New Car Mileage Question?

[markbrown]

the problem with the miles is that - these guys get in them and immediately dog it. i know for a fact the engine oil has to get to temp to protect the lifters. that is my whole problem, no one understand from the owner down that this does matter at least to me it does. i have had lots of new car lifter problems 4 new cars in the past.

i feel for sure this is an epidemic in the new car sales arena. many of these sales guys are here todat and gone tomorrow and the buyers car be dammed they are having agood time quick before the boss catches them, which is not enought time to warm the oil.

mb

 

[supersnake]

My 08 had 13 miles on it and I was there when it was backed off the Reliable truck, No one drove the car after it was unloaded.

 

[1BADGTS]

the problem with the miles is that - these guys get in them and immediately dog it. i know for a fact the engine oil has to get to temp to protect the lifters. that is my whole problem, no one understand from the owner down that this does matter at least to me it does. i have had lots of new car lifter problems 4 new cars in the past.

i feel for sure this is an epidemic in the new car sales arena. many of these sales guys are here todat and gone tomorrow and the buyers car be dammed they are having agood time quick before the boss catches them, which is not enought time to warm the oil.

mb

Mark if the above were true in relation to it actually causing a mechanical problem we would surely have seen it by now and thats DEFINATELY not the case with our Vipers.I know it really matters to you but once again in a real world senerio there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (short of picking your car up at the factory )you can do about it.ps its not always always the workers at the dealerships having fun alot of times its the owners as well.

 

[1BADGTS]

My 08 had 13 miles on it and I was there when it was backed off the Reliable truck, No one drove the car after it was unloaded.

Not always the dealership,who put the 13 miles on the car.?Absolutely no way in the world to tell in those 13 miles it was not run hard either by av factory worker or a reliable employee

 

[1BADGTS]

Not always the dealership,who put the 13 miles on the car.?Absolutely no way in the world to tell in those 13 miles it was not run hard either by av factory worker or a reliable employee

A few years ago my buddy living in NJ bought FERRARI (new) from a Calif Dealership when the car arrived in NJ (four days later) it had an extra three quarters of a mile on it.The carrier was not RELIABLE but another very large transporter.

 

[gen2lover]

2 words Mark.Please listen...again..Chuck Tator.
Call him! Do it!

 

[lbstone]

Here's and interesting point of view that I think you should consider Mark, as I share your sentiments. A good friend if mine was a mechanic at a Ford dealer and also a car nut like me. A few years ago her purhased a brand new Ford Mustang Cobra R. From the day he took delivery, he drove the car very hard. In the end he had to replae the tranny after a few thousand miles (motor was never an issues all these years later). I asked him about breaking the car in properly when he gave me this anicdote; Cars today are build to very high tolerances, in years past the cars needed a thousand miles to be broken in due to manufacuring prosesses that are considered ancient technology now. He said if you look at sport bikes, they require a two stage break-in procedure. First limiting the RPM's to 7K RPMs or so for the first 500 miles, then limiting the RPM's to 10K miles till 1K miles are reached. My buddy was adamant that this was just to limit the engine damage if something was to fail durring the first 1000 miles of the engine's life. I tend to agree with him on this. Hard miles are a good thing for an engine such as the Vipers. If the miles are hard miles put on by some pimply faced car detaler in the back, I'm sure he didn't just start it up and rip on it right in front of the dealership. First he's gotta get outta sight of the dealership as this behavior is not condoned my nearly any dealer. So by the time he's got the car out of ear and eye shot of anyone from the dealer, besides his buddies, the engine has had enough time to at least reach a respectable temperature. Maybe not the optimal 180 degrees, but I'm sure the oil reaches at least 120 or so in about a minute. Also consider this, it seems most Viper owners dont drive their cars nearly enough. The car I purchased is proof of this, it had only 1,400 miles on it as an 05 and I just purchased it in September. All that sitting around is far more detrimental to a motor then just 10 or so very hard miles. Hope this helps

 

[mjf6175]

I think it is a moot point on which way is best to brake-in a motor, THAT should be left to the decision of the buyer/owner of the Viper, not someone at the dealership who decides to "see what she'll do".

I also agree that behavior such as this is showing disrespect for the customer. I am paying for the Viper and this is what I want. I pick the color and options, I also want to decide on the condition/use of the Viper as well.

Which leads to what several have said here, say it after me, "CHUCK TATOR". My Viper had 3 miles on it when it was delivered to Chuck. Not only that, he takes numerous photos of the Viper when it gets delivered by Reliable and one of the photos is a picture of the odometer when it rolls off the truck. Chuck then asked me if he had permission to put 2 miles on the car. He has a specfic route to drive the Viper on that is exactly 1 mile long (1 mile out, 1 mile back) and he does this as part as his dealer prep. Chuck even tells you what road he does the drive on and does not do it in the rain!!! I picked my car up with 5 miles. Need I say it was PERFECT?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

the problem with the miles is that - these guys get in them and immediately dog it. i know for a fact the engine oil has to get to temp to protect the lifters. that is my whole problem, no one understand from the owner down that this does matter at least to me it does. i have had lots of new car lifter problems 4 new cars in the past.

i feel for sure this is an epidemic in the new car sales arena. many of these sales guys are here todat and gone tomorrow and the buyers car be dammed they are having agood time quick before the boss catches them, which is not enought time to warm the oil.

mb

Maybe you can detail these problem cars, because I disagree. The oil Vipers come with is now a 0W-40, so it pumps and flows at sub-zero temperatures, so at ambient temperatures it flows very, very well and you don't need warming up to get it to circulate. It will fill the hydraulic adjusters almost immediately, certainly before the car gets out of the parking lot. The lifters are roller lifters, so there is no concern about wiping out (flat tappet) bottoms or the cam lobes. Lastly, the Viper engine is a low RPM engine and can't get past 6000RPM, so you're not able to throw lifters off the cam lobe.

The dealer does not build the car, they are only a service organization. Therefore they should treat you and your future property with the appropriate respect. But the car companies have done a lot of good work and I don't think a ten minute joy ride makes any difference to the engine.

 

[1BADGTS]

Last Summer i was at a private test session with the mag guys at Muscle Mustang and Fast Mag at Englishtown NJ.We were over at the road coarse when a few engineers from SRT came in for a model introduction happening the next day.Once they saw my 08 and realized i was friendly with mag Editor Evan Smith they freely talked shop. A given mandated parameter for the 2008 Dodge Viper is that it had to pass the running endurance test in which a NEW prototype MOTOR is placed upon a dyno and ran at near redline from a COLD startup for 3 days before Dodge was satisfyed .Now realistically if a brand new Viper engine from a cold start can run for 72 hours straight at NEAR REDLINE what harm can possibly come to it if a few jokers take the car thru the gears when its new. Of coarse the action shows disrespect but whats the difference if its not hurting the car and realistically there nothing the customer can do about it.

 

[1BADGTS]

Maybe you can detail these problem cars, because I disagree. The oil Vipers come with is now a 0W-40, so it pumps and flows at sub-zero temperatures, so at ambient temperatures it flows very, very well and you don't need warming up to get it to circulate. It will fill the hydraulic adjusters almost immediately, certainly before the car gets out of the parking lot. The lifters are roller lifters, so there is no concern about wiping out (flat tappet) bottoms or the cam lobes. Lastly, the Viper engine is a low RPM engine and can't get past 6000RPM, so you're not able to throw lifters off the cam lobe.

The dealer does not build the car, they are only a service organization. Therefore they should treat you and your future property with the appropriate respect. But the car companies have done a lot of good work and I don't think a ten minute joy ride makes any difference to the engine.

Exactly Tom as between myself and my friends (esp at the mags )we have orned or tested alot of heavy duty high performance cars and NEVER once came across the problem Mark is describing.Also if the above was true Dodge would be paying out alot of warranty claims besides the bad press.If the general public could ever see how a prototype Viper is tested before its released to the public i think they would have a better grasp on things .A year or so before the Ford GT was introduced John Coletti (head of SVT )wanted to see what the car was capable of so he gave a new prototype to Evan Smith to test at Englishtown.(basically how low of an ET could be had with ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD to the car )I was luckly enough to be present at the test in which the car was at the mercy of a professional driver for hour after hour so i saw first hand the abuse these engines can take.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

This question comes up quite often and the bulk of the answers are not correct, as the cars come in with anywhere from around 3 miles up to 50.

1. Cars should have somewhere in the teens in most cases as Dealerships that do the proper PDI required by Chrysler , must do a short test drive to check vehicle operation.
2. About one in fifty cars is gone over at the Plant a second time, and these vehicles can have as many as 50 miles on them. There will be a small sticker on the driver's window to show that this was a Plant quality assurance vehicle ( some folks actually want these cars even more as they are scrutinized quite heavily ).

In over 10 years I have never seen a vehicle with 0 miles at delivery.

Sincerely,
Bill Pemberton
Woodhouse Viper

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Hey, 1BAD, any magazines need fuels and lubes writers or commentary? Sounds like a fun position!

 

[Slypopsracing]

Dodge Corporate seems very diligent to watch our Vipers(A whine I heard @ dealership from new blonde service writer"Why can't weeeee drive that car") but things do go on. 2 yrs ago My son had warranty work (harmonic balancer),they kept the SRT 5 wks (nice rental) and was all waxed and the tires shined black wi .2 miles on it. Only problem is he's anal about that car (the underside is CLEANER than the top) well, WAS cleaner, and the only funny part was he hates tire shine on his tires. The only down side to these cars, dont worry about those first 10 miles, you can't let them out of your sight thereafter.

 

[markbrown]

Maybe you can detail these problem cars, because I disagree.

all below were bought brand new by me.

Lifters failed 75 jeep cj5 with kim barr built 401 javelin engine, cranked it up - cracked the throttle hard - drove ot like nuts to the muffler shop to get mufflers and when installed - horrible tick tick tick - my young inexperience with not breaking and engine in right and letting it get to temp prior to gettin on it.
Lifters gave out 76 for granada - wifes car - had about 25 delivery miles - gave out 12k
Lifter noise real bad 95 dakota truck - my truck - 260 miles dealer demo - dumb me
Lifter noise 05 corvette coupe - my car. 8 delivery miles - 4 too many
Lifter noise real bad up to 2200 rpm 06 z06 - my car 6 miles - 2 too many

note the z06 has a dry sump oil system - it takes at least 12 miles to get up to 100 and about 18 miles to get to 160+ these cars are very slow to heat up. i think the main reason lifters are failing on thses cars big time read anywhere on any corvette forum you see.

No lifter noise 06 z06 - my wifes car - 4 miles on delivery - changed the oil at 500 miles never drove over 50 for the the first 500 miles, never got rpms up over 2500 first 500 miles and after that slowly took another 1000 miles braking it in before first 98% throttle run AFTER another oil change. car currently has 8000 miles on it and the oil has been changed 4 times mobil one. car is perfect.

Mark Brown

 

[gb66gth]

Wow! If your that torqued up about a few unauthorized test miles being put on the car before you get it, how are you going to feel when a rock flies up off the road and into your front bumper? You did'nt have the "privledge" of throwing the rock up yourself and thus popping the proverbial cherry, but hey it's a an imperfect world. Buy the car, drive the car, enjoy the car and don't sweat what is ultimately the VERY small stuff in life.

 

[markbrown]

A year or so before the Ford GT was introduced John Coletti (head of SVT )wanted to see what the car was capable of so he gave a new prototype to Evan Smith to test at Englishtown.(basically how low of an ET could be had with ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD to the car )I was luckly enough to be present at the test in which the car was at the mercy of a professional driver for hour after hour so i saw first hand the abuse these engines can take.

ok i believe you and i know you guys have vipers you dog on from day one. i am a old hot rodder i have had at least 200 cars in my 52 years. you can run a car hard from day one like that ford gt or a viper but - what life will it have after 25k miles? that is the question, tear one down after it has been dogged for about 5k miles.

how often do they rebuild race engines? often is the answer and why? cause they are abused. i dont want an abused new viper that i pay 90 grand for. if its going to get abuse i want to do it not some kid at the dealer. can anyone respect that?

would i buy that dogged out ford gt? where is that car now? i bet its smoking when you start it.

mark brown

 

[gb66gth]

No disrespect meant but, were you and your wife both virgins when you got married? If you get my metaphor...Do you love her any less?

 

[markbrown]

1. Cars should have somewhere in the teens in most cases as Dealerships that do the proper PDI required by Chrysler , must do a short test drive to check vehicle operation.

Sincerely,
Bill Pemberton
Woodhouse Viper

Bill can you better explain the PDI? what is that and how many miles does it take to do that? Have you guys ever had any lifter problems with new vipers?

Mark Brown

 

[markbrown]

No disrespect meant but, were you and your wife both virgins when you got married? If you get my metaphor...Do you love her any less?

dude i paid 20 bucks to get married at the rockwall tx county courthouse 1974 after work on a friday - the reason i didn't pay 5 bucks is because i didn't have change - i had just cashed my pay check and had 180 bucks in 20's.

the viper cost 90 grand - i will be the one poppin that cherry thank you very much - not some punk in the service dept or worst some sales guy or even worst the sales manager.

mark brown

 

[markbrown]

Wow! If your that torqued up about a few unauthorized test miles being put on the car before you get it, how are you going to feel when a rock flies up off the road and into your front bumper? You did'nt have the "privledge" of throwing the rock up yourself and thus popping the proverbial cherry, but hey it's a an imperfect world. Buy the car, drive the car, enjoy the car and don't sweat what is ultimately the VERY small stuff in life.

rocks don't hit my cars - seriously - i can teach you the method if you wish.

mb

 

[markbrown]

Last Summer i was at a private test session with the mag guys at Muscle Mustang and Fast Mag at Englishtown NJ.We were over at the road coarse when a few engineers from SRT came in for a model introduction happening the next day.Once they saw my 08 and realized i was friendly with mag Editor Evan Smith they freely talked shop. A given mandated parameter for the 2008 Dodge Viper is that it had to pass the running endurance test in which a NEW prototype MOTOR is placed upon a dyno and ran at near redline from a COLD startup for 3 days before Dodge was satisfyed .Now realistically if a brand new Viper engine from a cold start can run for 72 hours straight at NEAR REDLINE what harm can possibly come to it if a few jokers take the car thru the gears when its new. Of coarse the action shows disrespect but whats the difference if its not hurting the car and realistically there nothing the customer can do about it.

ok tell you what - why don't you get that 72 run engine and put it in your viper. how long will that engine really last. i bet that thing smokes when you start it. i think some of you guys are delusional about how much abuse an engine will take. at least before it needs to be tore into. come on every viper dealer near me has a line outside waiting to be serviced. vipers can't be that bullet proof? i wish - but at any rate - what does it hurt to take it easy with a new viper and baby it until it is for sure broke in?

mb

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

OK, you don't know what the actual mode of failures were. Some of your examples are hydraulic flat tappet, some are roller; the 401 may even be solid. My point was that a synthetic SAE 0W-40 engine oil at room temperature behaves like a warmed up mineral 10W-30 or whatever was put in those older cars. My other point was that today's engines are much different than those from 1970 or even 1995.

I don't know Chevy, but the dry sump is supposed to have oil where you need it when you need it with no excuse. If lifters fail, then Chevy ought to have fired someone.

I bought my Gen 1 Viper with 20,000 miles from a guy that drag raced. Now I have 94,000 miles and I drive it daily, autocross, time trial, drive unless there is snow on the ground. Dynos 410/490 now and doesn't burn oil or smoke.

Race engines get rebuilt frequently for two reasons. First, because they are made lighter than usual and some parts fail sooner. Cosworth built F1 engines to last about 1200 miles (maybe that was kilometers) and they had to rebuild them because the piston pin bosses were so undersized to keep weight down, the bosses would get pulled off the bottom of the piston because of the high RPM. Second, to finish first, first you have to finish. Professional racers have a very high need to run all laps due to sponsor commitments. So they are anal about checking things - and cheap about re-using things, too. Race engines are different, as you must know.

But at any rate, I cannot disagree with you about your feelings for the car. Your new Viper (or any of your cars) is your entertainment and you may treat it as you wish. I was simply trying to provide some information and you are obviously not risking anything with any of your actions.

 

[1BADGTS]

Mark you not being realistic .You have no idea the amount of abuse these engines can take untill you have actually seen it first hand with a professional behind the wheel on a CLOSED test track(and there is nothing delusional about that ).Your on a Viper club forum in which BASICALLY every owner has told you the identical thing and for some reason your not listening.Please find me ANY exotic out there that you can ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE (NOT THAT OT MATTERS in the least bit )has not been run thru the gears.

 

[1BADGTS]

all below were bought brand new by me.

Lifters failed 75 jeep cj5 with kim barr built 401 javelin engine, cranked it up - cracked the throttle hard - drove ot like nuts to the muffler shop to get mufflers and when installed - horrible tick tick tick - my young inexperience with not breaking and engine in right and letting it get to temp prior to gettin on it.
Lifters gave out 76 for granada - wifes car - had about 25 delivery miles - gave out 12k
Lifter noise real bad 95 dakota truck - my truck - 260 miles dealer demo - dumb me
Lifter noise 05 corvette coupe - my car. 8 delivery miles - 4 too many
Lifter noise real bad up to 2200 rpm 06 z06 - my car 6 miles - 2 too many

note the z06 has a dry sump oil system - it takes at least 12 miles to get up to 100 and about 18 miles to get to 160+ these cars are very slow to heat up. i think the main reason lifters are failing on thses cars big time read anywhere on any corvette forum you see.

No lifter noise 06 z06 - my wifes car - 4 miles on delivery - changed the oil at 500 miles never drove over 50 for the the first 500 miles, never got rpms up over 2500 first 500 miles and after that slowly took another 1000 miles braking it in before first 98% throttle run AFTER another oil change. car currently has 8000 miles on it and the oil has been changed 4 times mobil one. car is perfect.

Mark Brown

PS the new cars(1995 and newer) in particular were ANY warranty claims put in on them and if so how were they addressed.

 

[1BADGTS]

ok tell you what - why don't you get that 72 run engine and put it in your viper. how long will that engine really last. i bet that thing smokes when you start it. i think some of you guys are delusional about how much abuse an engine will take. at least before it needs to be tore into. come on every viper dealer near me has a line outside waiting to be serviced. vipers can't be that bullet proof? i wish - but at any rate - what does it hurt to take it easy with a new viper and baby it until it is for sure broke in?

mb

The point is no customer out there could possibly run their Viper for 72 straight hours at near redline.Dodge knows this and if an engine can stand up to this it can definately take a ride aroung the block .

 

[markbrown]

PS the new cars(1995 and newer) in particular were ANY warranty claims put in on them and if so how were they addressed.

the jeep was my fault - i was a stupid young man - and revved the thing to the high heavens without letting the oil get warm let alone breaking it in. kim barr tried to get the lifter company to replace the lifters they were hydraulic - i put the old 360 back in and sold the jeep with the extra 401 broke engine on a pallet.

the dodge dakota - i argued with the dealer - complained to corporate and to no avail it was still tapping when my daughter was hit and it was totalled.

the ford granada was just out of warranty, wife didnt drive it much. it did run and i sold it to some aliens cheap. for years i saw it smoking down the road in garland tx.

the 05 vette i traded for a z06 - went from a tap to a bad tap z - complained to huffines and they promptly put 28 miles on the car checking it out - returned it to me and said its normal for a high performance engine to tap. btw zillions of complaints about the new z's tapping - sewing machine sound. i put 10k miles on it and sold the thing.

my wifes z is perfect i credit that to proper slow break in and numerous oil changes. im sure the mobil 1 doesnt hurt either it cost enough.

i read somewhere that the viper engine is a 318 block basically. i had a 65 dodge tank truck the thing must have weighed 6k pounds. that engine also made a weird sound dont know how to explain it, but it was cyclical sounding. chevys have a sewing machine sound on all vettes and they wistle at low speed. i hope this viper engine is as tough as you all say it is..

mb

 

[1BADGTS]

So basically the dealer denied the warranty claims on the newer cars.(tapping as being NORMAL )

 

[lbstone]

Mark,
I understand you being anal about getting a car with very low delivery miles as I'm the same way with my vehicles. It seems like you've had some bad luck with vehicles in the past but it might be just that, luck. As I was eluding to in my prior post with the friend that owned the Mustang Cobra R. He drove the car like he stole the thing every day and of all things to go, the tranny went. Turns out it was a cammon problem. The car ran strong for a few years till it hit a wall, literally. Then there's another frind of mine who purchased an 08 Roush stage 3 Mustange this year. He knows very little about cars and drives the thing HARD. He took the car on a road trip to Florida and overall he just enjoys the crap outta the car. He just turned 26K miles, all from this year alone!! He just had an exhaust upgrade done and the car runs perfect. He's already gone through his 2nd set of tires and is getting his 3rd set installed this winter. The point I'm trying to make is he hammers the ever loving crap outta the car, and the thing runs flawless. Add the fact that the car is supercharged and he doesn't wait for it to warm up at all, he's not the mechanically inclined type. Its just not an issue of some ***** hotrodded your car for a few miles. There are extreme cases but I wouldn't loose sleep over it, thats what a warranty is for. If you dont put enough miles on the car for a problem to surface within the three years, well then thats detrimental to the car in and of itself. Dont have the car own you. Ownership shouldn't be a chore and thats what it seems your making it out to be.

I'm a younger guy and have quite a bit less life experience then yourself and by no means are my posts meant to be disrespectful. It just seems that I see a lot of owners that are to worried about the little things. If the car has 4 miles or 40, if you purchase from a reputable dealer, this shouldn't be an issue. I know we rag on dealeships all the time on these forums, but for the most part, they want you to be satisfied. We're not buying Dodge Calibers, were buying Vipers. If we have a good experience, the dealership knows it wont be the last they see of us. They know most of us will be back in a few years to trade our babies in for a newer one, get some go fast bits installed or buy another toy! Thats the reason you have such loyalty to dealers like Tators and Woodhouse. If you have a good dealership locally and the miles are a little more then you want, I wouldn't sweat it. In the end though, its YOUR Viper so do as you please and what makes you happy. The car is a want, not a neccesity.

 

[1BADGTS]

Mark,
I understand you being anal about getting a car with very low delivery miles as I'm the same way with my vehicles. It seems like you've had some bad luck with vehicles in the past but it might be just that, luck. As I was eluding to in my prior post with the friend that owned the Mustang Cobra R. He drove the car like he stole the thing every day and of all things to go, the tranny went. Turns out it was a cammon problem. The car ran strong for a few years till it hit a wall, literally. Then there's another frind of mine who purchased an 08 Roush stage 3 Mustange this year. He knows very little about cars and drives the thing HARD. He took the car on a road trip to Florida and overall he just enjoys the crap outta the car. He just turned 26K miles, all from this year alone!! He just had an exhaust upgrade done and the car runs perfect. He's already gone through his 2nd set of tires and is getting his 3rd set installed this winter. The point I'm trying to make is he hammers the ever loving crap outta the car, and the thing runs flawless. Add the fact that the car is supercharged and he doesn't wait for it to warm up at all, he's not the mechanically inclined type. Its just not an issue of some ***** hotrodded your car for a few miles. There are extreme cases but I wouldn't loose sleep over it, thats what a warranty is for. If you dont put enough miles on the car for a problem to surface within the three years, well then thats detrimental to the car in and of itself. Dont have the car own you. Ownership shouldn't be a chore and thats what it seems your making it out to be.

I'm a younger guy and have quite a bit less life experience then yourself and by no means are my posts meant to be disrespectful. It just seems that I see a lot of owners that are to worried about the little things. If the car has 4 miles or 40, if you purchase from a reputable dealer, this shouldn't be an issue. I know we rag on dealeships all the time on these forums, but for the most part, they want you to be satisfied. We're not buying Dodge Calibers, were buying Vipers. If we have a good experience, the dealership knows it wont be the last they see of us. They know most of us will be back in a few years to trade our babies in for a newer one, get some go fast bits installed or buy another toy! Thats the reason you have such loyalty to dealers like Tators and Woodhouse. If you have a good dealership locally and the miles are a little more then you want, I wouldn't sweat it. In the end though, its YOUR Viper so do as you please and what makes you happy. The car is a want, not a neccesity.[/QUOTEVERY VERY TRUE.Last month on the driven forum a spy camera caught a BUNCH of NISSAN DEALERS at the dragstrip with the new GTRS.