Motons -- Which ones for serious tracking?

[Vipera Russelli]

I’m seriously considering buying a set of Motons for my Gen III, have reviewed the previous posts on this board regarding Motons, and wanted to solicit some extra input from you track rats.

I’m looking at all the different varieties of Motons, and, well, I don’t know what I want specifically. What I do know that I want is to improve my lap times at VIR, which are currently at 2:17 for the Full Course. Considerations for me do NOT include ride quality, streetability or even the cool look of lowering, but rather only improving my ability to stick to the track, stay on the black and decrease my lap times. Period.

Kai posted the following options a while back:

“Different models of Motons:

Club Sport 2-way adjustable (bump, rebound), 7 positions
Motor Sport 2-way adjustable,(bump, rebound) 15 positions
Motor Sport 3 way adjustable (low speed bump, high speed bump, rebound) 15 positions
Motor Sport, 4 way adjsutable (low speed bump, high speed bump, low speed rebound, high speed rebound) 15 positions

The Club Sports are about $3500.
The Motor Sport 2 ways are quite a bit more. ($5000)
The 3 ways are about $6000
The new 4 ways are about $11,000

http://www.hrpworld.com”

So, assuming Motons are the way to go, the general question is this: which ones should I get?

I honestly don’t see myself spending $11K on shocks unless they are magic shocks of some sort, but are the advantages gained from moving up from the Club Sports to the 2-way or 3-way adjustables worth the increase in price? And just for grins and giggles, what about the advantages of the 4-way adjustable shocks? Can anyone explain the differences in terms of track performance? Is the performance different from model to model, or only the adjustability? I don’t see myself making a zillion adjustments all the time; I just want to get them set up for optimal track performance and forget them.

A more fundamental question, which I think I already know the answer to but wanted to ask anyway, is this: are the Motons, no matter which ones you buy, really worth the money for improved track performance? I’ve heard time and again that the stock suspension is damn good on the Gen III, but I’ve also read that the Motons are worth it. Does everyone with Moton track experience agree that this mod is money well spent?

 

[Kai SRT10]

I think that the money was well spent. I have the Moton Club Sports. They allowed me to go with stiffer springs, so the car is better supported, but the ride quality is actually more compliant than before. Cornering and grip are definitely a bit better with my Motons and stiffer springs. (I originally also had Comp Coupe sway bars, but I ended up putting the stock bars back on the car, as the Comp Coupe bars were a bit stiff and compromised overall grip somewhat.) In order to get the best out of Club Sports, you will need to spend a day at the track testing and tuning and trying various combinations. I spent a whole day at the track with my driving instructor and between the two of us, we were able to find settings that worked well and made a (slight, but repeatable) difference in track times.

For smoother surfaces, the club sport 2 way adjustables are probably all you would ever need. Unless the track is bumpy, there is no real advantage to differentiating between low and high speed bump settings. If you race on rougher surfaces, then three way shocks that allow adjustment of both high and low speed bump settings are probably worth it. I think that the 4 way shocks that allow for high and low speed rebound are overkill. All of the racers I have spoken with say that 4-ways are not worth getting, but that 3-ways are useful under some circumstances.

I am actually considering upgrading from the two way club sports to the more expensive 3 ways. This is primarily because I love open road racing, where I am going fast on public roads. The race I do in Nebraska, in particular, has very beat up and bumpy roads. It would be nice to be able to adjust the high speed bump rather soft, to better soak up road bumps, while leaving low speed bump firm for better handling. My local road course also has pretty rough pavement, so 3 ways might give me an advantage there as well.

So. In summary: I think Motons are a good upgrade. If I were doing it all over again, I would likely get the 3 way adjustables.

I spoke with the folks at Archer Racing recently about 3 ways, and he said that they were not available for the SRT-10. I've heard of people running the 3-ways, and the folks at 3R recommended 3-ways to me when I got the club sports, so I'm not sure what to believe. Archer said he would track down the definitive answer and get back to me. I will let folks know what he says.

 

[Janni]

How serious are you? What kind of trackside support do you have?

We've been racing for 3 years and are just now getting to the point where we are ready to start doing things like shock sweeps, etc. It's also taken that long to get the driver's but tcalibrated enoughthat he could feel these changes of 2 clicks, etc.

You need to be able to make a change and go right back out and test it. You need good timing equipment to validate your SOTP feel, etc.

The current Super Stock times for VIR are in the 2:12's at Viper Days on FULL STREET TIRES - not Cups. Prepared times - i.e. Ray Moore a 2001 GTS, STOCK shocks, cat back exhaust and no power adders ran a 2:11 last year.

You should spend that money on Viper Days and some good instruction. Folks that follow Ray Moore get faster than your shock change will get you - getting on track with drivers in like cars and discussing lines and doing lead/follow. etc will really help you. Your car - out of the box - and certainly with the mods you have - is capable of better times.

Unless you have some good trackside support - and are willing to document all your changes and start changing your alignment for each track - taking HOT temps each session, etc - you are not going to get more out of shocks than you would track time and instruction.

My $.02

 

[madman]

Get Clubs 2ways and you will actually feel the difference. They will get you the ability to stiff it on the track and soften it on the road. Then the rubber (and the driver's skills) get more important then anything else. 3ways would be a waste at this and any other point.

 

[Vipera Russelli]

Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like Club Sports are the way to go for VIR (which is very smooth, btw), if Motons are to be used at all.

Janni, I know there is much truth in what you have to say, and I do value your opinion very much. I know without a doubt that the driver of my Gen III, me, has ALWAYS been the biggest limiting factor in my track performance by far. I understand that seat time and good instruction is the best way to get better and believe me, I've been getting as much of that as I can, albeit all at VIR--I just love the place and the people there. I went to Viper Days in 2004 as my first track event and logged a 2:32 according to the Viper Days website archives and was pretty excited about even that. I'm pretty excited now to be doing 2:17s, and am really looking forward to coming in under 2:10, hopefully by sometime next year. The balance of 2004 after Viper Days was plagued with many Viper warranty issues for me, but in 2005 so far I've logged another 40 or so hours of seat time, half of which has been with instruction. And I signed up for Viper Days in 2005 but had to cancel due to work. I went to VIR last weekend, and I'm going back this weekend and the following weekend before calling it year, weather and work permitting. So to answer your question of how serious I am, I am very serious. I’m very serious about getting better and having fun. It’s me against me really and it’s more fun that I’ve ever had competing against myself.

Trackside support? HA! I wish! Maybe someday I’ll be that good and that kind of serious. In the meantime, I’m still just a newbie that usually comes in first in the intermediate group and last in the advanced group. But I’m getting better and hope to be running with the likes of Ray Moore and you in due time. And not as a result of this mod or that one, but really only as a result of having put in my time and learning everything I can from anyone who is willing to teach me by example or otherwise.

Still, even with all the emphasis on seat time and instruction and recognizing that that’s where I’ll get the biggest return, I still enjoy making mods to the car that might help me improve my results, even if only by small percentages. And I’m not alone, I note that there is just a small, albeit real, correlation between modifications/class and lap times at VIR as listed on the Viper Days site. Clearly the driver’s skill is the most important factor of all as you point out or there wouldn’t be so much overlap in lap times between the modifications classes. Still, mods appear to provide some return on investment and I can use all the help I can conger up, hehe. Life is short and I've been in a hurry all my life. I'm not looking for shortcuts, but rather stacking the odds in my favor any and every single way that I can.

2005 Viper Days VIR Results – you’ll recognized a handful of names from this board. Is tracking a Viper the greatest sport or what?

http://www.viperdays.com/virginia2005.html

By the way, what is taking HOT temps each session? Is that measuring the tire temperature after each run to ensure that you're using the entire tire surface most efficiently? I just love the fact that I have so much to learn. Green, Green, Green I am! But eager too!

 

[Janni]

Vipera -
You are headed in the right direction.... Let me give you an idea of what we're doing with the race car and there is no reason you couldn't do the exact same thing with a street car if you are serious - I know some of these same things are being done by the Viper Days Michelin Challenge Series participants....

1. We set up the car for each track. In order to facilitate this - we got a set of camber shims that replace the stock eccentrics and a different bold for the each end of the lower control arm (Archer racing in MN) This takes more time initially, but the alignment stays true and you CAN learn to do it yourself. We do our own alignments. Scales, scale pads, string , and a digital caster/camber gauge. Our right and left side cambers are different based on the track - i.e. VIR is a right turn track - so we have more camber on the left side.

2. Shock settings - we usually start in the middle and may make a one click adjustment either way depending on where we want what to happen. For example - if there is a heavy braking area where the car wants to go light, we may increase the rebound stiffness to help keep the ass end on the ground. We've also been told not to be afraid to go full soft on compression and work up or - full hard and keep softening until you start to bottom. Again we usually start somewhat in the middle.

3. Corner weighting. When we do our alignments - we also corner weight. Something you can also do yourself with dampers that are ride height adjustable. We also put ballast in the car when we do this so that the car is corner weighted like Henry's butt is in it as well as the coolsuit cooler, etc. It will change BOTH camber settings and corner weighting (slightly - but every advantage helps, right?).

4. At the track - we take HOT tire temps EVERY session with a recording tire temp gauge. To check to see if our alighment is right - we check the temps across the tread of the tire and aim for 10 degrees variation - but have gotten under 8. Often though - we're at 15 degrees. After coming in hot - during a session -we'll check and adjust tire pressures, too - based on the temps and how the car is feeling. The Challenge guys are all doing this now and some are working with Archer Racing to make the necessary adjustments based on the data.

We can also adjust things like wing angle, etc that you can't so I won't talk about that....

We've never missed a set up so badly that we've had to do a trackside alignment - and since it's more involved than I want to do trackside, I am not sure the crew chief gets paid enough anyway....

5. We shoot video during at least one run on Friday's open practice and review it that evening - together, and periodically I see things that can be improved upon. (We're party animals, aren't we?) Prior to going to the track - we review either our old tapes or any published hot laps in similar cars.

After each session we review the data - lap times being a part of that- but since we have the Motec - we compare with other drivers and look at specific sections and not be too concerned about traffic, TALK to other drivers with the same car, schedule lead / follow and see where they are getting better and where we are better.

We also review things together - and discuss where the car feels good and where it's not stable and how we can correct that - shock settings often get changed here. Can't put the power down coming out of Oak Tree? Let's soften compression. Back end getting squirelly in Hog Pen, let's stiffen rebound. Carroll Smith's "engineer in a pocket" or something like that is helpful. We then go out and test the changes - both SOTP and using the data - to see if it IS faster or if it just FEELS faster.

After the event - we record all the data and discuss what set up changes we would make for the next time and make notes. then - we make the appropriate set up adjustments. Each event, the car got closer to 25% at each wheel and we go closer on our initial setup - so we should be dead on for tracks that we will return to in 2006 - as this was a true learning year for us.

It's basically all a big game of recording data and making changes bsaed on the data. We've learned so much from the likes of running with Sonny Whelen and the McCann's - they have always been so helpful when we had previously battled an ill handling car - so it's ony fair that we share what (little) we know. Russell Myer at Archer Racing is a set up genius and being able to bounce stuff off of him in a cause / effect manner is invaluable. Competing with Jim Stout and the rest of the Viper Days / VRL crew has elevated our level and continued to elevate the series.

We're now seeing the same dogged pursuit of cranking out the last .1 second from the folks in Super Stock, Prepared and Modified. And best of all - we're seeing the same sharing of info and everyone helping everyone else go faster.

If you make it to VIR this year for Viper Days - we'd be happy to help - we'll be needing to improve our set up, handling and times from last year, as I am sure the bar will be raised once again!

Good fun!

 

[VIPER D]

don't forget about the springs


vd..

 

[Vipera Russelli]

Damn Janni! Now that is SERIOUS tracking! I appreciate your sharing that little snapshot into what really goes into serious car preparation, which clearly assumes, at that level anyway, that your driver is at 10/10 at least some of the time. That gives me a lot to think about and reassures me that I have do indeed have a world of information to learn. It also underscores how much more I have to learn in the skill department before I need to actually worry too much about all the mods that can make a 0.1 sec difference here or there. Do you think the Motons fall into that category or are they a better improvement than that? What about adjusting camber? Tiny improvement or large improvement? I think my Sport Cups were a large improvement and I'm hopping the Quaife will be as well, assuming it ever arrives.

 

[Janni]

I am a huge fan of the camber shims. The eccentrics can move and are subject to changing your alignment if you bump a curb, etc. With the shims - if your alignment shop is any good - they should be able to work with them. They are incremented so that by changing a shim, you change the camber about .15 to .2 degrees. Corner weighting is big, too - and you need the adjustability of the dampers for that from a ride height perspective. To be honest, that's where you get your best improvement (right off the bat) and then the compression and rebound adjustability is noce to be there to play with - but you have to play with it and everyone likes something different, handling wise.

Steve Loudin has the most experience with these items on an SRT - you might want to check with him. There were some issues with the Club Sports only have one adjustment ring and moving during events - so he went to a 2 ring locking mechanism.

The Quaiffe should be HUGE and should help you get the power down. It's a great diff and will also help you stay better planted in the corners.

Have you changed your lower shock mounts or gone to monoballs or a harder bushing for your control arms? Do you have an adjustable sway bar link front and rear? You need these for corner weighting and being able to zero out any preload in the sway bar. Then - might as well get greasable sway bar bushings to keep that free moving. These are good changes, too - esp as alignment becomes more crirital and less expensive than the Motons.

Things that make your car more adjustable will allow you to optimize the setup. When you get it right - you'll feel like you can drive the car anywhere, and make it do anything you want - that magic "slow" feeling when you are really just dialed in.

Enjoy and hope this helps.

 

[Dave's Big Brakes]

Here's my .02
Go to a 3 driving school, best money you can spend. They teach car control, which everyone needs. Then after learning how to make your car do what you want, the rest of what Janni said is 100 % correct.

I was 12 seconds faster at Willow Springs after doing a 3 day Bondurant High Performance school. Now that's horsepower

Again, my .02C

 

[Vipera Russelli]

I did Skip Barber's three-day racing school last summer and learned a lot. It was a little pricey, but loads of fun and educational too.

 

[Viper X]

Vipera Russelli,

I'm about with you, maybe behind in some areas and slightly ahead in others. I never thought trying to drive this car fast could be so challenging and so much fun. Great info from Janni. I have a two day Radical driving school coming up a Spring Mountain this month and have done several Viper Days Events, but clearly need much more seat time.

I was contemplating both the Club Sports and the Motor Sports. I wanted to be able to "cruise" the car softly on the street and "turn up" the shocks for the track. The Club Sports offer about 1/2 the adjustability that the Motor Sports do, so I went with the Motor Sports. They are simply awesome compared with stock, and have the 2 locking rings mentioned above.

I also had my first street / track alignment done to the car, corner weighted it, lowered it, removed the bump steer - which was nasty, added adjustable sway bar end links and tightened up the sway bars with harder bushings. I also put Eibach springs on and am trying to find good "all around" spring rates. My set up guy went with 650 fronts and 750 rears. The fronts are just too stiff for me on the street, so we are switching to 550s and we'll continue to work on spring rates. I think proper spring rates and a good track alignment are more important initially than the shocks you pick.

Janni, what spring rates do you like for street / track?

I added the Quaife some time ago for traction, but it works extremely well on the track too.

After the above suspension mods, the car felt like it could go anywhere, just as Janni said above. Unfortunatly, I'm now dealing with an engine problem but hope to be back at Willowsprings in January.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[Kai SRT10]

Vipera Russelli,


I was contemplating both the Club Sports and the Motor Sports. I wanted to be able to "cruise" the car softly on the street and "turn up" the shocks for the track. The Club Sports offer about 1/2 the adjustability that the Motor Sports do, so I went with the Motor Sports. They are simply awesome compared with stock, and have the 2 locking rings mentioned above.

Dan

Where did you buy your Moton motorsports?

 

[Viper X]

Kai,

I bought them from West Coast Viper.

Dan

 

[repiv]

Janni,
Even though I didn't start the thread, thanks for all of the good information. Couple of quick questions, where would I get the camber shims? Also, on the monoball control arms, does the entire arm have to be replaced ( or just the bushing, I think)? if so, who can supply these as well

 

[Janni]

vegas,
Archer Racing in Minnesota (John Archer and Jeff and Rhonda Johnson, owners) has everything you need.

I suspect you can get the monoballs can be pressed in to stock control arms - I've just bought the arm with them in there - so I am not sure - but based on the number of Comp Coupe owners and racers that get their parts from Archer Racing - they are the first stop for everything Comp Coupe and SRT for tracking.

218-727-4806

Happy to help. It's been quite a learning experience for us the past 7 or so years of tracking / racing..... and we're nowhere near the level of some of the pro teams. Of course, we're a little (wo)manpower limited - since it's just the 2 of us.

 

[VPRGTS]

Janni has provided a great deal of info that has cost her and Henry a lot of time and money to get. I think that is awesome. Thanks Janni.

That being said, be careful about getting too worried about getting into a situation where you are getting bogged down with car setup until you have reached the limits of what you have.

For someone to get into too much of this can get a little overwhelming. Especially without a pit crew (forget it). If car adjustment is your thing and what you like to do, have at it. If you just like to drive and hate to even change your own brake pads...beware of getting too much over your head and frustrated to the point where you not even having fun (which is why we are there, right).

I aligned my car when I put the Eibachs on 2 years ago. I have stock shocks (non ACR). That's it. I make no changes for different tracks. Maybe it's time I check to see if it is even still aligned properly.

I don't even screw around a lot with tire pressure. I do not take tire temps. Good ole fashioned air works for me, no nitrogen thanks.

I like to keep things simple. Low maintenance. I just like to drive.

That being said, I have driven SRT's with and without Motons. There is a big difference and it can make it more fun depending on your point of view.

An SRT without Motons will sway back and forth under heavy braking because the butt gets light and the suspension is a little soft. The brakes are damn good. I don't have that problem in my GTS because my brakes are nowhere near as good (stock). Additionally, the car will roll in the corner and the weight transfer can be pretty substantial in any two turns linked together without Motons.

If I had an SRT that I was going to put on the track, I would certainly do Motons (or something) for a more controllable car.

I personally would stay away from a lot of adjustments and set my car up with a neutrally aggressive alignment and leave it alone. There is too much in the car for me to improve my own skills without losing focus on something like bump and rebound settings, let alone tire pressures. It is just not my thing, maybe it's yours.

 

[FlyBryViper]

Ray would rather change cylinder heads at the track!
Just kidding Ray. Still amazed you & Kyle were at the banquet that night.