Next Gen Viper scrapped? Current Gen to be built to 2011

dragon rider

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Unfortunately the horsepower war, as we know it, will come to an end. Gone will be the days of Big Liters = big power. Unfortunately, V10- 8.4 ltrs. and 35 mpg will be hard to produce. But unlike the mid 70’s, we will not be restricted to having slow, low horsepower cars. Forced induction and high compression motors will take up the slack. Future V8’s and turbo V6’s will be able to accomplish 425hp + and achieve good gas mileage. That being said, nothing can replace the sound and feel of a V10.
 

ledfoot

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At a Dealers convention here in San francisco this weekend, Jim Press said that "Chrysler needs to pare down its lineup so similar models don't compete against each other " and that " The severity of the cuts has not yet been detemend"............Not a whole lot of models competing with the Viper, So maybe were safe......excuse me while I go bury my head in the ground.....
 

Paul Hawker

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What people are forgeting is that there is no successful automotive company without having or are in the process of getting a high performance...stretch the envelope...leadership portion of their car line.

Nissan is releasing a SuperCar, Honda is re-releasing their NSX, Mercedes has its AMG and even higher McLaren, Ford has (or had) SVT, and GM has a new, in house, high performance engine development and production facility.

This is where lots of development is incorporated into high value vehicles, tested out, and then trickles down to their bread and butter cars. Fuel injection, Overhead cams, displacement on demand, electronic ignition, special pistons, cams, combustion chambers, all these were too expensive to develope for grocery getters, but now that fuel economy is important, all this technology is available for the high volume cars.

High strength steel, carbon fiber, LED lighting, high intensity lighting all are trickling down.

Without the inspirations and experience of the leading edge car designer the base car designers will have nothing to go to.

Six speed transmissions, dual clutch technology, paddle shifters all are fully developed in high performance cars.

Even Lexus and Toyota are moving quickly into the high performance marketplace.

Name a GM car that todays kids lust after. Take away the Corvette and its successful racing and high performance lure, and you would have better luck taking them to K-Mart than into a GM dealership.

Viper has become a legend. It will probably morf into different directions, but Chrysler needs its lure more than they could ever imagine.

It will cost a ton more money to reestablish any sort of halo car if they let it go away, than it could possibly cost to continue to support its existance.

To paraphrase...customers will feel younger and more successful driving a Viper than any other Chrysler product.

Something must lead the way to the pentagon star...Let it be Viper.
 

RMBSRT

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Chrysler will have a Halo car in the future...it just will not have a V10 in it.

Cerebus has already stated the future of Chrysler is the international market...not a domestic gas guzzling V10 two seat sports car.

Reality is a b#tch!
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Cerebus has already stated the future of Chrysler is the international market...not a domestic gas guzzling V10 two seat sports car.

Doesn't Porsche have a gas guzzling V10? And BMW? What kind of mileage does the Ferrari Enzo get? The 08 ACR beats them all in the mileage department and is a respectable competitor in performance, at a forth or even less of the cost. No disrespect meant towards the Euro super cars, just replying to the initial comparison.

Targeting the international market can mean lotsa things.
 

MikeR

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Doesn't Porsche have a gas guzzling V10? And BMW? What kind of mileage does the Ferrari Enzo get? The 08 ACR beats them all in the mileage department and is a respectable competitor in performance, at a forth or even less of the cost. No disrespect meant towards the Euro super cars, just replying to the initial comparison.

Targeting the international market can mean lotsa things.

Porsche GT is discontinued. But still there are Lambo's and others with V10's. There have been 12 cylinders and cars with worse freeway mileage then the Viper. Everybody is so quick to knock the Viper and its massive V10, yet we are probably less then 1% to blame for smog and gas guzzling. All my other cars have more miles in one year then the Viper in almost 3 years.

Someday maybe the media will figure this out and quit bagging the Viper.
 

RMBSRT

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Doesn't Porsche have a gas guzzling V10? And BMW? What kind of mileage does the Ferrari Enzo get? The 08 ACR beats them all in the mileage department and is a respectable competitor in performance, at a forth or even less of the cost. No disrespect meant towards the Euro super cars, just replying to the initial comparison.

Targeting the international market can mean lotsa things.

Well for Cerebus it does not mean high end sports cars. They are looking for VOLUME to be able to cash flow the business. Chrysler needs a high volume hit soon or things are going to get tighter.

Cash is king at Cerebus and they are not going to throw R&D money torwards a big gas V10. The volume market has changed torwards smaller displacement, hybrid drives, CVT transmissions. I do not see a HUGE demand for a 8 liter V10 motor in the future.

Cerebus will leverage the money spent by Diamler on the new motor for the current Viper. Once its usefulness runs out, the V10 will be gone...maybe not the Viper, but the V10 is bye bye....:cool:
 

Jay Herbert

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The Next Generation Viper is certainly going to have a tough "row-to-***".

Sadly, Herb's retirement may say more than anything.

VOI.10(?) will have to push all the right buttons, at a minimal cost to Cerberus, to help the Vipers case as we've lost many of our high level corporate patrons to retirement. VOI.10 will have to build some new ones if we want another generation Viper!

With the tighter EPA requirements and higher milage requirements, our V-10 might have to learn to run on half its cylinders (sometimes).

If Hillary gets elected, we'll all be driving around on Mopeds anyway. Please don't forget the first thing her hubby did was raise gasoline taxes....... or did she raise the gas tax, only her barber knows for sure. ;)
 

Lee00blacksilverGTS

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Herbs retirement may only be about retaining his current retirement plan, others have done the same, it's a REALLY good retirement plan which will no doubt be cut quickly.
Sadly there is no difference between all the remaining candidates as to their dislike of gas guzzling monsters. They all want 50 mpg average so we really do not have a choice this time regarding that.
 

Y2K5SRT

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Sadly there is no difference between all the remaining candidates as to their dislike of gas guzzling monsters. They all want 50 mpg average so we really do not have a choice this time regarding that.
Well, nobody but Herb and his family knows for sure the full reasons behind his early retirement. That said, some folks say that it was a "limited time only" offer that he would have been foolish to pass up - no matter how much you loved the car or its future.

As for the gas guzzling issues, remember that the CAFE standards apply to fleet averages. Certainly they don't expect your Hummer to get 35 MPG nor your Lamborghini for that matter. Historically they have based this on the number of vehicles sold with a given gas mileage. For simple math's sake, it went like this:
  • You sold 95 cars getting an average of 30 MPG
  • You sold five cars getting an average of 10 MPG
So does that mean they average 20 MPG? Nope! That means that you averaged 29 MPG on the 100 cars you sold. Now, in 2007 Chrysler LLC sold just over two million vehicles. While they didn't build Vipers in 2007, historically they sell around 1600 per year. That means that Viper sales represent less than 1/10th of one percent of Chrysler's production. It could get 1 MPG and wouldn't even make a dimple on the overall CAFE averages.

On the other hand, while it represents less than 1/10th of 1% of production, it represents at least 20% of Chrysler's recognition and 50% of Dodge in particular. Run a series of flash cards showing cars with no badging and I will bet that you see those numbers when they see a Viper. 80% of the Chrysler line will be hard to name and 50% of the Dodge line will be the same. Throw out the same models with different brands (Grand Caravan/Town & Country, Aspen/Durango, Sebring/Avenger, Nitro/Liberty, etc.) and you only have a handful of recognizable cars, of which the Viper is most prominent followed by distinctive cars such as the 300 and Charger. Will the Challenger be a recognized car for Dodge? Of course it will. But if it sells 50,000 copies a year then it will have 30 times the impact on CAFE standards as the Viper and should be 30 times as vulnerable unless it can deliver a lot closer to 35 MPG.

The bottom line is that while the Viper is little more than an asterisk on CAFE standards and profit margins for Chrysler as a whole, it represents a HUGE impact on the psyche of car buyers everywhere. While Chrysler has failed to leverage that impact outside of the Viper owner community (the latter of which we are grateful for I can assure you), the Viper continues to represent all the great things an American car company can do. Kids flock to see them, US military events beg to have them, magazines flaunt them, and thousands of companies use them in advertisements - even when the manufacturer doesn't.

Personally I think that the Viper sells more cars than every Dodge NASCAR team combined. The ol' adage of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" applied when the cars actually looked like production cars and you could drive what the winner drove. Now they all look the same and the only thing that distinguishes them is their main sponsor (car colors) and the driver. When Tony Stewart wins, the fans wear Home Depot jerseys and hats. Many don't even realize who manufactures the "generic" car he won with. Does anybody really believe they will sell a lot more Camrys when he drives Toyota this year? If so, then Chrysler is completely lost as NASCAR is one of the last bastions of jingoistic American fervor.

Oh, Cerberus is definitely all about the money - nobody will debate that. But sometimes you can actually make money by leveraging your marketing to its full extent to increase company recognition and resulting sales. Cerberus hired a marketing Dream Team for Chrysler - Jim Press and Deborah Wahl Meyer. While we can say that the Viper is doomed by CAFE standards and other nonsense that doesn't apply, the fact is that unless the Dream Team realizes the marketing value of this icon then its days truly are numbered. So it is up to the fans and owners of the Viper to make sure they know it.
 

Boxer12

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Dodge should just ramp up and build 4 yrs supply of snakes, and all will be fine until '11. A 4 yr run of '08's is not the end of the world. Tuners will continue to evolve, so whattheheck.
 

MoparMan

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Dodge should just ramp up and build 4 yrs supply of snakes, and all will be fine until '11. A 4 yr run of '08's is not the end of the world. Tuners will continue to evolve, so whattheheck.

After three years of the gen III 'vert sales were slipping and the opinion that something needed to be changed was more and more frequently posted. Enter the coupe for '06 and the complaints quieted, but 5 more years of the same body style will bring very slow sales and lots of complaints by the end, despite the 100 HP increase. It's going to be a tough task to sell the '08 for four model years without any changes.
 

Vic

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Best analysis of the business model! 5 stars for comprehensive thought!:2tu:

Well, nobody but Herb and his family knows for sure the full reasons behind his early retirement. That said, some folks say that it was a "limited time only" offer that he would have been foolish to pass up - no matter how much you loved the car or its future.

As for the gas guzzling issues, remember that the CAFE standards apply to fleet averages. Certainly they don't expect your Hummer to get 35 MPG nor your Lamborghini for that matter. Historically they have based this on the number of vehicles sold with a given gas mileage. For simple math's sake, it went like this:
  • You sold 95 cars getting an average of 30 MPG
  • You sold five cars getting an average of 10 MPG
So does that mean they average 20 MPG? Nope! That means that you averaged 29 MPG on the 100 cars you sold. Now, in 2007 Chrysler LLC sold just over two million vehicles. While they didn't build Vipers in 2007, historically they sell around 1600 per year. That means that Viper sales represent less than 1/10th of one percent of Chrysler's production. It could get 1 MPG and wouldn't even make a dimple on the overall CAFE averages.

On the other hand, while it represents less than 1/10th of 1% of production, it represents at least 20% of Chrysler's recognition and 50% of Dodge in particular. Run a series of flash cards showing cars with no badging and I will bet that you see those numbers when they see a Viper. 80% of the Chrysler line will be hard to name and 50% of the Dodge line will be the same. Throw out the same models with different brands (Grand Caravan/Town & Country, Aspen/Durango, Sebring/Avenger, Nitro/Liberty, etc.) and you only have a handful of recognizable cars, of which the Viper is most prominent followed by distinctive cars such as the 300 and Charger. Will the Challenger be a recognized car for Dodge? Of course it will. But if it sells 50,000 copies a year then it will have 30 times the impact on CAFE standards as the Viper and should be 30 times as vulnerable unless it can deliver a lot closer to 35 MPG.

The bottom line is that while the Viper is little more than an asterisk on CAFE standards and profit margins for Chrysler as a whole, it represents a HUGE impact on the psyche of car buyers everywhere. While Chrysler has failed to leverage that impact outside of the Viper owner community (the latter of which we are grateful I can assure you), the Viper continues to represent all the great things an American car company can do. Kids flock to see them, US military events beg to have them, magazines flaunt them, and thousands of companies use them in advertisements - even when the manufacturer doesn't.

Personally I think that the Viper sells more cars than every Dodge NASCAR team combined. The ol' adage of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" applied when the cars actually looked like production cars and you could drive what the winner drove. Now they all look the same and the only thing that distinguishes them is their main sponsor (car colors) and the driver. When Tony Stewart wins, the fans wear Home Depot jerseys and hats. Many don't even realize who manufactures the "generic" car he won with. Does anybody really believe they will sell a lot more Camrys when he drives Toyota this year? If so, then Chrysler is completely lost as NASCAR is one of the last bastions of jingoistic American fervor.

Oh, Cerberus is definitely all about the money - nobody will debate that. But sometimes you can actually make money by leveraging your marketing to its full extent to increase company recognition and resulting sales. Cerberus hired a marketing Dream Team for Chrysler - Jim Press and Deborah Wahl Meyer. While we can say that the Viper is doomed by CAFE standards and other nonsense that doesn't apply, the fact is that unless the Dream Team realizes the marketing value of this icon then its days truly are numbered. So it is up to the fans and owners of the Viper to make sure they know it.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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I do not see a HUGE demand for a 8 liter V10 motor in the future.

The same thing was said about big motors in the early 70s.

And no doubt Lutz and gang heard the same thing in the early 90s.

There will always be a demand for big cubes no matter what gas prices or CAFE dictates. The Viper isn't about pleasing the masses, that's Corvette's job.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Excellent analysis Chris.

Well, nobody but Herb and his family knows for sure the full reasons behind his early retirement. That said, some folks say that it was a "limited time only" offer that he would have been foolish to pass up - no matter how much you loved the car or its future.

As for the gas guzzling issues, remember that the CAFE standards apply to fleet averages. Certainly they don't expect your Hummer to get 35 MPG nor your Lamborghini for that matter. Historically they have based this on the number of vehicles sold with a given gas mileage. For simple math's sake, it went like this:
  • You sold 95 cars getting an average of 30 MPG
  • You sold five cars getting an average of 10 MPG
So does that mean they average 20 MPG? Nope! That means that you averaged 29 MPG on the 100 cars you sold. Now, in 2007 Chrysler LLC sold just over two million vehicles. While they didn't build Vipers in 2007, historically they sell around 1600 per year. That means that Viper sales represent less than 1/10th of one percent of Chrysler's production. It could get 1 MPG and wouldn't even make a dimple on the overall CAFE averages.

On the other hand, while it represents less than 1/10th of 1% of production, it represents at least 20% of Chrysler's recognition and 50% of Dodge in particular. Run a series of flash cards showing cars with no badging and I will bet that you see those numbers when they see a Viper. 80% of the Chrysler line will be hard to name and 50% of the Dodge line will be the same. Throw out the same models with different brands (Grand Caravan/Town & Country, Aspen/Durango, Sebring/Avenger, Nitro/Liberty, etc.) and you only have a handful of recognizable cars, of which the Viper is most prominent followed by distinctive cars such as the 300 and Charger. Will the Challenger be a recognized car for Dodge? Of course it will. But if it sells 50,000 copies a year then it will have 30 times the impact on CAFE standards as the Viper and should be 30 times as vulnerable unless it can deliver a lot closer to 35 MPG.

The bottom line is that while the Viper is little more than an asterisk on CAFE standards and profit margins for Chrysler as a whole, it represents a HUGE impact on the psyche of car buyers everywhere. While Chrysler has failed to leverage that impact outside of the Viper owner community (the latter of which we are grateful for I can assure you), the Viper continues to represent all the great things an American car company can do. Kids flock to see them, US military events beg to have them, magazines flaunt them, and thousands of companies use them in advertisements - even when the manufacturer doesn't.

Personally I think that the Viper sells more cars than every Dodge NASCAR team combined. The ol' adage of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" applied when the cars actually looked like production cars and you could drive what the winner drove. Now they all look the same and the only thing that distinguishes them is their main sponsor (car colors) and the driver. When Tony Stewart wins, the fans wear Home Depot jerseys and hats. Many don't even realize who manufactures the "generic" car he won with. Does anybody really believe they will sell a lot more Camrys when he drives Toyota this year? If so, then Chrysler is completely lost as NASCAR is one of the last bastions of jingoistic American fervor.

Oh, Cerberus is definitely all about the money - nobody will debate that. But sometimes you can actually make money by leveraging your marketing to its full extent to increase company recognition and resulting sales. Cerberus hired a marketing Dream Team for Chrysler - Jim Press and Deborah Wahl Meyer. While we can say that the Viper is doomed by CAFE standards and other nonsense that doesn't apply, the fact is that unless the Dream Team realizes the marketing value of this icon then its days truly are numbered. So it is up to the fans and owners of the Viper to make sure they know it.
 

Jay Herbert

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Chris is spot on about the corporate AVERAGE fuel economy, it goes without saying that our V-10 will never be a high mileage engine, and it's impact on Chrysler's CAFE is zip. One thing that has not been mentioned here is emissions. The last engine revision stretched the envelope using the cam-in-cam to meet the current emissions standards, our V-10 will need huge leap in technology to meet the upcoming emissions standards.

There is no doubt the Viper is about marketing, pure and simple. It was only "profitable" the years they ran the factory at rates far exceeding demand.

The factory needs another product to cover its overhead, the loss of the SRT Ram engine sales certainly did not help in that department. Hopefully there will be another vehicle to share CAAP soon.

The Viper has ALWAYS been profitable when it's impact on the rest of the line is factored in, I never owned a Chrysler vehicle before the Viper came along, I'm on my third minivan, and have a Dakota and a Ram to got along with the Viper. That is the value of the Viper to Cerberus.

Just my opinion, VOI this time around should be an event showing Cerberus how much WE love Vipers, and an event aimed at getting folks like Jim Press EXCITED about what Vipers do for the corporate image and sales of other Chrysler vehicles.
 

bluestreak

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I think they are doing the perfect thing for the situation right now, the Viper program hasnt been killed altogether because they will still be in production, and therefore people will buy and race them and the viper will live, but with no more developement. This way they can cut everything but actual production costs of the Viper, and when the company/economy is more healthy, they can then persue at any time between now and then the growth of the Viper. So what you see is what you'll get for the next several years, 2003-2011 is 8 years, so a little longer than the average life span of a vehicle generation, maybe a little long for sports cars, but there isnt really anywhere for the Viper to go, unless they want to do the unforgiveable to the old people, "refine it".
 

Lee00blacksilverGTS

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2008 to 2011 is FOUR years, just about right for GENERATION 4. You don't add all the changes they made plus another 100HP and then lump it all together in one generation from 2003 to 2011. It's been pretty much officially accepted that this is a new Gen. HUGE difference btween an 03 convertible and an 08.
 

MoparMan

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2008 to 2011 is FOUR years, just about right for GENERATION 4. You don't add all the changes they made plus another 100HP and then lump it all together in one generation from 2003 to 2011. It's been pretty much officially accepted that this is a new Gen. HUGE difference btween an 03 convertible and an 08.

I agree with everything you said, but it's still the same body for 9 model years ('03-'11) which will make it a tough sell, especially to those buyers not completely up on the Viper.
 

MoparMan

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Correction...8 model years (no 07's). ;)

Absolutely right, my mistake, but still 9 years of sales for that body style as some dealers were still moving out new '06 cars when the '08 began production. Definitely, the coupe was the shot in the arm that was needed after the '05 MY. I'm just questioning how viable the current body will still be in the '11 MY.
 

Andrew/USPWR

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I for one like the fact that they don't change body styles every five years. Who out there has bought a new car only to find they change the body style changed and, now your new car is last years model?

People who bought the 03 are still driving the current body style 5 years later. To me that's value.
 

MoparMan

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I for one like the fact that they don't change body styles every five years. Who out there has bought a new car only to find they change the body style changed and, now your new car is last years model?

People who bought the 03 are still driving the current body style 5 years later. To me that's value.

Glad to hear the opposite viewpoint. For Chrysler's sake, I hope that your viewpoint is prevalent and that it helps sell alot of Vipers.
 

Y2K10 SRT#39

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What the heck did he say? "one of the last bastions of jingoistic American fervor".
Perhaps he has finally gone off the deep end EH?

Well 4 more years or not, I'll buy an '09 ACR just because I fear they will cut it short before I can choose the color I want.

They could always put a 6.1 hemi in the viper chassis and call it....Hmmmm the FIREPOWER!!!! (Where can we find money for body tooling?) That would make CAAP more viable!:usa:

Just my $.02

PBR
 

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