Paxton Issues

[steponz]

Looks like I hit a sore spot...

Number 1...

You have been very rude the whole time...

Number 2...

I found out that you need vacuum pressure and rpm to kick off the fuel pumps....

Number 3...

The pumps are getting kicked off...

Number 4...

I am having problems with the passenger side of the car...
It's popping like crazy... I have checked the plugs and they black as hell on that side.
Meaning its getting a good amount of fuel...

Lets just go back to 3 for a second.....

Number 5...

There is a likely hood that my O2 sensor could be bad on that side...
When my passenger random cat broke... It seems to have cause a plug to break...
Just the porcelin broke... Not sure why it happened.. Doug and I are thinking it might have been detonation... But this is before the supercharger..We are also thinking that the cat or O2 sensor is bad... It would cause quite a bit of fuel to be dumped out on that side..

Number 6...

If you have spent countless hours of helping me... How come we have never talked..
Only the posts bashing me for trying a couple things...
Which were uncalled for...

Number 7...

The site has some good content... I don't mean to bash everybody...
It could be better if people were more open about there tuning...

Number 8...

Again look how rude you are in the last post... Have I really bad mouthed you before...
Not really...

Number 9...

Bite me...
:*****:

Joe

 

[Joseph Dell]

Looks like I hit a sore spot...



If you have spent countless hours of helping me... How come we have never talked..

Because you never called when you said you did.

I have better things to do than to help you, unfortunately. There are others who are both grateful and appreciative that deserve the time.

 

[steponz]

Do as you will...

But keep your bashing to a minimum..

People might find it rude..

Joe

 

[VIPER R]

Maybe it's time to think outside the box, or outside the supercharger. Could be all is fine there and the problem is more basic. How about basics like fuel filter, stock fuel pump, maybe a bad coil pack. If all else fails adjust the points, reset the timing and kick the tire.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Wow, just read through all the posts on this thread. Seems up until 11:00 today everything you stated said that the fuel pumps were not receiving any power. Then all of a sudden you are complaining about an overly rich mixture. Those two do not jive.

The way the fuel system on a Paxton car works is ONE fuel pump is on at all times when the ignition is on. When the split second units observes boost (actually moments before) it turn on the second fuel pump. That should cause the fuel pressure to jump up to 70-75 psi. It then climbs as the boost rises to somewhere in the 90-100 psi range.

You mentioned in one post that the split second calibration was strange, but then never mentioned why you thought it was strange. I have one, have looked and even adjusted the schedule and wonder what it was that you thought was strange about it.

There is NOTHING that the Paxton or Split Second can do that would affect the right bank only. And little that it could do to cause a rich condition. Note that since it is measuring boost, even belt slip will not result in excessive fuel. Also at WOT you are running open loop with the PCM. Open loop does not use the O2 sensor. So is your rich condition at WOT or part throttle?

In earlier posts you mentioned that it would hesitate or almost stop at 5000 rpm. Is that condition continuing? Better yet why do you not state clearly what the conditions that are observed NOW so that we do not misread into earlier comments that no longer apply.

Now before you blast me please understand that I have a Paxton unit and over 15,000 miles with it. I installed and tuned it myself and have a pretty good understanding of how it works. I am also an engineer and pretty good with these kind of things. But trouble shooting is only as good as the inputs. That is where we need accuracy and clarity.

 

[plumcrazy]

I have better things to do than to help you, unfortunately. There are others who are both grateful and appreciative that deserve the time.

Joseph, thanx for all the help today, and i DO appreciate it !!!

 

[VIPER R]

Just another thought, have you checked for stored codes?

 

[steponz]

Here it goes.

When the car is in a closed loop, it goes by the O2 sensors... So the right bank is popping like crazy..

Before I installed the supercharger, I had a problem with this bank...

It just seems very odd that the same bank is having problems.
When idling you can tell just by sticking your hands by the each exhaust pipe..
The driverside is flowing a lot of air...
The passenger side is popping and not really pushing too much air..
Since the crossover pipe is gone.. Definitly means something is wrong with that side..
I wasn't able to get the upstream o2 sensor out... That sensor is a pain in a@# to get out tomorrow i will try it again.. I really have a feeling that the sensor is bad..
Originally when I brought the car to Larry he noticed a broken plug....
Basically what we think is the hole in the Random Tech caused it... The hole was the size
of a silver dollar.. I originally through code and then it went away....

Any tips to get the sensor out... I don't have a lift, So I have to put the car on jackstands.
I tried putting a wrench in there but a wrench that big is a pain to move around..

Whats really interesting is that after I did the new ss install I started up the car and it idled fine until the car was warmed up, then the bank problem started happening again...
It originally did the same thing when I got the car back from Larry.

I drove the car for about 30 minutes under hard throttle I noticed after the car warmed up more and more it started shooting flames out of the driveside..

Started with a none,then a little and eventually ended up shooting a flame out everytime under hard throttle.

I didnt notice if the flame was coming from both sides...It was definitely coming from the driveside though.. I could see it light up...

Originally I would WOT and the flame would occur and the car would just hesitate like it was trying to get it out... Kind of like it was constipated... So if I feathered it, It would eventually go up in rpms.... If I just hammered the pedal down it really wouldn't do anything.. I figured I would stop testing out the WOT... That way I do less damage...

As for the fuel pumps... both pumps are coming on.. I am just not sure if they are working properly.. I should just change them out..

I'll have to check again to see what the pressure is under boost and in the higher rpms..
I'll gradually bring it up..

I have two brand new ones.. Thanks to Fast Too....

Do you think I should switch them out?

On the original SS box I downloaded the fuel and timing maps and I noticed the fuel maps being all over the place.....It looked like it was adjusting like crazy... No small deviations... Bit gaps on throttle..

Also no timing changes were programed... I figured there would at least me some..
Doesn't the stock programming adjust it at all?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[steponz]

Just another thought, have you checked for stored codes?

No codes... Wish there was.... Would actually help with troubleshooting..

Joe

 

[Bobpantax]

"Before I installed the supercharger, I had a problem with this bank..." Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but are you saying that you put on the supercharger without fixing a preexisting problem in one cylinder bank? My understanding of installation procedure, whether it is a Paxton or Roe system, has been, and remains, that you first check the condition and operating status of the stock sytem and fix any problems that might exist before installing the supercharger. Why was this procedure varied? Please explain.

 

[steponz]

Very good question....

I had a light go off a while ago... Cleared it too see if it would come back...
Never came back....

So when I dropped the car off to Larry to get the supercharger put on...
We lifted the car up and you could see a big hole in the exhaust.. The hanger
had ripped off the Random Tech cat..

This is what he told me... When they went to regap the plugs... He found a plug that had been fouled where the porcelin had broken... He said it most likely do to the hole in the exhaust...

What I am trying to figure out is how it would idle fine after just installing the new ss box.
It basically ran the same way when I got the car back from Larry..
I didn't notice if it was missing at all... definitely not like it is now...
Not sure how that could happen...
Doesn't the computer relearn everything?? What triggers this?

Also I tried new NGK 4293 plugs and gapped them to .035... When I changed the plugs,
the whole bank was black. Which means its getting too much fuel... Which confuses the hell out of me....

So that's why I want to check the o2 sensor on that bank..

Joe

"Before I installed the supercharger, I had a problem with this bank..." Perhaps I am misunderstanding you but are you saying that you put on the supercharger without fixing a preexisting problem in one cylinder bank? My understanding of installation procedure, whether it is a Paxton or Roe system, has been, and remains, that you first check the condition and operating status of the stock sytem and fix any problems that might exist before installing the supercharger. Why was this procedure varied? Please explain.

 

[plumcrazy]

wait who's larry ???

 

[GR8_ASP]

Ok, I will make a few stabs at this.

There are many things that could cause single bank misfires. Misfires would answer the popping as the fuel mixture would be burned in the exhaust. An overly rich mixture could also cause it. The first check I would do is to check the short and long term adaptives to see if the right bank is "asking" for more fuel.

If the adaptives are unusual I would then do some tests on the O2 sensor. I have experienced multiple O2 sensor failures and a check engine light did not always precede the poor driving conditions. Typically a poor O2 sensor will only impact the part throttle running. Open up the throttle and it should start sounding correct. Unless of course the part throttle condition has resulted in fouled plugs or something.

One thing that continues to bother me is the cracked porcelain comment. Was the broken insulator on the inside or outside? I initially assumed inside due to the comment about the exhaust affecting it. But I cannot conceive a way for an exhaust flow issue to crack a spark plug. Wide open exhaust does decrease the fuel air ratio, possibly leading to a lean condition. But to be so lean to start causing damage is a long shot given how rich the initial mixture is under WOT conditions. Continuing on that line was the porcelain recovered or was it consumed by the engine? If consumed I would borescope that cylinder to make sure everything is ok.

All-in-al I would start to fix the first set of symptoms and go from there rather then trying to fix all simultaneously and get confused. I would start with the closed loop condition, which spark and fuel are the most probable causes. In general, under part throttle fuel supply is not the issue. An individual injector may be as the O2 sensor reads the average of all 5 cylinders and one cylinder running high or low will cause the others to be the opposite. But my first guess would be the O2 sensor. It seems as if you had an O2 code before (you never specified what code was found). If so it is not a stretch to say whatever caused it still exists. So I would replace it, put in a clean set of plugs and probably wires (wires are easily damaged during servicing) and see what the result is. You can do it in steps if you wish (especially the wires as on a Gen III they are a pain in the ass). I would then monitor all activity when in closed loop and verify things are correct. Then move on to the next symptom, presumably under WOT.

Note that use of a DRB or other monitoring equipment can help immensely in understanding what is happening.

 

[Bobpantax]

Very good question....

I had a light go off a while ago... Cleared it too see if it would come back...
Never came back....

So when I dropped the car off to Larry to get the supercharger put on...
We lifted the car up and you could see a big hole in the exhaust.. The hanger
had ripped off the Random Tech cat..

This is what he told me... When they went to regap the plugs... He found a plug that had been fouled where the porcelin had broken... He said it most likely do to the hole in the exhaust...

What I am trying to figure out is how it would idle fine after just installing the new ss box.
It basically ran the same way when I got the car back from Larry..
I didn't notice if it was missing at all... definitely not like it is now...
Not sure how that could happen...
Doesn't the computer relearn everything?? What triggers this?

Also I tried new NGK 4293 plugs and gapped them to .035... When I changed the plugs,
the whole bank was black. Which means its getting too much fuel... Which confuses the hell out of me....

So that's why I want to check the o2 sensor on that bank..

Joe

The stock Paxton kit was made to overlay a stock, properly functioning engine. The programming in the split second was done for that purpose. If the engine is not functioning properly, the operating environment probably is exceeding the flexibility of the programming. Take the car back to Larry. Have him remove the system. Have him thoroughly check the engine, etc. and make sure that it is operating properly. If not, have him fix it and reinstall the sytem. When I had Sean Roe install an 8 lb Roe supercharger system in my former beloved 1999 GTS, he thoroughly checked the stock system first. It seems to me that Larry should do it for a reduced fee plus the cost of any parts needed that were needed before this whole process started. Puting a supercharger on the car before definitively knowing what was wrong with it was not consistent with common sense.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Just for clarity the Split Second unit as provided by Paxton does only 2 things. Turns on the second fuel pump and retards the spark based on a table of inlet vacuum/pressure and rpm. I see nothing in the Paxton system that would affect one bank operation.

However, I have noted one failure mode with the Paxton that could (and did on mine). That was the intercooler module rubbed on the wire harness that routes below it. That can create some unusual conditions as many engine control wires run through it. I would not discount that possibility but it is a very quick check to see if there is wire harness contact to the intercooler (just check with your hands as it is very difficult to see).

Removing the Paxton unit would be a drastic overreaction and not adviseable from my perspective.

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi Gr8. Normally, I'd agree that it might be an overreaction, but in this case, where there was a preexisting problem, I think that out of an abundance of caution, it might be adviseable to do so. There are a number of reasons why one bank might be malfunctioning and without knowing exactly what is going on it seems to me that unnecessary risk is being taken by operating the engine with boost.

 

[steponz]

The code that I initially scanned... was bank 2 slot 1... It was so long ago... I don't really remember what it is.... It doesn't come back...
I have tried checking it mulitple times.

I really need to get a better scanner... I would really like to pick of a nice OBD2 tool that interfaces with a PC.. I have seen a couple... I might as well pick one up to see what the o2 sensors are doing..
The current one I have doesn't have that funcitonality.. It really can only clear codes..
Anybody have any reccomendations??

I redid all of the wiring myself, I originally read your post on the wires rubbing against on the intercooler.... So I made sure that it isn't doing that...

I think it is a bit of an overreaction to take the paxton off now..
I am going to be checking the cat and o2 sensors most likely next week..
It really does sound like a o2 sensor..... It's not too hard to get the o2 sensor out and
replace with a new one...
Family come first... So I will most likely have to wait til Thursday or Friday to do the work...

The car really can't be driven on the road... As I am waiting for my new rims and tires to come in.. I have a tire that leaks pretty bad in the back...

So I have about 2 more weeks to play around with the car to get it running well..

Thanks guys..

 

[steponz]

GR8 ASP,

I see that you have replaced an o2 sensor or two... How did you know they were malfunctioning?? Did you throw codes??

Joe

 

[grcforce327]

That has to be the FIRST step on trying to resolve issues!!! Have a scanner with "real time" data capabilities as a starting point!!!You need to see where the adaptives are at, and what those O2 sensors are doing.Good Luck on getting it resolved.Get a temp gun also and check the exhaust temps,a bad cat will cause low exhaust pressure and run colder on that one side.

 

[steponz]

grcforce327,

Any reccomendations as far as scanners?

Since the crossover pipe is not in.... Wouldn't the cat become hotter? With it being bad..
or clogged?...

Not bashing or anything... Just curious..

Joe

 

[steponz]

Also...

Doug had asked me to do a test to make sure I didn't have a damaged ring..

Basically start the car and take off the oil cap...

If you have smoke poofing out, then there is a definite problem....
Mine wasn't doing that at all....

Thats a basic test..... Just figured I would let you guys know...

THanks,

Joe

 

[grcforce327]

grcforce327,

Any reccomendations as far as scanners?

Since the crossover pipe is not in.... Wouldn't the cat become hotter? With it being bad..
or clogged?...

Not bashing or anything... Just curious..

Joe

I use a Snap On Solus,but you can pick up a MT2500 on ebay cheap as well as others,just make sure it's updated for your year of car.I had a cat go bad on my 94(no crossover)(side exhaust) and that side had low pressure and ran alot colder than the other side.I would also look into the new programmers for the Gen 3's,that's a big plus for you Gen 3 owners!Start with reading the O2's!It can be frustrating at times,but it's a great learning experience once you get it fixed!

 

[steponz]

I didn't even think about the programmers I wanted one anyway......
Do they allow you to see realtime what the 02 sensors are doing??

Whats really interesting is that the cats were fine when I took them off and now they are bad....

Thanks for the tips...

Joe

 

[steponz]

Also with the cats.... How can you tell one is bad??
I want to take it off to see if I can tell......

I am having problems getting the dam o2 sensor out...

Joe

 

[grcforce327]

Scanner for real time data.The rear O2's will usually pic up a bad cat,but not always.A temp gun will,just compare temps to the good side.Might be easier to unscrew the O2 while the exhaust is hot.Use anti sieze when installing!

 

[GR8_ASP]

I have had different O2 problems. The first was a heater that was not performing well, but worked enough to avoid the OBD detection. It caused some very strange behavior in the first 5 minutes or so. It caused spitting and wheezing (best descriptions I can think of) out of the right bank. I have also had bad signals which caused extreme lean mixture, which made it run like a 5 cylinder. The right bank effectively shut off during initial closed loop operation until the O2 sensor heated up enough. Once hot it was fine. Both failures eventually set the MIL, but not initially.

The advice regarding the use of a temp sensor was good. I do use an infrared gun to verify various cylinder are running similar. Not easy as you need to develop a sense of where to measure for any consistency. I do think a plugged cat would cause the exhaust to be cooler, due to much lower air flow. My guess is that it would not run rich at the same time (assuming correct f/a measurement). Note that both a clogged cat and bad O2 sensor could cause anything from lean to rich as the O2 sensor would dictate the fuel. So a plugged cat that was overly hot would probably indicate a bad O2 sensor as well.