Odd ? about track days & overcoming cornering fears

[JasonSSG]

This may sound like a strange question but this is the problem Im facing on my track day. Last year was my first experience on a track..needless to say Im hooked. I use Contour cameras (similair to Go-Pro) that have built in GPS that records speed, track position, ect. After reviewing my videos Im simply not taking the cornering speeds high enough. What I have, what I know, the limiting factor is, is my fear of tire adhesion, when I start to hear the tires squeal I assume their at the traction limit and hold steady (or back off), I know these tires have so much more left in them, (GEN 4 Mich Pilots, Not an ACR), is there any recommendation on how to overcome this? Since my windows have to be rolled down, (so I hear the screeching) I was thinking of having head phones in with music (I know...not the safest idea) or turning the radio up, any other ideas? Just need something

 

[REDSLED]

Why not hire an instructor? Leave the headphones at home.

 

[Drew]

Redsled...spot on advice

 

[JasonSSG]

I guess a glass of wine and recommended instructor...what else is everyone gonna do?

 

[01sapphirebob]

Why not hire an instructor? Leave the headphones at home.

This. An instructor will take you to your limit and push you just a little bit past it without even realizing it.

 

[canadian venom]

I guess a glass of wine QUOTE]

 

[Steve M]

When the tires are squealing at you, they are trying to tell you something. Turning up the radio to ignore that might not be the best idea.

 

[Allan]

Do not lift throttle abruptly in a turn. That will induce 'trailing throttle oversteer', and possibly spin the car.

You are doing it right by learning on street tires. The squealing is good, do not be afraid of that. (be afraid of the car and your ability to handle it)

Race compound tires don't communicate like that, so stay with the street tires until you've had some instruction, and are 99% confident in your ability.
(That last 1% of doubt is what will keep you from killing yourself. -the minute you think you are 100% in control of a Viper, that's when the car will teach you otherwise.....don't ask how I know.)

Street tires will squeal when getting into the desired 'slip angle'. That is the limit of usable traction for the given tire. -Right before it's gone, and just a little before that. Thats where you want to be. Street tires are great for learning because of all that noise. Listen to it carefully and pay attention to it. The subtle nuances of the tires communicating with you, about where they are in traction, or lack of it. A nice steady constant, non-varying, tire squeal is your goal. Varying degrees of intensity while you are sawing at the wheel, and up and down on the throttle is bad. Slow, steady, smooth inputs to the car will get you through the corners quick without incident. Also driving the proper line will help. If you have no idea what 'the line' is, like others have said, get an instructor.

Vipers require skilled handlers to be driven fast on a track. And that's what makes them so rewarding. There are some other cars that are fast, and maybe faster than yours, (modded,non-street legal, whatever) but the driving experience of a Viper at the limit is like no other.

Again, the squealing is a tool to help you learn. Not a bad thing. If you change brand of tires, they will squeal differently, and you will have to 'learn their language'. If you put R-comp tires on the car, you will have to depend on skill and a 'higher developed sense' of where the limit is, because R-comps don't talk. -A new sense of fear......don't ask how I know.

Enjoy the car, and your new found addiction, be safe.
-Allan

 

[TowDawg]

As others have said, get time with an instructor. YOU might be making the tires squeal when they shouldn't be by how you are taking the turn itself. I guess what I'm saying is that the tires might be at their adheasion limit for how you are driving (so you don't want to ignore that), but there is probably a lot more speed to be had by taking the line differently.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Attend some autocrosses, there you will have nothing but cornering and you will be able to feel how the car breaks away at the limit. The rapid succession of transitions will upset the car rapidly (it will teach you about weight transfer quickly also) and you will have to feel your way through. The plus side is that you can do this without fear of damaging anything. When you get back to the track everything will seem slow in comparison and you will be able to concentrate better at the limit and beyond. There is an old saying (in autocross circles LOL) "If autocross was any easier it would be called road racing". There have been a ton of autocrossers that have excelled and then moved to road racing only to end up on top there also, not so much the other way around. FWIW

Or go with the instructor idea if that suits you better.

 

[ACR_VP]

Saw you were in Dayton. I recommend the mid-ohio school. Brother got it for me as a wedding gift. Absolutely fantastic experience. I would actually recommend using their cars as well... Easier to learn or give validation to your skills when you're following pro's with the exact same car/setup. Then go again with the Viper and instructor. Do an autocross so you have the opportunity to spin out more.

A squealing tire is a happy tire. A screaming tire is not

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Steve and Allan are spot on, since the squealing just means the tires are talking to you. It is a conversation you will learn more and more about and learning on street tires is , as noted, probably the best way to start. No worries, we all had concerns about the limits of the tires when we started and frankly it is healthy even after years of track experience to continue to work at conquering those limits -- and having respect for them when is not quite comfortable.

 

[TrackAire]

One of the best things you can do is put a qualified instructor in the drivers seat and ride along with him. Having an instructor drive you around the track then sitting next to you will put you miles ahead of where you are today. It will show you how fast your car can actually go safely and verify what the correct line around the track is.

My Hoosier R6's are very quite and the first time I had them on the track I was a little tentative since I expected some squeal so I could gauge my limit.

Lastly, check your alignment. A more track aggressive alignment might keep your tires a little more quiet at higher cornering speeds and limits. It might also help with your cornering fears as you may actually be feeling a car that is not stable and hence you're slowing down since it doesn't feel right.

Cheers,
George

 

[DMan]

You want that nice steady squeal with those tires, target should be to keep it the same & not hear it come & go. Like others say, go to a trackday where they provide an optional instructor. AutoX is great if you can find one with a larger layout. I've found in MD they're tiny and so they teach you how not to drive the car. On a good one, like the ones they had at VOI, you can push it to the limit and then keep going til it lets go, so you can feel it without worrying about a wall or gravel. I've gone out on a huge parking lot, without light polls or curb risks, and sway the car around in 2nd, drifting and playing, you get a great sense of the car. You've got a gen4 and the differential is amazing in these cars. I find the feel is well transmitted and if you don't panic off the throttle, you can drift it to settle if she slips on you, but you've got to get used to it, just find a way ... AutoX, huge & safe parking lot, etc., then an instructor would be perfect progression IMO. Enjoy, but sounds like you already are!

 

[gb66gth]

A squealing tire is a happy tire.
When you're squealing and sliding ever so slightly, that's the dance. That's where you get to practice your car control and steering with the gas pedal. I love that spot, but it takes time and practice to get comfortable there.
Proper instruction or racing school is so valuable. It will give you a good understanding of vehicle dynamics and seat time, seat time seat time.

 

[Richie7]

Seat time...
Ride with instructors
Have them ride with you
More seat time

 

[Allan]

One of the best things you can do is put a qualified instructor in the drivers seat and ride along with him. Having an instructor drive you around the track then sitting next to you will put you miles ahead of where you are today. It will show you how fast your car can actually go safely and verify what the correct line around the track is.

My Hoosier R6's are very quite and the first time I had them on the track I was a little tentative since I expected some squeal so I could gauge my limit.

Lastly, check your alignment. A more track aggressive alignment might keep your tires a little more quiet at higher cornering speeds and limits. It might also help with your cornering fears as you may actually be feeling a car that is not stable and hence you're slowing down since it doesn't feel right.

Cheers,
George

The track alignment does wonders for the car's cornering ability, driver confidence, and tire wear. But, for me personally, I didn't notice any difference in the intensity of the tire noise.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

One of the best things you can do is put a qualified instructor in the drivers seat and ride along with him. Having an instructor drive you around the track then sitting next to you will put you miles ahead of where you are today. It will show you how fast your car can actually go safely and verify what the correct line around the track is.

George has given you probably the best advice on how to pick up the learning curve. I was at Willow Springs one day early in my road racing days kicking my tire say why the f*** won't you go faster. Paul Mumford overheard me and said for me to take a seat as a passenger, what he showed me next was mind blowing and I have applied it ever since.

 

[bushido]

What RedSled said about having an instructor in the car..

For me what really helped me hone in my driving skills. Was buying a Kart. Yes a go kart. Since track days don't happen every week.You can practice your skills in a kart. IMO going out to track day events a few times a year you won't learn,improve much. In a kart you get the feel of everything. From sliding,counter steering , to braking etc.Not to mention the Gs you pull. It's all about improving your confidence.. Cars feel sloppy after you had a good workout in a Kart..

 

[Sonoman]

Agree with Bushido... if you have access to a kart track, they are definitely a hoot and common path taken by road racing pros. Here at Sonoma Raceway, the kart facility is open almost every day, and when the Ferrari Challenge Series came to Sonoma years ago, one of their directors dragged a bunch of the racers up to the kart track and stated: "THIS is the way to improve your driving skills!" while they were checking out my shiny new Birel DD2 (Ferrari red, of course).

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[Sarge]

I work with a couple of track day HPDE organizations as an instructor in New England. We do not get paid so there is no cost to the participants beyond the track day. Take a ride and then drive with an instructor. You'll learn a lot in short period of time making your experiences much more enjoyable.

Good luck and enjoy learning.

 

[FrankBarba]

Go to a good Drivers School. Miller Motorsports Park, and another good one is in Parump.

 

[Shandon]

No, on the headphones or Radio.. Learn to love that sound of those Squeels, chirps. Always tell yourself "squealing doesnt mean im leaving the track". Take your time and fear is a good healthy thing to have when learning to drive a Viper on track.

I found the best way to learn cornering (for me) began with learning to brake hard and consistently. I started with pushing my fear of how well the car could stop and that begins with keeping the throttle all the way to the floor and decreasing my braking point. That in itself started my love of late apexing most corners and using the massive torque and large contact patch these cars have to dig in and hammer out onto the next straight. Seat time, Instructors and Schools, all will bring a new found level of confidence. I have run in Acuras and Covettes on track with driving schools and they are so fun and so much easier to drive on track. Learning to handle a Viper is a slow progression and as you approach the limits you will find the car will absolutely shine.

 

[impalassed]

all good advice!

I would add that a ride with an instructor need not be at speed. I was able to ride along during a track touring session over a lunch break with one. Since all were required to keep to a 50 mph and under it was much easier to see the line and where to be rather than try to grasp at speed during a ride along. Putting myself in the right place at they right time allowed me to be faster. Shaved several seconds off in the afternoon sessions.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Re: all good advice!

Easy, foot is either on the gas or the brake at all times, no coasting!!! Slow in = fast out.

 

[bushido]

Agree with Bushido... if you have access to a kart track, they are definitely a hoot and common path taken by road racing pros. Here at Sonoma Raceway, the kart facility is open almost every day, and when the Ferrari Challenge Series came to Sonoma years ago, one of their directors dragged a bunch of the racers up to the kart track and stated: "THIS is the way to improve your driving skills!" while they were checking out my shiny new Birel DD2 (Ferrari red, of course).

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Sweet Kart man! My Italkart, PRD 125..

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[SlateEd]

Agree with all of what's been said already (and learning some more from some of it)
as someone who is closer to the OPs end of the spectrum than the experienced racers I would agree the instructors have helped me quite a bit.

I would also add that the fear is really in the unpredictability at such a high limit of grip, so I've taken the opportunity a few times to embrace a wet start to a track day... if you have a chance to go out on a wet track surface you won't learn from squealing tires, but you will get the "seat of the pants" feel of a balanced slip at much lower speeds. (that's with the caveat that I was using PS2s at the time)

 

[Leslie]

There's a group of us that run Mid OH in Lexington, OH.

PM me if you want our schedule. I would enjoy riding with you if you like I instruct with PCA and CHIN Motorsport.

I run on street tires, have for 9 yrs in my GenII, and they talk a LOT! Haha.

 

[Allan]

There's a group of us that run Mid OH in Lexington, OH.

PM me if you want our schedule. I would enjoy riding with you if you like I instruct with PCA and CHIN Motorsport.

I run on street tires, have for 9 yrs in my GenII, and they talk a LOT! Haha.

What tires are you running? and why?

 

[Leslie]

I run Toyo R888's, primarily because they are street legal and I find stickier on the track than other tires I have tried.

I have had a challenge finding18's all around