Paxton or Turbo Boosted Progressive Water / Methanol Injection Kits

[Sean Roe]

Hi Everyone,
We’re now making available our “Universal” Water / Methanol Injection kit for use on all Paxton SC or turbo powered Vipers.
We’ve taken our standard Water / Methanol kit (used in Roe Supercharged applications) and made a few controller and wiring changes so those without a VEC could utilize the system.
The universal system is boost activated and progressively controlled based on RPM and engine load. When activated, the air fuel ratio curve follows the same path as before, but with a half point richer air / fuel ratio. This can easily be adjusted up or down to meet your engine’s needs, where you may need it richer or leaner. Adjustment to the air / fuel ratio is made by changing the pump pressure or nozzle size. No special tools or computer programming required.
The combination of the richer AFR and cooler air temperature charge quenches spark knock and can allow you to either add additional boost or increase spark advance, both resulting in more power!
If you don’t plan to increase boost or ignition timing, use the system to compensate for a lean fuel mixture or simply as a safety device / cool air performance enhancer for hot days.
An LED lighted switch and dash mount LED light confirm when the system is powered and activating. The system comes with a one year warranty and includes complete installation instruction.

Here’s a link to our site:
Universal Boost Methanol Injection Kit - Viper - Supercharger - Roe Racing

Feel free to ask any questions you may have.
I hope everyone has a great weekend!

Regards,
Sean

 

[MacManInfi]

Quick question, where does the reservoir go? No room under the hood with the Paxton.

 

[Sean Roe]

In the trunk or rear hatch area. Usually on the right side.

 

[MacManInfi]

Genious! Not sure why I didn't think of that. Awesome. Will order shortly.

 

[1BADGTS]

Sean i am contimplating a supercharged Srt car as car winter project but my engine builder is flat out against a blower for my intended usage.Question,should the water -methanol system fail in any form where as water is not injected for whatever reason under boost what happens to the engine(esp if said system is used to surpress detonation )Do you have any fail safes ect built in to the system.

 

[Sean Roe]

No, there's no interaction between the W/M pump control and the PCM.
We currently us an LED that you mount inside the car to show the system as active.
A low level light could be added.

 

[1BADGTS]

Is what he is telling me correct though- should a failure occur in the water- **** system under boost the engine is basically toast.

 

[Sean Roe]

Of the dozens of W/M systems around, the only one I know of that has an input to the PCM from the W/M system is AEM's. Both controllers are made by them, so it's a little easier for them to integrate the two.
Regarding a failure occuring under boost toating an engine, now matter what the vehicle system is that fails, fuel, water / methanol , oil, coolant, whatever, yes, if the guy with his foot to the floor doesn't pay attention to what he hears in the engine or sees on the gauges, yes, engine damage could occur.

 

[RTTTTed]

Is what he is telling me correct though- should a failure occur in the water- **** system under boost the engine is basically toast.

Whether te engine gets toasted or not due to w/m system failure (such as forgetting to fill the tank) it would depend on the engine, boost level, timing, fuel, and other system failures such as knock sensors, bypassed safety issues and more.

If the engine is built to the max, then it would 'toast' the engine if any of a dozen systems failed, such as fuel pressure reg., fuel pump, bad gas, perhaps a crank or cam sensor, etc. As Sean said if the driver continues to keep WOT when the engine starts to knock he can destroy the pistons, etc.

If the system is set for an improvement in hp or street driving on pump gas then the engine would start pinging/detonating and the driver could let off the throttle and there should be no damage.

Ted

 

[Bobpantax]

In the trunk or rear hatch area. Usually on the right side.

Hi Sean. Correct me if my recollection is wrong, but a few years ago didn't we briefly discuss the use of the window washer fluid reservoir as one of the choices for the water/**** container? Of course it would create a slight inconvenience by requiring manual application of water with the squeegy for cleaning the window when you stop for gas, but locating it in the reservoir would not add weight since the water/ **** would just replace the window washing fluid which, in some cases, is water/**** - yes?

Also, what would be the advantage, if any, of water/**** for a Gen III with a stock Paxton kit - which inludes an intercooler? Do you have some test results that you can post? What other changes would be required to produce the advantage other than the installation of the kit? Also, how is the kit installed with a Paxton? I am having a little trouble visualizing it. Do you have a drawing or instructions that you can post? Thanks in advance for your answers.

 

[plumcrazy]

bob, i think it would help from a cooling the charge and intake temps standpoint.... no ?

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi Plum. I understand that theoretically it should but I do not know whether it has an additive effect with an intercooler. I would also like to know where the spray nozzle goes with the Paxton set up. I would like to know how it integrates with the existing fuel management and other elements of the stock kit. Is additional tuning required? Does the stock ECM with the split second and pressure sensor of the stock Paxton kit have the flexiility to accomodate the water **** system? The bottom line is that I would like to see some data with respect to the installation and performance of Sean's w/m kit on a Gen III with a stock Paxton kit. The data should include efficacy, reliability and durability. It should also include installation instructions. I think that, as someone posted above, there needs to be a safety device regarding flow. Someone could check the tank visually and see that it is full and then experience pump failure or line blockage. If the car has been tuned for extra boost due to the advantage of W/M, and the flow is not there when the driver hits the go pedal, couldn't an adverse engine condition present itself? So, I think, as someone mentioned above, there should be some sort of way to test the flow of the system on start up. Since the kit is aftermarket and, I assume will not come with a warranty with respect to the effect of its failure on the drivetrain, the ability to check the flow on start up is important. Even if the probability of w/m system failure might be low as Sean suggested, the result of a failure, if it did occur, could be expensive. Do you agree? What do you think?

 

[plumcrazy]

i personally never liked the w/m stuff. but recently someone mentioned to me using it to just cool the intake temps alone. and id guess that using just water would be fine for that. on my DLM intake tubes there is already bungs welded in for this.

the reason i never liked the w/m is, if that little nozzle clogs while under boost (especially at high RPM's) i gotta think you're going to have a pretty good problem on your hands. or if the poly tubing ever comes in contact with an exhaust part or something and melts. id definitely modify it to use some kind of copper or SS tubing.

but i agree, some more data would be helpful

the only thing i can think of as a failsafe is possibly a pressure switch inline somehow ?

 

[RTTTTed]

I have the water/methanol in my Viper. The car was set-up with 10# of boost, 9-1 Ross pistons and after tuning the car for pump gas, the w/m was added. This allowed the timing to be pulled back for more power.

Only problem I had with it was right after I bought the car. Attending a Car Show in Kamloops (I got first) I opened my hood and noticed that the driver's side front of the engine was wet. When I picked up the water/**** line I noticed that one end was loose. Yes, bad installation and the pressure pushed the plastic line out of the compression fitting so that the spray was onto the engine, not into the intake tube. I borrowed a wrench and tightend the line. No damage, no problem. Could happen to anyone. Mechanic didn't tighten the fitting enough.

Copper line would be less reliable, in my opinion as it doesn't flex and cracks easily. If it gets hit by road debris it may fail, instead of just bouncing out of shape and returning to normal.

If my tune was set at KILL or max power the engine may have been damaged, but since I drive the car on the highway it's possible that a KILL tune could ruin the engine with 1 bad tank of gas.

If you guys are really worried then maybe you want to use an AEM or Vec3 so that you can change between a KILL tune for the track and a conservative tune for the street? That way the engine would be safe for nearly all systems failures (timing, cam and crank sensors, ECU, fuel pump, etc.) except when using the tune for max hp?

I've read threads on this site that claim 17rwhp because of w/m. Personally, I think 35-50rwhp is reasonable with high boost applications. Huge power and longevity increase for the money. W/m is unnecessary and not an improvement until 8# boost (with the Roe blower) since there is no appreciable temp problem until after 8#.

I recommend it - it's on my car.

Ted

 

[1BADGTS]

Thanks guys ,i am considerating a winter project and i am exploring all options regarding my intended use of the Viper.As i said earlyier my engine builder is adament that if i go Supercharger the blower most have the largest possible intercooler (hand fabricated if neccessary)-saw this kit pop up and thought it might or may be a viable alternative ,addition.

 

[Sean Roe]

Water / alcohol / methanol injection is nothing new. The functionality, benefits and risks are also nothing new. There are a LOT of people doing it right now and it’s getting really big in the diesel truck market. Seems to have some additional benefit related to the turbo.

As far the question of where to put the nozzle, we suggest just forward of the throttle body. The nozzle fogs / mists the water and you want it within a couple inches of the inlet.

For a reservoir, yes, you can absolutely forgo the larger reservoir and use a smaller one, like the windshield washer bottle (that’s exactly what we do on the Ram trucks, which also have a low level indicator built in). On an application where you’re using a small amount of spray, the smaller reservoir would work just fine.

The benefits and how the system is used are pretty straight forward. You have a lot of flexibility here. If a car is running well, but you want the system for the benefit of cooler on a hot day when you’re out playing, or racing, you'd run low pump pressure so that it’s only flowing a very fine mist. A scenario like that would be about what I’d expect on a stock Paxton car. With the boost being progressive on that style SC and the W/M system we make being progressive, you could easily set the system to activate at about 4-5 psi and have the benefit of cooler air up top, where it’s most important. One thing I noticed on testing a Paxton SC Viper kit (I did buy a brand new kit and install it so I could see what I was up against), their cooler is pretty efficient at the beginning when the air hasn’t been too hot, but it does warm up pretty fast and the power drops off accordingly (I’m not saying to no gain, just that it drops off because the air gets hotter due to the cooler system being kind of small relative to how much heat it has to transfer after the first cold pull). A water / WM system in this case would be used mainly to maintain a performance level and provide some gain / safety at the upper end with cooler air / pistons.

If you really want to max out what you can get with a W/M system, you can run more pressure and turn up the ignition advance. Big gains can be had there. The water does a great job of allowing you to increase timing. The risk there is, the driver has to pay attention that the system is working. You could use a knock sensor setup with visual indicator, which wouldn’t be a bad idea anyway if you have a lot invested in maxing out your engine’s performance.

One really cool things we’re looking at right now is mixing the system with NOS. Our progressive controller can also fire off a NOS solenoid, which allows the NOS to ramp up and stay steady, versus come on and not adjust according to engine RPM. When most NOS systems come on, you see this big hit of power and it tapers back at higher RPM. The problem in that is that you have a variable amount of air moving (the engine always moves X cubic inches per revolution, but the RPM’s are increasing), but a fixed NOS nozzle flow. So you get more NOS to air at lower RPM and less NOS to air at higher RPM. You also have to take timing out with NOS. Using the W/M controller to fire both the W/M pump and the solenoid at the same time is allowing us to keep all the timing advance in (for more power) while also ramping in the NOS (making a better curve and not such a violent hit at the beginning). When complete, we’ll be able to run bigger jets than most can now because we’ll be pulsing them low at first and more at higher RPM. The upper end gain will be much bigger.

Anyway, that’s a quick post and a bit rambling (sorry). I have a lot going on and do get pretty excited about what we can do with this stuff J.

Regards,
Sean

 

[Bobpantax]

Thanks for the data Sean. Helpful.

 

[MacManInfi]

I can vouch for the Paxton loosing power after just a few seconds of boost. I saw a 30 rwhp loss on the dyno during back to back runs.

Quick question. Does the Paxton kit, or stock computer pull timing due to high intake temperature? If so, then it seems like you'd want to install the line before the air temp sender.

It would also be cool to install the line before the air temp sender just so I can see how much cooler the temps get (via scangaugeII).

One last thing, where does one buy Methanol?

 

[plumcrazy]

you might just wanna use WATER to COOL then ?

and on a dyno is different from actually running on the street. on the street there is a TON of air coming in the fascia to help cool it down. i have NOT noticed any drop in power in MANY back to back pulls on the street. but could also be the DLM cooler and pump ?

 

[Sean Roe]

I can vouch for the Paxton loosing power after just a few seconds of boost. I saw a 30 rwhp loss on the dyno during back to back runs.

Quick question. Does the Paxton kit, or stock computer pull timing due to high intake temperature? If so, then it seems like you'd want to install the line before the air temp sender.

It would also be cool to install the line before the air temp sender just so I can see how much cooler the temps get (via scangaugeII).

One last thing, where does one buy Methanol?

Yes, the stock PCM removes ignition timing advance as the IAT increases. You're correct in thinking that the nozzle should be upstream of the sensor.

Methanol can be purchased at some places that sell race gas. It's also the contents of the product called Heet (gas dry). You could also use the Snow brand "Boost Juice". However, water is cheap, easy, plentiful and works.

 

[MacManInfi]

Wow, great info. Thanks for the reply. I ordered one of these kits. I'm stoked. Can't wait to put it on!

 

[plumcrazy]

and plain water is always mixed to the exact same ratio...lol

thats what i like about plain water for just cooling

 

[MacManInfi]

Got my kit over the weekend. Nice work! Nice wiring harness, instructions, etc. Well done.

Have a question though, if I install the nozzles into the silicon intake tubes, how do they seal air tight and not back out under boost? Silicone sealant maybe? Something else?

 

[MacManInfi]

Found an answer to my own question. Saturday night I finished the install. Drilled a small hole in each intake tube which was just barely big enough to get the head of the nozzle in. This made a really tight fit around the small neck of the nozzle (before the threads start). Put a little high-temp silicone sealant around the neck and installed them. They're in there really solid, and the nozzles don't protrude too far into the intake tubes. Everything went smoothly per the instructions. Fantastic kit, great job Roe!

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[plumcrazy]

dang that looks sweet. nice going and nice looking engine

 

[kverges]

Aquamist makes an inline FLOW meter for W/M injection systems that could be retrofit to actually see water flow. Even then, however, if you hade a loose fitting or leak, water could be flowing, just not into the engine.