TexasSnake
Enthusiast
Are these products safe for your car...products such as 104 octane boost sold at any auto parts or Wal-Mart?
Over the counter octane boost...
- Thread starter TexasSnake
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TexasSnake
Enthusiast
Thanks for the info...I'm going to go around to all the auto part stores and buy as many bottles as I can and fill my tank up with nothing but that stuff. I'll let you know how well it works.
By the way do have $3000.00 dollars I can borrow...I'm guessing this is somewhere in the ballpark of what it will cost.
rcl4668
Enthusiast
I was wondering the same thing. I have an 08 Viper and need to boost the octane from 92 to 93. How many bottle(s) of the booster would I need?
Tere
Enthusiast
If (and only if) you have a detonation issue, and higher octane gas is not available, you have two choices:
1. Richen up your air/fuel ratio (and lose hp)
2. Increase octane (and stay lean)
The simplest (and cheapest) way if higher octane is not available is to add one gallon of toluene to the gas tank (fill the rest of the tank with 93 octane). This will boost your octane rating to slightly over 94. Two gallons of toluene will up the rating of the gas in a full tank to almost 95.5. Don't get toluene on your paint -- it's paint thinner and pure toluene is rated at 114 octane. Don't run more than 80% toluene. Xylene can also be used -- also paint thinner. Chemically, both toluene and xylene are built on the benzene ring -- benzene is pretty hazardous stuff.
Now the question is, what caused your engine to run lean in the first place -- did you go forced induction without improving your fuel system. Most unmodified cars run slightly rich at high rpm to be on the safe side -- my '06 Viper does.
Octane Myth to Kill: Higher octane does not of itself give you more hp, unless you lean down your air/fuel ratio -- higher octane only allows you to run a leaner and meaner engine without blowing it up.
1. Richen up your air/fuel ratio (and lose hp)
2. Increase octane (and stay lean)
The simplest (and cheapest) way if higher octane is not available is to add one gallon of toluene to the gas tank (fill the rest of the tank with 93 octane). This will boost your octane rating to slightly over 94. Two gallons of toluene will up the rating of the gas in a full tank to almost 95.5. Don't get toluene on your paint -- it's paint thinner and pure toluene is rated at 114 octane. Don't run more than 80% toluene. Xylene can also be used -- also paint thinner. Chemically, both toluene and xylene are built on the benzene ring -- benzene is pretty hazardous stuff.
Now the question is, what caused your engine to run lean in the first place -- did you go forced induction without improving your fuel system. Most unmodified cars run slightly rich at high rpm to be on the safe side -- my '06 Viper does.
Octane Myth to Kill: Higher octane does not of itself give you more hp, unless you lean down your air/fuel ratio -- higher octane only allows you to run a leaner and meaner engine without blowing it up.
rcl4668
Enthusiast
I just posted this in the other thread but it's relevant here as well:
Thanks for the feedback Bruce. Is this the NOS product you used: Octane Boosters - NOS Racing Formula Octane Booster (12 oz.) ?
Also, interesting article that actually did some testing on NOS and some other octane boosters:
Octane Boosters Testing - Tech Review - European Car Magazine
The full table for the NOS test is here: [media]http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/8928718/0503ec_techboost_chart2.jpg[/media]
So according to this chart, adding .8 fl oz of the NOS racing formula to 1 gal of California's Shell 91 octane resulted in an increase to 93.7 octane. So assuming a Viper fuel tank is 16 gallons, I would need approximately 12 fluid ounces, which by chance is the bottle content of the NOS racing formula. Since I am starting at 92 octane here in Oregon, I assume the "after" octane number would be actually higher, around the 94 mark.
Of course complicating the question is that on pages 177-178 the 2008 owners manual recommends against using additives that contain MMT or methanol. The NOS racing formula uses MMT.
Thanks for the feedback Bruce. Is this the NOS product you used: Octane Boosters - NOS Racing Formula Octane Booster (12 oz.) ?
Also, interesting article that actually did some testing on NOS and some other octane boosters:
Octane Boosters Testing - Tech Review - European Car Magazine
The full table for the NOS test is here: [media]http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/8928718/0503ec_techboost_chart2.jpg[/media]
So according to this chart, adding .8 fl oz of the NOS racing formula to 1 gal of California's Shell 91 octane resulted in an increase to 93.7 octane. So assuming a Viper fuel tank is 16 gallons, I would need approximately 12 fluid ounces, which by chance is the bottle content of the NOS racing formula. Since I am starting at 92 octane here in Oregon, I assume the "after" octane number would be actually higher, around the 94 mark.
Of course complicating the question is that on pages 177-178 the 2008 owners manual recommends against using additives that contain MMT or methanol. The NOS racing formula uses MMT.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
I need a button that calls me - I rarely look in this forum.
Plum's answer is correct. There is no industry or technical body oversight for aftermarket products (includes all fuel injector cleaners, fuel system cleaners, octane boosters, oil additives, etc) and so performance claims are "enhanced" in an attempt to out-claim their competitors.
MMT, like tetraethyl lead, is a metallic compound that the US government has banned for safety and catalyst compatibility reasons. It will leave a tell-tale orange stain on spark plugs and pistons (in case you have an engine issue and return to the dealer, they will know immediately.)
Toluene is indeed a higher octane component but as a gasoline component also raises the volumetric average boiling point. You may experience slightly harder starting or driveability issues while the engine warms up. Misfires and stumbles may trigger a yellow dash light. (This was a major fuel component that caused Honda F1 team to preheat the fuel back in the days when exotic fuels were allowed.)
My old '94 says 91 octane minimum. Does the '08 say anything different? It would not be like the OEMs to require an octane grade that is not very widely available.
rcl4668
Enthusiast
Tom -- thanks; the info you posted seems to weigh against using the boosters. Also, the 2008 owners manual confirms that 91 is the minimum octane rating for the Viper.
Darbgnik
Enthusiast
I would think that the use of 93 or higher would only be necessary with an extreme tune, also I think the 08 Mopar Race ECU recommends 93. That factory car runs on 91.
rcl4668
Enthusiast
My questions stem specifically from the possible purchase of the Mopar UCU which does require 93 octane.
Tere
Enthusiast
I forgot to mention option 3 to my previous post -- reduce compression. Only a viable option if you're going forced induction and want to run at high boost levels. The '06 Viper has 9.6:1 compression -- a decent compression for pretty good boost on pump gas as long as the fuel system is upgraded. On the other hand, the '08/'09 Vipers are over 10:1 (I forgot the exact number). This makes the '08/'09s more susceptible to detonation with heavy modifications without modifying the fuel system. Any time you're working big time modification, include fuel pressure and wide band O2 in your gauge array.
#4. pinging can be stopped by decreasing the timing advance. Higher Octane means more timing advance (higher hp) before detonation occurs.
Even older Vipers with 9.5 to 1 compression ratios require 91 octane.
Ted
As far as not enough mixing or too much additives, My buddy had a SS Hemi GTX and being short on time poured his can of Moroso Octane Booster (probably no longer available) directly into the fuel tank, then while doing a waterburnout his pistons all tried to go down through his oil pan. I did mostly the same thing, but shook the car, did 'hops' and THEN bent my crankshaft.
Not a lot more power, but definite engine destruction.
I think that product was too toxic for modern public useage.
Probably banned for lead. I remember when our gas used to contain lead and be high octane.
Ted
Not a lot more power, but definite engine destruction.
I think that product was too toxic for modern public useage.
Probably banned for lead. I remember when our gas used to contain lead and be high octane.
Ted
Tere
Enthusiast
Yep, that too! Most of the cars out there nowadays have knock sensors that give you a ******** engine!
This is easy. Call around, find a local shop that sells race fuel. Go to shop with 5X2 gallon jugs. Fill all 5 jugs. When you need fuel, add 2 gallons of race fuel (114) to your 10 gallons (or so) of 91.
Do the math and decide what octane you want after it blends...
Do the math and decide what octane you want after it blends...
wallbanger
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final octane is 94.8
rcl4668
Enthusiast
OKViper --
Bear with me as neither fuel nor math are my strong suite: As I posted before, here in Oregon we have 92 octane premium fuel. My 08 Viper has a 16 gal fuel tank. I do know of a place in the Portland, Ore. area that does sell race fuels. (For any other locals out there it's Deluxe Fuel Oil, 1013 NE 62nd Ave, Portland, OR 97213, 503-287-6688.) So what would I need to buy octanewise and what volume would I need just to get safely from 92 to 93 octane? Thanks for your help.
/Rich
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Correct! For the most part, octane blending is an arithmatic average of the two components. That's why a 12 oz can of anything isn't going to change the tank average.
This is blending "components" which are usually thought of as things in whole percentages (i.e. greater than 1%.)
Using "additives" is usually in parts per million or the arcane oil company units of "pounds per thousand barrels" or PTB. Tetra ethyl lead and detergents are additives.
10 gal x 91 octane = 910
2 gal x 114 octane = 228
910 + 228 = 1138
1138 / 12 gal = 94.833 octane
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Dude...Octane is rated as a fuels ability to resist detonation...
Yes.
Higher the octane rating, the harder it is to detonate, meaning "explode", due to heat and cylinder pressure, prior to the spark plug actually firing that cylinder. That is the real issue.
Yes.
All octane booster ****. Yes ..I like Toluene...You can get it by the gallon at any hardware store, in the paint section...Comes in a one gallon metal can. $9...Has an octane rating of 114 and an energy rating of 30 never heard of "energy rating"...So it burns clean. aromatic rings don't really burn cleanly in a typical production engine (including V-10s), and therefore they are now limited by the EPA..I put one gallon in with 16 - 17 gallons in the Viper.
Gasoline is *mostly* Toluene anyway. No...But if you can get 95, just use that. Anything more would be a complete and total waste Yes, with your application, and actually reduce performance. Yes
Yes.
Higher the octane rating, the harder it is to detonate, meaning "explode", due to heat and cylinder pressure, prior to the spark plug actually firing that cylinder. That is the real issue.
Yes.
All octane booster ****. Yes ..I like Toluene...You can get it by the gallon at any hardware store, in the paint section...Comes in a one gallon metal can. $9...Has an octane rating of 114 and an energy rating of 30 never heard of "energy rating"...So it burns clean. aromatic rings don't really burn cleanly in a typical production engine (including V-10s), and therefore they are now limited by the EPA..I put one gallon in with 16 - 17 gallons in the Viper.
Gasoline is *mostly* Toluene anyway. No...But if you can get 95, just use that. Anything more would be a complete and total waste Yes, with your application, and actually reduce performance. Yes
Tom I do not often correct you but in this case you are not exactly correct. Detonation is generally regarded as rapid burning of the (end) gases after spark plug initiation. The added heat and pressure resulting from the burn causes unburnt mixture to self ignite. Self ignition prior to spark is generally called pre-ignition and is much more damaging.
i used to mix Toluene (30%) years ago for my S/C+NOS Viper, ran like 3-4 tanks of it never had a problem but then switched to VP fuels for serious racing.
an old thread i used back then
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/554922-nos-octane-booster-question.html
and yah dont bother with Octane Boosters !
an old thread i used back then
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/554922-nos-octane-booster-question.html
and yah dont bother with Octane Boosters !
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Yes, the more correct textbook octane rating definition is the resistance to self-ignition whether before or after ignition. This is demonstrated by the actual measurement procedure, in which an engine mixes a 100 octane rating fuel and a 0 octane rating fuel to achieve the same knock intensity as the fuel being rated; if a 91:9 ratio produces the same knock intensity, then the fuel is labeled as having a 91 octane rating.
I answered as simply as I did because the post began with "Dude", because it is important to emphasize that more octane does not mean more power, and that in mostly stock engines the typical driver can't tell detonation from pre-ignition (until after the fact, perhaps). If we were writing textbooks you should also correct me that "octane" is an 8 carbon fuel and that number we want to be higher is the actually called the "octane rating."
What was the other time you corrected me?
Just kidding....
Malu59RT
Enthusiast
Can Toulene use be traced in the engine? I know the other thread said that there would be more carbon deposits by the exhaust. This is not for my Viper, but for my turbo gsx-r. I doubt my 08 would benefit from the use of Toulene
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Can Toulene use be traced in the engine? I know the other thread said that there would be more carbon deposits by the exhaust. This is not for my Viper, but for my turbo gsx-r. I doubt my 08 would benefit from the use of Toulene
No. More deposits can be from lots of other things, many of which are normal.
Like he said. Here's the plug from my other car after running NOS Racing Formula for about a year. I mixed one bottle w/ about 10 gallons of 91 and never had issues, but it was a pain to have to keep bottles of this stuff in the car. And if one decides to go this route, Summit Racing has good prices and I used to buy boaloads from them. I was thinking of getting the Mopar ECU also but now find out that it requres 93 fuel, I'm no longer interested as I don't want to go through the hassle anymore. I'll now waiting someone like SCT to crack the factory ECU and come out with a real tuning program for it. Then get a custom tunes 91 and 100 program.
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