Need Input on LAUNCH Control
- Thread starter Jack B
- Start date
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
That would be pretty tough by the time your staged in, brake enough to not roll, clutch in press button and floor it. I would say you have at least 3-5 seconds of work once staged to be ready to watch the lights...
Policy Limits
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2012
- Posts
- 1,372
- Reaction score
- 1
You racer guys you. Lol the car is a cruiser. 0-60 in three and a half seconds is really slow; just sayin.
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
Be careful on tracks that dead hook. A friend of mine tried his launch control (works the same way) in his Gen 5 Camaro at a sticky drag strip, and it managed to shear the bolts off of his driveshaft. Those systems are calculated to look for initial wheelspin and then modulate the throttle blade to match the rear wheel speed to the front wheel speed. If the car dead hooks, then the system can't react quick enough. Kaboom.
That number will come down into the 2's - that is a guarantee. The key to this car is to have controlled wheel spin, if you dead hook or close, the car will bog and nose dive. If you have a 1.7 second or less sixty foot time, the 60 mph time will be in the 2's and that should be achievable with a little practice.
Mark:
Two comments and then please discuss this with SRT:
1. With the current launch control , it does not allow enough wheel spin at the time the rpm's catch up with wheel speed, therefore, the bog - this has to be fixed. Currently, in my opinion the only way to launch these cars is with the ESC full off.
2. At the strip I was purposely running fuel low for weight. In addition I had on drag radial, therefore, no pressure transducers in the tires. When you pull into the lanes to run you do not keep the car running because of heat sink. In order to turn ESC off you have to hold the button down for five seconds. That is even too long when the track is trying to expedite the races.
Here is another problem:
A. You are the next car up to race and are sitting with the engine off waiting for the track official to call you up to the staging area.
B. You are called up and you start the engine. You want to immediately turn off ESC. You cannot clean or burn the tires unless you do so. Even if you are foolish and want to use launch control, you still have to turn off ESC to clean/heat the tires. In general, tires reach optimum traction at 140 deg F.
C. In my case as soon as you start the engine, either the low fuel icon or the low tire pressure icon light up the middle of the dash - that locks you out of turning off the ESC. So there you are trying to turn off ESC and you cannot do such. By this time the other racer is staged and waiting for you.
D. If you are lucky you finally get ESC turned off, however, you still have to clean/heat the tires and your opponent is still waiting.
E. You now go to heat the tires (get wheel spin and quickly hit the brakes), however, with the G5 the rear brake bias seems greater than the G2, therefore, it is difficult to keep the tires spinning with the brakes on. One solution would be to do the burn-out in the water box. I do not personally like that because when you are finally staged the water drips down on the tire from the wheel well.
In summary, if SRT wants anyone to drag race these cars they have to fix the interference created by these nannygate systems. Secondly, the long first gear, the aluminum flywheel and a flawed "Launch" control are hurting 60 mph times., we need a software/firmware fix. SRT may not advertise this as a drag car, however, if other manufacturers start wiping them up at the strip, that cannot help sales. We are only asking for some simple programming changes.
A. Make Launch control more flexible. There are other SRT cars that allow you to set the launch rpm. A two step sequence would be nice. You set the launch mode and it allows you to stage. Once the second light turns on, a second push of the button will immediately bring the rpm's up to the preset level.
B. Allow some wheel slip as rpm's meet wheel speed after launch. All cars need wheel speed for the best 60 ft time.
C. Make the ESC system/button ride on top of other systems. In other words, as soon as you start the car and hit ESC the icon is on the screen and you can immediately start the five second hold sequence.
Two comments and then please discuss this with SRT:
1. With the current launch control , it does not allow enough wheel spin at the time the rpm's catch up with wheel speed, therefore, the bog - this has to be fixed. Currently, in my opinion the only way to launch these cars is with the ESC full off.
2. At the strip I was purposely running fuel low for weight. In addition I had on drag radial, therefore, no pressure transducers in the tires. When you pull into the lanes to run you do not keep the car running because of heat sink. In order to turn ESC off you have to hold the button down for five seconds. That is even too long when the track is trying to expedite the races.
Here is another problem:
A. You are the next car up to race and are sitting with the engine off waiting for the track official to call you up to the staging area.
B. You are called up and you start the engine. You want to immediately turn off ESC. You cannot clean or burn the tires unless you do so. Even if you are foolish and want to use launch control, you still have to turn off ESC to clean/heat the tires. In general, tires reach optimum traction at 140 deg F.
C. In my case as soon as you start the engine, either the low fuel icon or the low tire pressure icon light up the middle of the dash - that locks you out of turning off the ESC. So there you are trying to turn off ESC and you cannot do such. By this time the other racer is staged and waiting for you.
D. If you are lucky you finally get ESC turned off, however, you still have to clean/heat the tires and your opponent is still waiting.
E. You now go to heat the tires (get wheel spin and quickly hit the brakes), however, with the G5 the rear brake bias seems greater than the G2, therefore, it is difficult to keep the tires spinning with the brakes on. One solution would be to do the burn-out in the water box. I do not personally like that because when you are finally staged the water drips down on the tire from the wheel well.
In summary, if SRT wants anyone to drag race these cars they have to fix the interference created by these nannygate systems. Secondly, the long first gear, the aluminum flywheel and a flawed "Launch" control are hurting 60 mph times., we need a software/firmware fix. SRT may not advertise this as a drag car, however, if other manufacturers start wiping them up at the strip, that cannot help sales. We are only asking for some simple programming changes.
A. Make Launch control more flexible. There are other SRT cars that allow you to set the launch rpm. A two step sequence would be nice. You set the launch mode and it allows you to stage. Once the second light turns on, a second push of the button will immediately bring the rpm's up to the preset level.
B. Allow some wheel slip as rpm's meet wheel speed after launch. All cars need wheel speed for the best 60 ft time.
C. Make the ESC system/button ride on top of other systems. In other words, as soon as you start the car and hit ESC the icon is on the screen and you can immediately start the five second hold sequence.
Last edited:
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
Nice write up on the ESC. Thank you. I hope someday they bring back the Viper.
mnc2886
Enthusiast
I'm not trying to be negative at all, but that made me laugh. HAHA!!!
It is the first year of the car and bugs need to be worked out. That is a great post Jack. I've been posting it all along and it wasn't really ever responded to by anyone, but according to the magazines and the owner's on here, the launch control system doesn't work at all. Hope SRT listens. It'll only help them.
The car has all the right parts to be a consistent high 10 second car. Just make a few tweaks and you're there. That's the silver lining in all this.
Jack,
What was your best run? I've been waiting for your results as have many!!
The viper isn't a drag car and I find drag racing to be quite boring...but if I was going to do it in my viper, I would disable ESC and leave it off, and that means don't use launch control.
Letting your engine idle while in staging lanes can lead to heat soak...yes. That's why you're not going to get good runs going on open-to-public track days when you got hundreds of kids in their mom's camrys and accords waiting in line, followed by some dipsh1t in an old hooptee that he put a big V8 in breaking his axle and causing a 2 hr cleaning delay. You can't even get much in the way of practice because they tend to rush you along.
Letting your engine idle while in staging lanes can lead to heat soak...yes. That's why you're not going to get good runs going on open-to-public track days when you got hundreds of kids in their mom's camrys and accords waiting in line, followed by some dipsh1t in an old hooptee that he put a big V8 in breaking his axle and causing a 2 hr cleaning delay. You can't even get much in the way of practice because they tend to rush you along.
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
FLL-B/W-GTS
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2007
- Posts
- 575
- Reaction score
- 0
I have to get all the stuff done on the 911 Turbo S when dragging another car also at the track. Pressure is on, must stage with Launch Control Active and as soon as you get the second yellow, nail the gas with your foot on the brake. The turbos take just a second to go to full boost, then as soon as the tree starts, foot off the brake quick. Doing it that way, you do not red line and the launch is perfect. In short, you have to practice with out another car next to you to get it correct. It does work excellent when you figure it out.
Stability Control off, will pull power..
Gen 5s are more difficult, watched the Gen.5 at Palm Beach drag racing all day with really good driver, real issue launching it, then then when it hooks, it bogs pretty bad...Big Issue..
But it did run one run 11.16 one time,which is excellent.
Stability Control off, will pull power..
Gen 5s are more difficult, watched the Gen.5 at Palm Beach drag racing all day with really good driver, real issue launching it, then then when it hooks, it bogs pretty bad...Big Issue..
But it did run one run 11.16 one time,which is excellent.
NastyGTS
Viper Owner
HogWhisperer
Enthusiast
LOL Have you even tried the 0-60? If you can get 3.5, you're my hero!
This is still a a project in the works. The density altitude was close to 3000 on both Friday and Saturday. On Saturday it rained from 9:00 till 2:00, washing out most of the time trials. I tried the launch control and decided to not use it again. On Saturday I only had one time trial and minimum time launching with ESC turned off.
The positive was that my 60 ft times started at over 2.0, came down to 1.9 and then to 1.8. The most positive part of the weekend was the trap speed, Trap speeds do not lie, they give you true HP. My times were not very good, part of that was due to the DA of 3000. I had two 11.6 runs at 126. The other runs were slower, this is where the car would bog or fall down after launch. A car with an 11.6 ET/126 mph running on a day with a DA of 3000 can turn an 11.2 at 130 mph on a 60 degree day at sea level with 0% humidity. Which means with a 1.9 sixty ft time, this car will run 11.2 in September. On my Gen 2 for every 0.1 of second that I lowered the sixty ft time, the ET would come down by .25 seconds. Basically a 1.80 sixty puts the car into the ten's. With a 1.7, you are deep into the ten's.
Another positve finding was the current trap speed of 126 with a DA of 3000, two weeks ago when I removed the air cleaner the car would only trap at 120 mph. I found a "Throttle induced limited power" code in the PCM. SRT indirectly said that couldn't happen. They said the car would be limited to 2500 rpm, well that was not the case, the PCM did limit the trap speed. That 120 mph was with a DA of approximately 2000. I feel a lot better about the power output.
As far as improving the sixty ft times, this car has to have some wheel speed or slip when the rpm and wheel speed meet after a launch. That is the reason the launch control does so poorly, it almost always bogs or nose dives a little after the initial launch. Once the front end nose dives, your ET suffers dramatically. I played with the pressure in the Hoosier drag radials and found the best traction was at 16 psi. As a matter the traction is very good, the key is to launch at a high enough rpm so that you get some wheel slip, if you don't, again, the car nose dives after the launch. That is where I am right down. I just need to get the right rpm for the good traction.
The positive was that my 60 ft times started at over 2.0, came down to 1.9 and then to 1.8. The most positive part of the weekend was the trap speed, Trap speeds do not lie, they give you true HP. My times were not very good, part of that was due to the DA of 3000. I had two 11.6 runs at 126. The other runs were slower, this is where the car would bog or fall down after launch. A car with an 11.6 ET/126 mph running on a day with a DA of 3000 can turn an 11.2 at 130 mph on a 60 degree day at sea level with 0% humidity. Which means with a 1.9 sixty ft time, this car will run 11.2 in September. On my Gen 2 for every 0.1 of second that I lowered the sixty ft time, the ET would come down by .25 seconds. Basically a 1.80 sixty puts the car into the ten's. With a 1.7, you are deep into the ten's.
Another positve finding was the current trap speed of 126 with a DA of 3000, two weeks ago when I removed the air cleaner the car would only trap at 120 mph. I found a "Throttle induced limited power" code in the PCM. SRT indirectly said that couldn't happen. They said the car would be limited to 2500 rpm, well that was not the case, the PCM did limit the trap speed. That 120 mph was with a DA of approximately 2000. I feel a lot better about the power output.
As far as improving the sixty ft times, this car has to have some wheel speed or slip when the rpm and wheel speed meet after a launch. That is the reason the launch control does so poorly, it almost always bogs or nose dives a little after the initial launch. Once the front end nose dives, your ET suffers dramatically. I played with the pressure in the Hoosier drag radials and found the best traction was at 16 psi. As a matter the traction is very good, the key is to launch at a high enough rpm so that you get some wheel slip, if you don't, again, the car nose dives after the launch. That is where I am right down. I just need to get the right rpm for the good traction.
You may not like this suggestion but on a car like the Viper slipping the clutch to avoid bogging works. It takes practice and every car has its own sweet spot for where you can slip it "safely".
The basic method is that you feel out the optimal launch RPM by doing a practice run. This RPM will vary based on track conditions and what kind of tires you have.
The ideal launch RPM will approximately be the lowest RPMs that can spin the rear tires without you losing revs (and bogging).
Once you identify the launch RPM, you do not drop the clutch; instead you release it like 98-99% then modulate it so the revs stay high as your wheels spin. Your want your car to hook after it already has some forward momentum, at which point you let off the clutch entirely and go. If done correctly you'll have sub 2-sec 60 ft times.
I have a great idea, you should meet us at a close by drag strip, I will go half way and meet you at Quaker City, this way I can get personal lessons from you. BTW, we want sub 1.7 sixties, not, sub two second sixties. You spent way too much time in those legend S2000's.
Last edited:
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
lmao, wow PeerBlock.
According to math, a sub-2 sec 60 ft time would include sub-1.7 60 ft times. Just thought I'd put that out there. I know how tricky numbers can be because there are so many of them!
You can also feel free to pretend that you already knew what I said about how to properly launch a high-powered RWD car. I won't tell anyone so your image of "coolness" stays preserved, and it may even save you from embarrassing yourself by starting a thread asking about how to drag race using launch control.
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
Did you happen to read his signature? One of the quickest Vipers on this site.
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
Guys lets not let PeerBlock run ANOTHER thread, please.
I just don't understand why you try to ruin so many good threads, especially when it is obvious you lack the experience to move the thread in the right direction. What thread have you started in this forum that has had a positive impact? I forgot, you did start the thread on floor mats.
There is nothing in this thread about trying to be "COOL", it is about learning. I think anyone who races wants an answer to the apparent short comings of the current launch control.
I meant what I said about meeting you at Quaker City to race - too busy or ????? In ending when you have nothing better to say, why does it always comes down to personal attacks??
There is nothing in this thread about trying to be "COOL", it is about learning. I think anyone who races wants an answer to the apparent short comings of the current launch control.
I meant what I said about meeting you at Quaker City to race - too busy or ????? In ending when you have nothing better to say, why does it always comes down to personal attacks??
Last edited:
Irrelevant, since it's not with this Gen 5. He's not going to be running 10s in his Gen 5 until he applies my advice.
You need to stop whining about "attacks" after you make a ******* and non-productive response to yet another faux tech thread that you started. I get it. You're still bent out of shape from being wrong about "all manual transmissions have a direct drive", and now you're trolling the Gen 5 forums with a thread about drag racing with launch control.
If you're going to claim that you want to "learn" and have a problem with my method of how to launch WITHOUT LC, then feel free to state what you believe is incorrect and explain why. Short of that, just keep your mouth shut.
Are you jealous that my floormat thread has helped several members make a decision about which floormats to buy? Meanwhile, none of your "technical" threads have yielded any helpful information because you claim you are here to learn but mistakenly believe you know everything.
Launch Control was added so that old farts can have some chance of doing a hard launch without totally embarrassing themselves in front of their country club buddies - not to win races or get the lowest ETs. No "real" Viper owners need ESC or Launch Control to do any kind of drag racing. The answer is simple - turn it off and do what I said. It's really that easy. /EndOfThread
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
You must be registered for see images
I still want to race you at Quaker City, just say yes or I will assume you know nothing about drag racing. I doubt you could even navigate the lanes at Quaker City, they are unique.BTW, VIPERS are not about floor mats.
TrackAire
Enthusiast
Peerblock,
Not to start a sh!tstorm here, but you do realize that any high horsepower drag car has launch control. Probably the second highest paid guy on a drag team is the guy that sets up the clutch and how much it slips and when and how it engages. That is the only way to launch a high horsepower car (think pro stock, funny cars, top fuel dragsters, etc). So to say that you need to be a good driver to "launch" a high horsepower Viper is not technically correct given what the pro's use. Of course you can launch it, but if the launch control was working correctly for a drag strip application (which is very different than a street launch and can very greatly with pad prep, VHT, temps, drag radial type, etc) you may be able to beat a "pro" racer not using launch control. Ask an owner of the new McLaren which is faster at the strip?? Just listening to what Jack B says about how to even get the launch control set up, it obviously has some major programming in its future to make it work correctly for the strip. After a certain amount of horsepower is passed in a rwd car, a correctly functioning launch control will be faster on a street driven car regardless of who the driver is. The key is in the launch control programming which is not optimal at this point for the Gen 5.
So, if you think all the pro NHRA racers could launch their vehicles faster without the clutch guy tuning the system for all the given parameters, you're wrong. I'm being respectful in my response to you so if you try to argue the point that pro NHRA drivers don't adjust the clutch (usually every run, a very effective form of launch control), then it appears you have an ulterior motive that is not helpful in any way.
Jack B,
Do you feel that a launch control version that has an adjustable amount of "slip" would be the best case scenario? I've been in an 800 rwhp Ford GT and it had Race Logic traction control that was adjustable with a simple know to allow the driver to adjust the percentage of rear wheel spin versus front tire rpm. It seemed to work great at the strip and on the street. I just cannot see how any pre-programmed launch control could ever take in all the different parameters listed above and work without being adjustable by the driver.
Cheers,
George
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
I don't get why you all even engage with PeerBlock. He sat and argued for pages that the gearing in most cars for 3'd is 1:1
Trackaire:
You said:
"Do you feel that a launch control version that has an adjustable amount of "slip" would be the best case scenario? I've been in an 800 rwhp Ford GT and it had Race Logic traction control that was adjustable with a simple know to allow the driver to adjust the percentage of rear wheel spin versus front tire rpm. It seemed to work great at the strip and on the street. I just cannot see how any pre-programmed launch control could ever take in all the different parameters listed above and work without being adjustable by the driver"
You are correct, an adjustable slip would pay great rewards. For track use, the two stage actuation would also be a great improvement: Stage 1 - turn it on and set rpm (it will not actuate till you hit the button a second time). While in Stage 1, you can go to the staging lights and set the second light. Stage 2 - as soon as you see the second stage light you hit the "launch" button a second time, that brings the rpm's up to the preset level. As the tree drops you merely release the clutch.
You said:
"Do you feel that a launch control version that has an adjustable amount of "slip" would be the best case scenario? I've been in an 800 rwhp Ford GT and it had Race Logic traction control that was adjustable with a simple know to allow the driver to adjust the percentage of rear wheel spin versus front tire rpm. It seemed to work great at the strip and on the street. I just cannot see how any pre-programmed launch control could ever take in all the different parameters listed above and work without being adjustable by the driver"
You are correct, an adjustable slip would pay great rewards. For track use, the two stage actuation would also be a great improvement: Stage 1 - turn it on and set rpm (it will not actuate till you hit the button a second time). While in Stage 1, you can go to the staging lights and set the second light. Stage 2 - as soon as you see the second stage light you hit the "launch" button a second time, that brings the rpm's up to the preset level. As the tree drops you merely release the clutch.
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
Jack, would you mind doing a thread on how to do launches WITHOUT launch control?
eg: I am totally new to this and would love to learn how to get off the line myself - quickly
eg: I am totally new to this and would love to learn how to get off the line myself - quickly
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
Jack, I hope Quaker is only an 1/8-mile track. I'd hate to have to force someone into tuning 4th gear on a dynojet, if they only like to use 3rd for racing. Please be considerate.
