Paxton Supercharger Costs Question
- Thread starter Sean Roe
- Start date
As noted by others, it should be mentioned that Paxton has changed both pricing and vendorship policies over the last year or so to prevent some online companies from making a quick buck on the kit sold and offering no ability to install nor support the products in any way. Pricing has changed as well, including all dealer pricing, as well as minimum saleable price. Most prices posted here are old news, and NOT possible anymore.
HI-NOS-Viper
Enthusiast
Very true but in all honesty the thing is they could pretty much do what they want as far as raising the price without having to worry too much about sales dropping. There was absolutely no competition for the GenIII Paxton. People will pay the upped price for the kit since there is no other options. Now that there will be they may have to re look at the pricing depending on what prices Sean puts out there and especially the numbers his kit produces. Its simply business
Gouge? not at all. The way it was before was a MAJOR problem. You had online shops selling the product for peanuts with no ability to support it, and customers wanting shops who didnt even sell them the product to install and warranty a product they made nothing on, not to mention a large number of customers trying to save a few bucks and attemping an install they really were not capable of- with no help. All in all, it was a bad situation for everyone, and resulted in many dealers doing an unfair amount of work supporting a product that they couldnt even compete with price wise because of a few online sellers. You can either have the best price, or the best knowledge/quality/support- you dont get both, as the latter costs more to produce.
No matter how you slice it, when you are making 2-300 on a $8000.00+ sale- something is wrong, Period. There is no way that a "real world" shop can stay open at those markups- "we" are not internet businesses with zero overhead and zero accountability. I can understand this from a customer standpoint about wanting the best price, but I can also see this from a dealer perspective. Why should a dealer support a product that they cant make any money on? Why should dealers have to deal with the "well I can get it from so and so for X amount of dollars online, so you should sell it to me for that much" mentality? There is few things from a dealer perspective that are tougher to deal with than an unreasonable sale price somewhere on the internet posted by some company that doesnt care how much they make. Even with the cost of install, if the product wasnt purchased with a decent markup as well, the overall sale is hardly enough to cover any potential problems if something doesnt go 100% as planned.
Last edited:
Very true but in all honesty the thing is they could pretty much do what they want as far as raising the price without having to worry too much about sales dropping. There was absolutely no competition for the GenIII Paxton. People will pay the upped price for the kit since there is no other options. Now that there will be they may have to re look at the pricing depending on what prices Sean puts out there and especially the numbers his kit produces. Its simply business
Keep in mind, the retail price has NOT changed, only the dealer pricing has increased, as well as the minimum sale and advertised pricing. The price the customer pays now from a REAL shop will be roughly the same as it was before. The only change was that online websites selling the product for 100 bucks over cost have been cut off.
So the $1700 I saved at superchargers 4 less and the fact that I installed it myself is a wrong headed idea? I think this is basically the plan Paxton had from the beginning. If there is a support problem it comes from Paxton not the dealers. If it wasn't for the internet I don't think any Viper Mods would be sold. It's the sellers job to make money it's my job to save money, at $100 over cost I did my job. Paxton is trying to take my job away.
Everything is relative, you are an exception. Paxton knows that if all of their CAPABLE dealers decide to no longer support their products, they stand to lose a lot more money than if the few people out there who do their own installs decide to no longer support their products. Self-Installers maybe make up 10-20% of the market, while the rest are all professional. As a professional, no money=no support, it cant be any other way. You are looking at this from your point of view as a single person with a certain skillset. Paxton is looking at this from a company & market wide standpoint. There are only a handful of Viper Installers to begin with, if even a few of them going away it makes a big difference to Paxton with regard to their Viper kits.
Last edited:
Dustman
Viper Owner
Very true but in all honesty the thing is they could pretty much do what they want as far as raising the price without having to worry too much about sales dropping. There was absolutely no competition for the GenIII Paxton. People will pay the upped price for the kit since there is no other options. Now that there will be they may have to re look at the pricing depending on what prices Sean puts out there and especially the numbers his kit produces. Its simply business
Exactly my thoughts as well !
i dont have to like it, but i agree with dan. its better for paxton and now the dealers will promote, buy, sell, install and service the paxton S/C's. and not just ONE or two.
there should always be a way to make money if you buy more than the next guy and stock the product. and before the guys like dan,DC,woodhouse had a tougher time making money and would stop if paxton didnt do what they did......i dont blame them
there should always be a way to make money if you buy more than the next guy and stock the product. and before the guys like dan,DC,woodhouse had a tougher time making money and would stop if paxton didnt do what they did......i dont blame them
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Mods not sold without the INTERNET? we sell about 200-250 new and used Vipers and other SRT vehicles on top of that. I can tell you without reservation that 70% or better leave our shop with Mods and some with LOTS of them because they trust us to do it right and stand behind it. I very rarely (thank you all!) get beat up on price. Sure occasionally people ask for discounts on the larger jobs and I'm happy to give it to them especially to help with the added shipping cost if they ship it back after the sale.
Dan, thank you for helping to make the point I have been talking about for so long. There is a difference in what you get from a knowledgeable dealer of a product that has the customers BEST interest in mind rather than having no overhead and just cutting everyone else that cares out of the equation. If you are a good wrench and just want the cheap price with no follow up needed then by all means use the internet vendors. Just please remember that you chose this if something does go south and not blame the products.
Thanks again to all our customers and supporters, without you this would not be possible.
Dan, thank you for helping to make the point I have been talking about for so long. There is a difference in what you get from a knowledgeable dealer of a product that has the customers BEST interest in mind rather than having no overhead and just cutting everyone else that cares out of the equation. If you are a good wrench and just want the cheap price with no follow up needed then by all means use the internet vendors. Just please remember that you chose this if something does go south and not blame the products.
Thanks again to all our customers and supporters, without you this would not be possible.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Sean,
If the tuning and components are of the same standards as the Paxton offering with the reliability and "dealer support" Paxton offers Woodhouse, then by all means I would be proud to offer your system as an option. I do need your assurance though that if/when there is a problem you will have our backs the way Paxton does, since my customers have had this guarantee all along.
P.S. Bill P. and I will be at VOI and look forward to meeting you and your team face to face! Bob will also be there but in his own capacity as the Woodhouse Performance Race Team owner. He will also be offering some VERY trick race style items for the Gen3/4 cars! Look for some real treats there.
If the tuning and components are of the same standards as the Paxton offering with the reliability and "dealer support" Paxton offers Woodhouse, then by all means I would be proud to offer your system as an option. I do need your assurance though that if/when there is a problem you will have our backs the way Paxton does, since my customers have had this guarantee all along.
P.S. Bill P. and I will be at VOI and look forward to meeting you and your team face to face! Bob will also be there but in his own capacity as the Woodhouse Performance Race Team owner. He will also be offering some VERY trick race style items for the Gen3/4 cars! Look for some real treats there.
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
I hate to pay anything other then rock bottom prices. However, I figured out about 2 years ago, it made far more sense to pay for it the right way, then to pay for it the cheap way and have problems later on down the road that the guy I low-balled on price wouldnt help with.
I paid Woodhouse a fair price for Top-Of-The-Line service and support, and thats EXACTLY what I got and get. Just the other week Mark stood by their install and worked with another dealership to correct a problem. All taken care of out of Woodhouse pockets, not my own.
I'll tell you right now, If I get a Viper, it comes from Woodhouse, if I get a major mod, it goes to woodhouse! (or comes from woodhouse when I buy the car from them).
I 'tested' the Woodhouse backing of products, and it withstood the test... and passed with flying colors.
Thanks Mark & Thanks Woodhouse.
You get what you pay for with them!
Jon
I paid Woodhouse a fair price for Top-Of-The-Line service and support, and thats EXACTLY what I got and get. Just the other week Mark stood by their install and worked with another dealership to correct a problem. All taken care of out of Woodhouse pockets, not my own.
I'll tell you right now, If I get a Viper, it comes from Woodhouse, if I get a major mod, it goes to woodhouse! (or comes from woodhouse when I buy the car from them).
I 'tested' the Woodhouse backing of products, and it withstood the test... and passed with flying colors.
Thanks Mark & Thanks Woodhouse.
You get what you pay for with them!
Jon
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
Glad I got my Paxton before the prices went up. $6500 here, about 5 months ago. Installation labor was $1500 for everything.
Hi Sean. Questions. In the other recent thread where you discussed your Gen III supercharger you stated that you would only, at least initially, be producing the higher version. You also stated that because of its height that the '08 hood would have to be installed on the Gen III vehicle in order for the hood to close, etc. So, if someone is going to install your kit, doesn't he or she have to include the price of buying the hood, having it painted, removing the old hood and installing the new hood? Also, does the swap out require any custom alteration of the '08 hood to match up with the air intake for your supercharger? Last, what type of warranty is it going to come with and who will be servicing the piece if there are any problems? (The Paxton has a limited three year warranty and an available optional drivetrain warranty. Paxton also has quite a few authorized dealers throughout the country.) Thank you in advance for your answers.
Hi Bob,
Tell me about the optional drivetrain warranty sold by Paxton. Since they're not in the warranty business either, I assume this is a warranty policy purchased like any other aftermarket warranty, like when you buy a used car and they offer you a warranty?
Can you give me the details of the warranty or provide me with the company contact information? I'd be glad to offer the same thing.
Briefly, in regard to the hood and "what if" questions about problems, I'll answer the hood question with the release and prices at VOI.
Regarding problems and installers, we have over 500 SC kits on Vipers and Rams right now and have a pretty good handle on what to expect in the way of problems (and more importantly, how to properly resolve any that do come up) . Fortunately, with few moving parts (the supercharger rotors, clicking injectors, bypass actuator and idler pulley), no problems should be expected in regard to the mechanical systems. Since the engine management is now the reflashed stock computer and the IAT sensor is in the intake manifold, many of the little quirks we had with the initial Gen2 kits offered starting in 2002 are now behind us.
The SC kits currently have a two year warranty on them (cars and trucks). So far, we've had two superchargers "re-timed" after some use because they got noisy (the rotors only have 0.002" clearance between them and must be timed perfectly), one injector, one idler and two bypass valves out of all the kits in the last six years. Most of the old problems in regard to quirks were engine management related.
We have a network of dealers and installers if someone needs service. You can view them on our website under dealers and installers. If needed, the Supercharger can be removed and stock intake put back on in about two and a half hours, allowing someone to send the blower in for service in the event something came up.
Not a lot different than what we've been doing the last six years, just improved from experience.
Regards,
Sean
Tell me about the optional drivetrain warranty sold by Paxton. Since they're not in the warranty business either, I assume this is a warranty policy purchased like any other aftermarket warranty, like when you buy a used car and they offer you a warranty?
Can you give me the details of the warranty or provide me with the company contact information? I'd be glad to offer the same thing.
Briefly, in regard to the hood and "what if" questions about problems, I'll answer the hood question with the release and prices at VOI.
Regarding problems and installers, we have over 500 SC kits on Vipers and Rams right now and have a pretty good handle on what to expect in the way of problems (and more importantly, how to properly resolve any that do come up) . Fortunately, with few moving parts (the supercharger rotors, clicking injectors, bypass actuator and idler pulley), no problems should be expected in regard to the mechanical systems. Since the engine management is now the reflashed stock computer and the IAT sensor is in the intake manifold, many of the little quirks we had with the initial Gen2 kits offered starting in 2002 are now behind us.
The SC kits currently have a two year warranty on them (cars and trucks). So far, we've had two superchargers "re-timed" after some use because they got noisy (the rotors only have 0.002" clearance between them and must be timed perfectly), one injector, one idler and two bypass valves out of all the kits in the last six years. Most of the old problems in regard to quirks were engine management related.
We have a network of dealers and installers if someone needs service. You can view them on our website under dealers and installers. If needed, the Supercharger can be removed and stock intake put back on in about two and a half hours, allowing someone to send the blower in for service in the event something came up.
Not a lot different than what we've been doing the last six years, just improved from experience.
Regards,
Sean
Thank you for the additional data. More data is always helpful for those considering a new product. Since I did not buy it, I do not know the terms and price of the optional Paxton drivetrain warranty but I am sure that you can find out from Paxton if you are interested. Have fun at VOI X.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Sean,
I'm also very glad to hear that the tuning "quirks" will not be an issue with the new kit. That was always my reservation as we had not "tuned" anywhere near enough of them to be considered experts. The installation reliability is the thing that I always struggled with although I know you have lot's of qualified "tuners" out there that have things under control.
To me I think adding the 08' hood is a good thing anytime because of the added venting and even at an additional $2K it will help looks and cooling. I hope to be able to spend some time talking with you at VOI.
I'm also very glad to hear that the tuning "quirks" will not be an issue with the new kit. That was always my reservation as we had not "tuned" anywhere near enough of them to be considered experts. The installation reliability is the thing that I always struggled with although I know you have lot's of qualified "tuners" out there that have things under control.
To me I think adding the 08' hood is a good thing anytime because of the added venting and even at an additional $2K it will help looks and cooling. I hope to be able to spend some time talking with you at VOI.
Looking forward to seeing what new products Roe will have at VOI !
Thanks Bob.
I'll do a little more digging and see who underwrites the warranty. Do you recall the cost if it were purchased?
Also, does anyone have a dyno graph of an out of the box Paxton kit on a stock '03-06 car? I've called around and all the ones I could get my hands on were modified beyond the out of the box kit (using a VEC3 instead of the supplied Split Second box, different injectors, headers, etc). The Paxton kit I bought and used to R&D against was for a Ram, back when I was developing the truck kit, so it's not a direct comparison because of the rear axle and tires on the Ram (though it's pretty close).
I'll do a little more digging and see who underwrites the warranty. Do you recall the cost if it were purchased?
Also, does anyone have a dyno graph of an out of the box Paxton kit on a stock '03-06 car? I've called around and all the ones I could get my hands on were modified beyond the out of the box kit (using a VEC3 instead of the supplied Split Second box, different injectors, headers, etc). The Paxton kit I bought and used to R&D against was for a Ram, back when I was developing the truck kit, so it's not a direct comparison because of the rear axle and tires on the Ram (though it's pretty close).
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Sean,
I have 123 of them to choose from but one of my customers would need to chime in and say it is OK to send it to you.
I have 123 of them to choose from but one of my customers would need to chime in and say it is OK to send it to you.
Thanks Mark. If you get permission, do you have a Dynojet DRF file? If so, I could lay it over my car's graph. It would be a good way to show the differences in between the kits. I'm not trying to say mine makes a higher peak number or anything like that, just showing how the graphs are different. I did the same thing with the Ram kits.
Hey Bob, was your car stock when done at Woodhouse? If so, could Mark forward me the dyno graph please?
Hey Bob, was your car stock when done at Woodhouse? If so, could Mark forward me the dyno graph please?
The engine was stock. The stock exhaust was changed to a Corsa cat back. Note that it was tested with 19 miles on the odometer on a Mustang dynamometer. It got a little bit stronger after it was broken in. At 19 miles, it was 590.2/ 547.6 at the rear wheels which, as you know, equates to 649.2/602.4 on a Dynojet. I think that all of Mark's dyno runs are on a Mustang dynamometer. So you would not really be able to do the overlay and apples to apples comparison you need. Check with Dan Cragin. I know that he has an in house dyno. I do not know what kind it is. If you think that my dyno sheet would be helpful to you, I have no problem with Mark giving it to you.
If anyone can send a Paxton graph from a stock car (cat-back is ok as they don't add much HP) with an out of the box tune and setup, I'd appreciate it. Seems that most people are modifying them (bigger intercooler, different engine management, injectors, etc).
A Dynojet brand dyno would be best, but even the Mustang will show the nature of the curve.
Hi Bob,
As far as difference between a Mustang and Dynojet brand dyno goes, I’ve never taken a car off a Dynojet and run it on a Mustang or visa versa to say that "yep, you have to multiply or divide the brand X to equal the number from brand Y". I've only done it with an engine dyno to chassis Dynojet dyno with same PCM and exhaust.
If I can get a car graph from anyone, please let me know if it's the first cold pull graph (the one that makes the big number), or a warm and up to temperature pull. There's a large difference.
Below is a stock Ram SRT-10 with a stock Paxton kit. Three pulls were done one minute apart with a large fan blowing in the engine compartment and a commercial carpet drying fan in front of the radiator / charge cooler core. I did the full screen shot so you could see the time the pulls were done and not just the peak numbers. The Paxton charge cooler heats up fast and drops efficiency accordingly, which is probably why guys are going with the DLM coolers / etc. (Not a knock against Paxton, just an observation)
This is the info I’d “like” to get on a car also.
Please send to [email protected]
A Dynojet brand dyno would be best, but even the Mustang will show the nature of the curve.
Hi Bob,
As far as difference between a Mustang and Dynojet brand dyno goes, I’ve never taken a car off a Dynojet and run it on a Mustang or visa versa to say that "yep, you have to multiply or divide the brand X to equal the number from brand Y". I've only done it with an engine dyno to chassis Dynojet dyno with same PCM and exhaust.
If I can get a car graph from anyone, please let me know if it's the first cold pull graph (the one that makes the big number), or a warm and up to temperature pull. There's a large difference.
Below is a stock Ram SRT-10 with a stock Paxton kit. Three pulls were done one minute apart with a large fan blowing in the engine compartment and a commercial carpet drying fan in front of the radiator / charge cooler core. I did the full screen shot so you could see the time the pulls were done and not just the peak numbers. The Paxton charge cooler heats up fast and drops efficiency accordingly, which is probably why guys are going with the DLM coolers / etc. (Not a knock against Paxton, just an observation)
This is the info I’d “like” to get on a car also.
Please send to [email protected]
You must be registered for see images
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Sean,
The power curve on a Mustang Dyno is arched more showing a swell in power from about 3500 up. The A/F ratio is a bit "lean" for an out of the box tune from Paxton unless the leanest disk was chosen or the "load" simulation on the dyno rollers was insufficient. For what we do I would be afraid that in warmer conditions the top end goes a bit too lean.
FYI the cooler for the Paxton works significantly better and longer going down the road. There is just not enough fan power to simulate this either on the dyno, at least in my experience.
The Truck motor as you can tell doesn't pull past the 5500 mark well where the car will still be pulling up till 6K and boost will make it to about 7.5 with a catback.
The power curve on a Mustang Dyno is arched more showing a swell in power from about 3500 up. The A/F ratio is a bit "lean" for an out of the box tune from Paxton unless the leanest disk was chosen or the "load" simulation on the dyno rollers was insufficient. For what we do I would be afraid that in warmer conditions the top end goes a bit too lean.
FYI the cooler for the Paxton works significantly better and longer going down the road. There is just not enough fan power to simulate this either on the dyno, at least in my experience.
The Truck motor as you can tell doesn't pull past the 5500 mark well where the car will still be pulling up till 6K and boost will make it to about 7.5 with a catback.
Hi Bob,
As far as difference between a Mustang and Dynojet brand dyno goes, I’ve never taken a car off a Dynojet and run it on a Mustang or visa versa to say that "yep, you have to multiply or divide the brand X to equal the number from brand Y". I've only done it with an engine dyno to chassis Dynojet dyno with same PCM and exhaust.
Hi Sean. I retested my car after it was broken in on a Dynojet. Based on the results, the conversion factor usually used to adjust between the two types of dynamometer - 10% - is accurate. There are a few reliable sites online that discuss the differences between the two types of dynamometers which also use the 10% conversion factor. My second test results are not the first cold pull. It is the third pull. If it is of any use here is the data: 88 degrees F, 30.25 in -Hg, Humidity 36%, STD 1.02. Big fan blowing toward front of car. The numbers were 653.93/598.16. The first pull numbers, based on your analysis, would have been higher. There were a few minutes between pulls. The first two were used for set up. I am sure that someone must have a chart like the one you need. Good luck!
As far as difference between a Mustang and Dynojet brand dyno goes, I’ve never taken a car off a Dynojet and run it on a Mustang or visa versa to say that "yep, you have to multiply or divide the brand X to equal the number from brand Y". I've only done it with an engine dyno to chassis Dynojet dyno with same PCM and exhaust.
Hi Sean. I retested my car after it was broken in on a Dynojet. Based on the results, the conversion factor usually used to adjust between the two types of dynamometer - 10% - is accurate. There are a few reliable sites online that discuss the differences between the two types of dynamometers which also use the 10% conversion factor. My second test results are not the first cold pull. It is the third pull. If it is of any use here is the data: 88 degrees F, 30.25 in -Hg, Humidity 36%, STD 1.02. Big fan blowing toward front of car. The numbers were 653.93/598.16. The first pull numbers, based on your analysis, would have been higher. There were a few minutes between pulls. The first two were used for set up. I am sure that someone must have a chart like the one you need. Good luck!
Thanks for the insight on the Mustang dyno differences guys.
Mark, on the Ram, I've had a couple of them in here with similar results (leaner up top). We've switched them out to larger injectors and a VEC to get the tuning dialed in, especially the part needed in getting past the closed loop timer where it holds the AF ratio at 14.7 at full throttle for the first 1.5 seconds.
Boost on that truck with the Paxton kit was 8.3 psi at 5,800 RPM.
Regarding the fan, I agree that moving down the road may move more air through the cooler, but the commercial carpet dryer fans move a ton of air (great for the dyno). However, sometimes air doesn't always do what you think it will at certain speeds (in which case a manometer is a great tool).
Bob, thanks for the info and hopefully someone can provide a stock Paxton graph on a Dynojet. Do you have the SAE numbers instead of STD? Standard numbers read higher than SAE corrected numbers (neither are actual, but rather calculations based on conditions). A standard at 1.02 would be much higher than an SAE number.
Here are the same Paxton powered dyno graphs with the correction factor changed to standard. In this case, the STD numbers are about 15 higher.
Mark, on the Ram, I've had a couple of them in here with similar results (leaner up top). We've switched them out to larger injectors and a VEC to get the tuning dialed in, especially the part needed in getting past the closed loop timer where it holds the AF ratio at 14.7 at full throttle for the first 1.5 seconds.
Boost on that truck with the Paxton kit was 8.3 psi at 5,800 RPM.
Regarding the fan, I agree that moving down the road may move more air through the cooler, but the commercial carpet dryer fans move a ton of air (great for the dyno). However, sometimes air doesn't always do what you think it will at certain speeds (in which case a manometer is a great tool).
Bob, thanks for the info and hopefully someone can provide a stock Paxton graph on a Dynojet. Do you have the SAE numbers instead of STD? Standard numbers read higher than SAE corrected numbers (neither are actual, but rather calculations based on conditions). A standard at 1.02 would be much higher than an SAE number.
Here are the same Paxton powered dyno graphs with the correction factor changed to standard. In this case, the STD numbers are about 15 higher.
You must be registered for see images
I dont know whats different about a truck vs the SRT-10, but as Mark stated, the Viper car, carries power all the way to 6K rpms, whereas the truck in your graph carries it to 5500, then drops off. Also, just me personally, but Ive never seen a Paxton car on dyno lose 50 rwhp between runs even with stock cooler.
As Bob stated and from what Ive seen posted, it seems most stock Paxton apllications see about 630-640rwhp and 600 rwtq on a dynojet, with stock tuning.
A little tuning, headers, exhaust and 700rwhp is easyily reached.
At any rate, Im sure everyone expects yours to be better. Otherwise there wouldnt be much reason to build it. You know whats out there, you've got plenty of research to beat a Paxton blower thats been out for years. So it should be interesting to see what you bring to the table. Cant wait to start seeing the hp #'s, 1/4 mile times and vids.
As Bob stated and from what Ive seen posted, it seems most stock Paxton apllications see about 630-640rwhp and 600 rwtq on a dynojet, with stock tuning.
A little tuning, headers, exhaust and 700rwhp is easyily reached.
At any rate, Im sure everyone expects yours to be better. Otherwise there wouldnt be much reason to build it. You know whats out there, you've got plenty of research to beat a Paxton blower thats been out for years. So it should be interesting to see what you bring to the table. Cant wait to start seeing the hp #'s, 1/4 mile times and vids.
Here are a couple, I beleive mostly stock, stock tune, richest disc and belt slip. That is one problem with Paxton but the DLM tensioner fixes that.
Here is another just for fun, my buddies tuned Paxton, vs a Roe Gen 2. They used to argue whose might be faster if he hadnt sold it.
Here is another just for fun, my buddies tuned Paxton, vs a Roe Gen 2. They used to argue whose might be faster if he hadnt sold it.
Dustman
Viper Owner
At any rate, Im sure everyone expects yours to be better. Otherwise there wouldnt be much reason to build it. You know whats out there, you've got plenty of research to beat a Paxton blower thats been out for years. So it should be interesting to see what you bring to the table. Cant wait to start seeing the hp #'s, 1/4 mile times and vids.
I for once would be quite happy with a Roe-charger that produces somewhat equal numbers as the Paxton for a better price than the Paxton
... 
