my opinion is that the Accusump will: provide oil for a few seconds under high-g turns, provide oil before cranking, quiet lifters upon startup, but will not: measureably extend the life of your engine or extend the life of your lifters (assuming appropriate oil change intervals.)

There may be some benefit over extended storage periods if the additives decompose; this would be an in-use version of the lubricant's "shelf life." If the storage period is truly extended, then a low viscosity oil (SAE 0W-xx) should be used to have the best startup flow characteristics.

Let's recall that cylinder walls, cam lobes, timing chains, rocker arms are all splash lubricated and pre-oiling doesn't eliminate "dry" starts anyway.

Do you sleep with quarts of oil around you. Your knowledge on this subject is amazing!!!

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Sleep, no, just was part of a good bunch of folks that were the Emeril Lagasse and Julia Child of fuels, lubricants and aftermarket products... bam! Was a great job(s) until one of those major oil company mergers and relocations led to a very generous separation package.