Motor Trend discusses controversy

[VENOM V]

Last night I was reading road tests on the older Z06 (2008-2009), as I've been thinking about buying one as a track car. Prices are very reasonable.

I ended up learning something that surprised the hell out of me. The older reviews I read did not rave about the car, in fact they said it was difficult to drive at the limit, twitchy rear end that wants to come around, Etc. Harsher criticism than I've read about the Gen V to be sure. It lost battles to other cars, Etc.

Then I read reviews on the 2011 Z06 with carbon ceramic brakes, magnetic selective ride, and MPSCs. It was car nirvana, they said. Rave reviews. It showed me that the C6 platform took years before the Chevy engineers got it right, 6 years since the C6 launch in fact for the Z06 and 4 years for the ZR1.

Chevy did not bulls eye the C6 out of the gate, just as SRT hasn't bulls-eyed the on track performance of the Viper. They are damn close, just need an iteration on tires and a suspension tweak, maybe brakes although I'm personally not excited about CCBs. Perhaps go to 19s on the front and go with bigger steel brakes. These changes are not hard to make. But whatever changes they decide to implement, I will be shocked if it's not world class performance within a year or two.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Curious, has anyone cancelled their order for a Gen 5 because it lost to the outgoing ZR1? Will anyone, with the means, not buy a Gen 5 they had planned to buy because of these tests? If not, none of this discussion will likely matter too much to SRT. Realistically people didn't not buy a Ferrari or Lambo because the Gen 4 Viper was faster.

 

[ViperSmith]

Curious, has anyone cancelled their order for a Gen 5 because it lost to the outgoing ZR1? Will anyone, with the means, not buy a Gen 5 they had planned to buy because of these tests? If not, none of this discussion will likely matter too much to SRT. Realistically people didn't not buy a Ferrari or Lambo because the Gen 4 Viper was faster.

Not I. I don't put as much stock in road tests as others do. The car is quick, quick as **** - far beyond what I will ever be able to approach.

Some have the "Viper shouldn't eve come in 2nd" line of thinking - but lets be honest, this isn't the 90's all over again. We are seeing an amazing time in performance vehicles where the limits of physics are coming into play.

The ZR1 set the record at Laguna after how many years of being out and tweaks? The SRT did what it did, besting a lot of cars its first run out. Excuses? Maybe, but lets be real here.

I ordered mine the first day banks were open and I can't wait to take delivery.

 

[Solid Red 98]

Curious, has anyone cancelled their order for a Gen 5 because it lost to the outgoing ZR1? Will anyone, with the means, not buy a Gen 5 they had planned to buy because of these tests? If not, none of this discussion will likely matter too much to SRT. Realistically people didn't not buy a Ferrari or Lambo because the Gen 4 Viper was faster.

I totally agree. There is so much more to owning a car than a few seconds set at an arbitrary limit set by a particular driver on a given track on a certain day. We need to see Gen V's out there long enough for for a good number of people to truly wring these cars out. All this freaking out about the driving traits of super early production cars on a new platform relative to a thoroughly vetted car is a tad silly. I drive a Gen II Viper; there are plenty of faster cars out there these days. I could give a rats...How much time do ANY non track and even track rat cars spend at the limit? This is already a great world class car with a special allure. Those who have orders in should enjoy the crap out their cars. I get the impression that we will only be satisfied with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ygE01sOhzz0#t=8s

 

[Policy Limits]

^^^AMEN^^^ (& LMFAO)

 

[TrackAire]

Last night I was reading road tests on the older Z06 (2008-2009), as I've been thinking about buying one as a track car. Prices are very reasonable.

I ended up learning something that surprised the hell out of me. The older reviews I read did not rave about the car, in fact they said it was difficult to drive at the limit, twitchy rear end that wants to come around, Etc. Harsher criticism than I've read about the Gen V to be sure. It lost battles to other cars, Etc.

Then I read reviews on the 2011 Z06 with carbon ceramic brakes, magnetic selective ride, and MPSCs. It was car nirvana, they said. Rave reviews. It showed me that the C6 platform took years before the Chevy engineers got it right, 6 years since the C6 launch in fact for the Z06 and 4 years for the ZR1.

Chevy did not bulls eye the C6 out of the gate, just as SRT hasn't bulls-eyed the on track performance of the Viper. They are damn close, just need an iteration on tires and a suspension tweak, maybe brakes although I'm personally not excited about CCBs. Perhaps go to 19s on the front and go with bigger steel brakes. These changes are not hard to make. But whatever changes they decide to implement, I will be shocked if it's not world class performance within a year or two.

Those earlier Z06's had some of the worst factory tires money could buy for track use. If you put sport cups on any high performance vehicle that had standard or run flat high performance "street" tires it will totally change the handling of the car. Also the first couple of years that the C6 Z06 was out it had very intesting brake issues with hoses breaking, stability control overheating the brakes, etc.

Regarding the shock options of the Carbon Edition, high end aftermarket coilovers will not be embarrassed by the magnetic shock option on the track...maybe quite the opposite.

I would buy a pristine 2008 unit, add better brake pads, brake hoses, coilovers, track tires and monoballs and end up with a track demon.....for probably a lot less than a carbon edition, like $15k to $20k less. If you're really going to push the car hard, maybe add some additional cooling for the engine oil and the trans/diff. You would still have enough left over for a very nice enclosed car hauler.

Cheers,
George

 

[VENOM V]

Good solid info George, thank you. I've got a few options I'm toying with, I do like the idea of upgrading an older Z06

 

[09 Venom]

why does it matter since every single person who posted in this thread cant come no wheres near the time randy probst recorded...in either car.

 

[Simms]

I lasted 2 minutes and 16 seconds and lost interest with that video...​

 

[eucharistos]

Grammar? ...

i've been told that these days, most grade schools don't correct that and some accept it as correct

 

[redtanrt10]

why does it matter since every single person who posted in this thread cant come no wheres near the time randy probst recorded...in either car.

What's you definition on "no wheres near"? I'll be there with a number of SoCal members 6/28-30 at a rare day at LS. They'll lift the sound limit for an HPDE event from 92 db to 105 db, like they allow the manufactures and magazines. Come out and see what those old Gen IV's can do in the hands of amateurs. Mike

 

[v10enomous]

Agreed.... I'm looking at the smile factor... For what it's worth do you see the look on the face of everyone who gets behind the wheel of a GenV Vettes ride like grocery getters...

I totally agree. There is so much more to owning a car than a few seconds set at an arbitrary limit set by a particular driver on a given track on a certain day. We need to see Gen V's out there long enough for for a good number of people to truly wring these cars out. All this freaking out about the driving traits of super early production cars on a new platform relative to a thoroughly vetted car is a tad silly. I drive a Gen II Viper; there are plenty of faster cars out there these days. I could give a rats...How much time do ANY non track and even track rat cars spend at the limit? This is already a great world class car with a special allure. Those who have orders in should enjoy the crap out their cars. I get the impression that we will only be satisfied with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ygE01sOhzz0#t=8s

 

[BlackSnake99]

Agreed.... I'm looking at the smile factor... For what it's worth do you see the look on the face of everyone who gets behind the wheel of a GenV Vettes ride like grocery getters...

Beating Corvettes makes me smile.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Beating Corvettes makes me smile.

You'll need a Gen IV to do that.......Sorry couldn't resist.....Now back to the scheduled thread program......

 

[BlackSnake99]

You'll need a Gen IV to do that.......Sorry couldn't resist.....Now back to the scheduled thread program......

Or a Roe GTS.

 

[Viper Grenade]

Viper got its ass kicked by the ZR1, end of story. SRT had better "bring it" next go round. C7ZR1 isn't going to play nice if the rumors are true.

 

[Jack B]

How close to the Probst times do you think the best in the group will run?

What's you definition on "no wheres near"? I'll be there with a number of SoCal members 6/28-30 at a rare day at LS. They'll lift the sound limit for an HPDE event from 92 db to 105 db, like they allow the manufactures and magazines. Come out and see what those old Gen IV's can do in the hands of amateurs. Mike

 

[Ev1E9]

Viper got its ass kicked by the ZR1, end of story. SRT had better "bring it" next go round. C7ZR1 isn't going to play nice if the rumors are true.

I've heard rumors on the Corvette Forum that there is no guarantee there will be a C7 ZR1.

 

[I Bin Therbefor]

This isn't the first time that the Viper team been "bitten" by letting the news media at development cars. Remember the infamous fried egg pictures? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Second, IMHO, it was Pirelli that was beaten by Michelin. A correction appears to be in the in process stage by Pirelli introducing an equivalent barely street legal tire for the Viper to match the barely street legal Michelin tires that are an option on the ZR1.

 

[SlateEd]

I agree with everyone here who has said this was a no-win situation waiting to happen... Beating the ZR1 would have been a "so what?" and losing to it (barely) has created an internet storm that probably won't influence sales too much, but certainly raises the profile of the ZR1.

the truth is, a 4 yr old sorted car SHOULD beat a brand new pre-production car... someone here called the ZR1 "antiquated" which I hope was tongue in cheek - it's clearly the most evolved, most exotic corvette ever - far from antiquated. The numbers (as this video reinforced) are almost identical in HP/TQ and the ZR1 has been kicking around, getting fine tuned by engineers and getting driven by magazine test drivers for a few years. None of us can guess how much improvement the GenV times will show after 4 years.

And none of us has really gotten to the point here that the range of capability in Corvettes is so broad - a base model C6 (most of them) would have no shot against the "base" GenV Viper... I'd be willing to bet that my GenIII would smoke a base model C6 and will still be able to smoke the base model C7.
There isn't as much variation from the "base" version of the Viper up to the ACR, but there IS a difference. (for example a stock GenIV 'vert is not breaking any Ring records)

So having said that: comparing a "base" Viper for GenV that is not even fully sorted for production with the top-of-the-line-of-all-time Corvette is a no-win situation.

I do take some comfort in knowing that GM needs to turn out the best car they've ever produced just to squeeze a win over a pre-production Viper.
and when the C7 comes out, MotorTrend will put the base model up against cars like the Lotus Evora in comparison tests and we can spend some of our internet image-bashing energy reminding each other that the vast majority of 'vettes are not even even in the same class.

 

[Caesar!]

I saw the MT test and watched it again, and then saw the magazine on the shelves. So? The o to 60 and 0 to 100MPH are identical???? Really??? The quarter mile identical? BS!!!!

Test them again and again. How much seat time did any driver have in the new Viper?
What did he say in the video "It was a little scary" Why? Because it was unstable? Or because he couldnt push it to it's limits like the Vette?

I'm sorry... Whoever organized the Viper to be showcased by MT like that?

They should have had Drivers appointed from Chevy and one from Mopar.

What did they say on the show at the begginning. Were gonna see which car has the biggest Balls?
Then get drivers that can beat the Sh!! out of those machines extracting the FULL potential of the beasts.
Drive it like you stole it baby!!! LOL

Another test better be done fast! This is unacceptable!!!
Drive the car to the limits.
Or don't test them at all.

 

[AbsolutHank]

I've heard rumors on the Corvette Forum that there is no guarantee there will be a C7 ZR1.

There's never a guarantee, but with 640+ hp Vipers in showrooms for the next 5 years to compete with, they'll have something. I suspect the Z06 will be odd man out, particularly with the supercharged LT4 engine already being leaked months ago in CAD drawings online. The base C7 Z51 will almost outperform the C6Z, so why add another "in between" model?

 

[Makara]

I saw the MT test and watched it again, and then saw the magazine on the shelves. So? The o to 60 and 0 to 100MPH are identical???? Really??? The quarter mile identical? BS!!!!

Why is it BS? The peak hp is about the same, the weight is pretty close, and the ZR1 has a better torque curve. Are you expecting the viper to win this one because it has magic viper mojo?

 

[madninjaskillz]

I agree with everyone here who has said this was a no-win situation waiting to happen... Beating the ZR1 would have been a "so what?" and losing to it (barely) has created an internet storm that probably won't influence sales too much, but certainly raises the profile of the ZR1.

the truth is, a 4 yr old sorted car SHOULD beat a brand new pre-production car... someone here called the ZR1 "antiquated" which I hope was tongue in cheek - it's clearly the most evolved, most exotic corvette ever - far from antiquated. The numbers (as this video reinforced) are almost identical in HP/TQ and the ZR1 has been kicking around, getting fine tuned by engineers and getting driven by magazine test drivers for a few years. None of us can guess how much improvement the GenV times will show after 4 years.

And none of us has really gotten to the point here that the range of capability in Corvettes is so broad - a base model C6 (most of them) would have no shot against the "base" GenV Viper... I'd be willing to bet that my GenIII would smoke a base model C6 and will still be able to smoke the base model C7.
There isn't as much variation from the "base" version of the Viper up to the ACR, but there IS a difference. (for example a stock GenIV 'vert is not breaking any Ring records)

So having said that: comparing a "base" Viper for GenV that is not even fully sorted for production with the top-of-the-line-of-all-time Corvette is a no-win situation.

I do take some comfort in knowing that GM needs to turn out the best car they've ever produced just to squeeze a win over a pre-production Viper.
and when the C7 comes out, MotorTrend will put the base model up against cars like the Lotus Evora in comparison tests and we can spend some of our internet image-bashing energy reminding each other that the vast majority of 'vettes are not even even in the same class.

It was the worst of bets to make by SRT. We all can agree on that I think. What I'm curious about is "Why?". What was their reasoning for doing so? I don't agree with the 'any publicity is good publicity' statement.

Also, let me play devil's advocate again for a second and say, no one expecting the Viper to beat the Zr-1 is a load of bs. Where were the "lesson's learned" from the Zr-1 and GenIV ACR testing? There are those making excuses after the fact and going back to research old C6 records and reviews etc. If you're going to buy a GenV, who cares? Justify your decision for the right reasons. Our Viper, in any form, looks better than the vette in any form.

 

[ViperGTS]

run craps...

 

[SnakeBitten]

SlatED how is losing to the Vette by 2+ seconds consistently at Laguna equate to the Viper "barely" losing as you state? It also lost by 1 second from 0-150mph. That is a sound beatdown and no amount words can make this a "close" battle. The numbers plainly show the Viper, as SRT sent it, is not in the same performance league as the ZR1. On paper it is but on track it sure ain't.

Everyone initially expected the Viper to win this comparo especially after the SRT hype. Now that it lost badly many are apologizing for the Viper and SRT now by shifting their outlook from expecting it to win to now not expecting it to win out the box because.....[insert excuses here].

Hey we defend what we love and even if it/they fall short of expectations we instinctively find other ways to defend it/them. But reality is still reality even with rose colored glasses on. The Viper got snuffed period. No ones to blame but SRT for that. It sounds like they got the message and are going to correct the problem. I can't wait to see the improved Vipers numbers.

 

[09 Venom]

Gee, with so many disappointed forum members here guess there wont be much of a wait for when I trade in my '13 for when the genV ACR comes out. I thank you in advance

 

[commandomatt]

Gee, with so many disappointed forum members here guess there wont be much of a wait for when I trade in my '13 for when the genV ACR comes out. I thank you in advance

You may be right. You may also find that the 2013 turns out to be the model year not to own as SRT will keep refining the Gen V and the '13 may be the one considered released a bit to soon, before everything was worked out.....happens all the time with 1st year models.

Matt

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I didn't listen to the critics 15 years ago and I wouldn't listen to them today. All I wanted 15 years ago was a big motor and big tires, gimme that and I'll make it go. That is still all I want today...minus the nannies.

 

[BlackSnake99]

You may be right. You may also find that the 2013 turns out to be the model year not to own as SRT will keep refining the Gen V and the '13 may be the one considered released a bit to soon, before everything was worked out.....happens all the time with 1st year models.

Matt

Remember the '68 Corvette?