USAF BAD ASP
Enthusiast
I'm looking for a used 5 pt system for my rt. 1 or 2 doesn't matter. any color ok. even if it's not a direct bolt on system, I can make it work. email me if you've got one you wanna clear out, a picture too if you've got one
need 5pt harness
- Thread starter USAF BAD ASP
- Start date
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
A couple warning signs with this post.
Used? I have a set of used 5 points that I just haven't bothered to throw away. Maybe I'll use them for decorations somehow but I wouldn't sell them to anybody to use in their car. They're more than two years old and probably wouldn't pass tech anyway.
Make them work? That's what Dale Earnhardt did.
What are you planning to do with them?
Used? I have a set of used 5 points that I just haven't bothered to throw away. Maybe I'll use them for decorations somehow but I wouldn't sell them to anybody to use in their car. They're more than two years old and probably wouldn't pass tech anyway.
Make them work? That's what Dale Earnhardt did.
What are you planning to do with them?
kverges
Enthusiast
I am going to chime in on the 2 year thing. I have 10 year old belts in my '93 that have been in the car since day one. They see no UV (car is garaged) no solvents and I carefully inspect them for fraying or other visible signs of decay or weakness.
Other than "that's what the manufacturer says," who has any SOLID data for deterioration of strength on belts over 2 years old? FYI, I think the SCCA GCR allows 4 or 5 years between belt changes, anyway.
Also consider that FAA does not require belt changes based on age; DOT does not require it; when was the last time you tossed all of your trailer tie-downs at 2 years? (and they DO see abuse via solvents and abrasion).
Sorry, but without meaningful and unbiased data that belt strength is impaired by age alone, I see no problem with using well cared-for belts for many more than 2 years. On the other hand, belts that get a lot of use and abrasion might need to be replaced sooner than 2 years.
And I do have some appreciation for g forces in racing. I would dare say the tie-down forces are much greater and those belts last just fine.
If you just use the belts to autocross, then I would have no hesitation with used belts. I am in fact aware of no SCCA age spec for A-X belts, as OEM belts are allowed.
Just my opinion of course.
Other than "that's what the manufacturer says," who has any SOLID data for deterioration of strength on belts over 2 years old? FYI, I think the SCCA GCR allows 4 or 5 years between belt changes, anyway.
Also consider that FAA does not require belt changes based on age; DOT does not require it; when was the last time you tossed all of your trailer tie-downs at 2 years? (and they DO see abuse via solvents and abrasion).
Sorry, but without meaningful and unbiased data that belt strength is impaired by age alone, I see no problem with using well cared-for belts for many more than 2 years. On the other hand, belts that get a lot of use and abrasion might need to be replaced sooner than 2 years.
And I do have some appreciation for g forces in racing. I would dare say the tie-down forces are much greater and those belts last just fine.
If you just use the belts to autocross, then I would have no hesitation with used belts. I am in fact aware of no SCCA age spec for A-X belts, as OEM belts are allowed.
Just my opinion of course.
Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder
Enthusiast
Harness testing is done by some mfr's. The data is not published to my knowledge.
In road course applications It seems wise to error on safety. I agree 2 yrs. is quite conservative for occasional track use, but what is your life worth? Dale Earnhardt is an example of how not to respect safety equipment.
My opinion is that most suppliers products are good for 5 or more years of driving school use if the harness is not exposed to UV, solvents, and not stretched from high g forces or a hard impact. For Autocross only use, 10 yrs, 20yrs, 50yrs, seem okay based on low risk of a high g impact.
Road course driving schools, races, etc.
We should learn from Dale Earnhardt's terrible accident and use the best safety equipment available.
Buy high quality, full face helmets (expensive), and restraints. Install a fire suppression system, use a racing suit .
VCA members get nice discounts for high quality safety equipment from Helmet City, Part Rack, etc.
Using the cheapest, obsolete or min. safety equipment shows Darwin's theories are alive and well.
In road course applications It seems wise to error on safety. I agree 2 yrs. is quite conservative for occasional track use, but what is your life worth? Dale Earnhardt is an example of how not to respect safety equipment.
My opinion is that most suppliers products are good for 5 or more years of driving school use if the harness is not exposed to UV, solvents, and not stretched from high g forces or a hard impact. For Autocross only use, 10 yrs, 20yrs, 50yrs, seem okay based on low risk of a high g impact.
Road course driving schools, races, etc.
We should learn from Dale Earnhardt's terrible accident and use the best safety equipment available.
Buy high quality, full face helmets (expensive), and restraints. Install a fire suppression system, use a racing suit .
VCA members get nice discounts for high quality safety equipment from Helmet City, Part Rack, etc.
Using the cheapest, obsolete or min. safety equipment shows Darwin's theories are alive and well.
ewave
Enthusiast
Hey Fred,
Just curious: perhaps you advocate replacing the harnesses every time you replace your brake pads... I mean, what's your life worth?
Come to think of it, maybe to be on the really safe side I should replace the whole car after each DE. I've heard of wheels and steering racks cracking due to metal fatigue. hahah!
Just ribbing yah.
Just curious: perhaps you advocate replacing the harnesses every time you replace your brake pads... I mean, what's your life worth?
Come to think of it, maybe to be on the really safe side I should replace the whole car after each DE. I've heard of wheels and steering racks cracking due to metal fatigue. hahah!
Just ribbing yah.
USAF BAD ASP
Enthusiast
I was looking for a set cheap that wasn't track legal, but would be fine for my regular road driving. (don't plan on tracking the viper) I would inspect the harness exactly how we inspect aircraft ones, but beyond that the 2 year thing is only for professionals who can't properly inspect a belt. Ewave is right, stock belts stay in your car forever, and are thinner with less points. Yet 15 years down the road on a daily driver with 200k miles they will protect you like day one. A 5 point has thicker material, and well, has 5 points and you say every 2 years? That's a legal thing to keep manufacturers out of court from some idiot running with frayed, dried out belts that are 20 years old and are falling apart.
I would MUCH RATHER drive with a 5 year old 5 point in good shape, then with my stock belt. Hands down no contest... that's all I wanted.
I would MUCH RATHER drive with a 5 year old 5 point in good shape, then with my stock belt. Hands down no contest... that's all I wanted.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by USAF BAD ASP:
I would MUCH RATHER drive with a 5 year old 5 point in good shape, then with my stock belt.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, mine are pretty beat. The car was a school car. They might be fine for what you want but they wouldn't look too good in that sweet ride. A new set of Simpsons would look great and don't cost very much. www.simpsonraceproducts.com
I would MUCH RATHER drive with a 5 year old 5 point in good shape, then with my stock belt.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, mine are pretty beat. The car was a school car. They might be fine for what you want but they wouldn't look too good in that sweet ride. A new set of Simpsons would look great and don't cost very much. www.simpsonraceproducts.com
Points of FACT to consider:
The FIA tested the ACR-GT2 belts, 1-year old, and they FAILED. Hmmm...no one testing, eh? SFI and SNELL (to name 2) test motorsports equipment. With legitimate load-tests. Crash sleds, crash dummies, and more.
Road-racing specs for 165mph are NOT the same as hiway 55 mph !
165 mph is 3 times 55 mph. But does 165-mph impart 3x the force of 55-mph? Nope! NINE TIMES the force ! {SQUARE of the delta}
Does a 220 mph F1-International superlicence driver harness NEED replacement every year? YES ! (55 mph vs 220mph = 16X the force!)
Those hiway DOT-belts are meant to protect the weakest link. At hiway speeds. Period.
Comparing an aircraft and a race car harness is, well, ludicrous. The harness in an aircraft is intended to keep you in the SEAT during negative lateral Gs. So you can maintain control. It is NOT meant to save your life in a crash. You are simply DEAD. Aircraft Pilots never walk away from a crash and say "THANK GOD FOR THAT HARNESS...WHEW!" Viper Pilots have. And every weekend in the USA alone, Tech-inspected harnesses, 2-5 years old depending on the venue, save a race car driver.
The stitches weaken.......the adjusters weaken.....the buckles weaken...... my Shroth belts after 5 years were TRASH! Would they save me at hiway speeds? probably. Keep me in my autocross seat? No Doubt? Did the SCCA tech inspector reject 'em? YUP!
If you want to drive above NHTSA-DOT speed limits, Buy the best helmet you can afford........and the best harness, too.
The epistle according to JonB
The FIA tested the ACR-GT2 belts, 1-year old, and they FAILED. Hmmm...no one testing, eh? SFI and SNELL (to name 2) test motorsports equipment. With legitimate load-tests. Crash sleds, crash dummies, and more.
Road-racing specs for 165mph are NOT the same as hiway 55 mph !
165 mph is 3 times 55 mph. But does 165-mph impart 3x the force of 55-mph? Nope! NINE TIMES the force ! {SQUARE of the delta}
Does a 220 mph F1-International superlicence driver harness NEED replacement every year? YES ! (55 mph vs 220mph = 16X the force!)
Those hiway DOT-belts are meant to protect the weakest link. At hiway speeds. Period.
Comparing an aircraft and a race car harness is, well, ludicrous. The harness in an aircraft is intended to keep you in the SEAT during negative lateral Gs. So you can maintain control. It is NOT meant to save your life in a crash. You are simply DEAD. Aircraft Pilots never walk away from a crash and say "THANK GOD FOR THAT HARNESS...WHEW!" Viper Pilots have. And every weekend in the USA alone, Tech-inspected harnesses, 2-5 years old depending on the venue, save a race car driver.
The stitches weaken.......the adjusters weaken.....the buckles weaken...... my Shroth belts after 5 years were TRASH! Would they save me at hiway speeds? probably. Keep me in my autocross seat? No Doubt? Did the SCCA tech inspector reject 'em? YUP!
If you want to drive above NHTSA-DOT speed limits, Buy the best helmet you can afford........and the best harness, too.
The epistle according to JonB
ewave
Enthusiast
The real point here is that AGE is not a good indication of the condition of seat belts. I'm sure that you would agree that there are plenty of two year old harnesses that are shot, while I'm sure that you could also find some 10 year old ones that are still as good as new.
The Darwinian thing here is to use your intelligence to look at more than one arbitrary parameter (age), and take many factors into account when judging the useful condition of racing harnesses. But Hey, I don't sell Harnesses, so you probably shouldn't trust me. LOL!
The Darwinian thing here is to use your intelligence to look at more than one arbitrary parameter (age), and take many factors into account when judging the useful condition of racing harnesses. But Hey, I don't sell Harnesses, so you probably shouldn't trust me. LOL!
ewave
Enthusiast
You know I really want to know where this "two year" thing came from. Sounds to me like the result of lobbying and legislation from the belt manufactures.
Think about it. Seat belts in daily driven cars don't need to be replaced every two years, or even every ten years.
The material that the belts are made out of will last indefinitely if they aren't contaminated with solvents, or deteriorated with UV light.
I'd take a set of 10 year old carefully inspected 5 point harnesses over the stock set of belts in a Viper any day... ESPECIALLY if I were to be in an accident.
"Two Year" is legislation, NOT reality!
Hey-- what do I know?.. this is just an opinion...
Think about it. Seat belts in daily driven cars don't need to be replaced every two years, or even every ten years.
The material that the belts are made out of will last indefinitely if they aren't contaminated with solvents, or deteriorated with UV light.
I'd take a set of 10 year old carefully inspected 5 point harnesses over the stock set of belts in a Viper any day... ESPECIALLY if I were to be in an accident.
"Two Year" is legislation, NOT reality!
Hey-- what do I know?.. this is just an opinion...
Jerry Scott[CO]
Viper Owner
I agree with ewave. There's nothing wrong with belts that are two years old. I fly an aerobatic plane that has 5 point belts that are 10 years and they are just fine, and the FAA does not require their replacement.
Jerry Scott
Jerry Scott
USAF BAD ASP
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonB - PartsRack:
}
Comparing an aircraft and a race car harness is, well, ludicrous.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are in fact, wrong. Any wear whatsoever is signs for rejection. You might say our harnesses aren't meant to withstand as much as an 160 mph crash. Most of the time that's true. (see story below) Where you're wrong is with you assuming because of that, we have lower standards. We don't. Our standards are probably the same as any track requires. Look in the cockpit of a Boeing Jet. You'll find nice 5 pt systems in great shape that are inspected regularly... for a boeing that will NEVER pull any G's. Please write a letter to the FAA and tell them that's unesessary. My point is: I can properly inspect an aircraft harness to airworthy standards, therefore, I can properly determine if a 5pt is safe for my viper. Because I would apply the same standards to my viper system. I wouldn't put me or my loved ones in any danger with worn, or damaged harnesses.
now my story: i used to do volunteer air search and rescue a few years back. We once searched days for a missing plane. Finally found it out in the hills of TN. Guy by himself got lost in clouds and flew into side of hill. He hit a large tree at a pretty good speed. He was wearing his lap belt only, not his shoulder harness. his head whipped forward and hit his instruments, crushing his skull. Though I can't say for sure, his full 5pt system would have given a MUCH better chance of him living. Therefore, comparing aircraft harnesses to a harness for my daily driving is PERFECTLY legit... can I get those hiflo cats for half price now?
ps, i know this post is long, but i'll explain myself. When I said I could 'make them work' i didn't mean I could use a long sheet metal screw into the carpet to hook it up. I meant I could say, machine a nice bracket to help the install since I have a full metal shop, and materials at my disposal. and dale didn't 'make it work' ... he died
}
Comparing an aircraft and a race car harness is, well, ludicrous.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are in fact, wrong. Any wear whatsoever is signs for rejection. You might say our harnesses aren't meant to withstand as much as an 160 mph crash. Most of the time that's true. (see story below) Where you're wrong is with you assuming because of that, we have lower standards. We don't. Our standards are probably the same as any track requires. Look in the cockpit of a Boeing Jet. You'll find nice 5 pt systems in great shape that are inspected regularly... for a boeing that will NEVER pull any G's. Please write a letter to the FAA and tell them that's unesessary. My point is: I can properly inspect an aircraft harness to airworthy standards, therefore, I can properly determine if a 5pt is safe for my viper. Because I would apply the same standards to my viper system. I wouldn't put me or my loved ones in any danger with worn, or damaged harnesses.
now my story: i used to do volunteer air search and rescue a few years back. We once searched days for a missing plane. Finally found it out in the hills of TN. Guy by himself got lost in clouds and flew into side of hill. He hit a large tree at a pretty good speed. He was wearing his lap belt only, not his shoulder harness. his head whipped forward and hit his instruments, crushing his skull. Though I can't say for sure, his full 5pt system would have given a MUCH better chance of him living. Therefore, comparing aircraft harnesses to a harness for my daily driving is PERFECTLY legit... can I get those hiflo cats for half price now?
ps, i know this post is long, but i'll explain myself. When I said I could 'make them work' i didn't mean I could use a long sheet metal screw into the carpet to hook it up. I meant I could say, machine a nice bracket to help the install since I have a full metal shop, and materials at my disposal. and dale didn't 'make it work' ... he died
Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder
Enthusiast
Do not consider used/old restraints unless you consider your life useless.
A 2 yr old harness in a car used for road racing or open track events may have been stressed from g-forces making the seams and fasteners weak.
If you have not been a driver or passenger at an open track event you do not have an appreciation for the energy or stress on the restraints.
I say, buy the best harness and helmet.
A 2 yr old harness in a car used for road racing or open track events may have been stressed from g-forces making the seams and fasteners weak.
If you have not been a driver or passenger at an open track event you do not have an appreciation for the energy or stress on the restraints.
I say, buy the best harness and helmet.
snakoil
Enthusiast
The SCCA allows harnesses to be five years old before requiring replacement. At least one of the belts has to have a manufacturer's label/date on it.
The nice thing is that most of the manufacturers will re-web it for you if it is expired. The cams and buckles do not wear out. I sent my 5 year old, 6 point Simpson harness back to the maker and they not only re-webbed it for me but they made some custom changes to the belts to fit my smaller build. On top of that, they changed them from pull down to pull up to make tightening easier.
Total cost about $50 and 10 days of time.
In regards to impact force, a loose fitting belt will add even more stress to the buckles and adjusters.
The nice thing is that most of the manufacturers will re-web it for you if it is expired. The cams and buckles do not wear out. I sent my 5 year old, 6 point Simpson harness back to the maker and they not only re-webbed it for me but they made some custom changes to the belts to fit my smaller build. On top of that, they changed them from pull down to pull up to make tightening easier.
Total cost about $50 and 10 days of time.
In regards to impact force, a loose fitting belt will add even more stress to the buckles and adjusters.
Anthony - 98 GTS
Enthusiast
I have a set of red Simpson 5 point belts - I think they are dated mid '99 - let me know if your interested. They are a direct replacement for a Viper and are currently installed in my '98 GTS.
Anthony
[email protected]
Anthony
[email protected]
ntmatter
Enthusiast
Belts are cheap - I can't imagine that the savings from buying a used set would be worth the question mark. I just got a pair of Teamtech 6-points from JonB for around $300 - and they are much, much nicer than the old Simpsons that I had in the car. Get new ones and don't worry about the quality.
A
A
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jerry Scott[CO]:
...... There's nothing wrong with belts that are two years old. I fly an aerobatic plane that has 5 point belts that are 10 years and they are just fine, and the FAA does not require their replacement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My reply was to THIS comparison above.... a 10-year old harness in an Citabria or something!?
The harnesses mandated in the BOEING are intended to assist in maintaining control, not saving the pilots life. As you well know, a civilian airliner encountering WX, CAT or even Wake can pitch the pilots to the cockpit ceiling.
Racing harnesses are designed to save lives, and inspected to ensure a useful live is not over-extended. Like the mandates on aircraft themeselves!
...... There's nothing wrong with belts that are two years old. I fly an aerobatic plane that has 5 point belts that are 10 years and they are just fine, and the FAA does not require their replacement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My reply was to THIS comparison above.... a 10-year old harness in an Citabria or something!?
The harnesses mandated in the BOEING are intended to assist in maintaining control, not saving the pilots life. As you well know, a civilian airliner encountering WX, CAT or even Wake can pitch the pilots to the cockpit ceiling.
Racing harnesses are designed to save lives, and inspected to ensure a useful live is not over-extended. Like the mandates on aircraft themeselves!
