Paxton vs PD Blower - my Z06 vs my Viper

[plumcrazy]

*cough* 1Tony1 Roe time 9.44 W/O NOS *cough*

i sent tony a PM asking the story on his track numbers soon as i posted that.

here is his sig

Old Roe S/C numbers:
9.28 @ 151mph with nitrous, 9.68 @ 143.49mph no nitrous,10.41 @ 149mph on Pilots

i just dont know if that 10.41 is no nitrous or not. and i "think" brians paxton car ran 9.28 correct ?

I know back in the day, i was told.... there was never a roe to beat a guy from ft lauderdale who owned a paxton car

 

[99 R/T 10]

The 10.41 was on street tires, not sure if it was with Nitrous. I had remembered his time wrong, corrected my post, 9.68 sounds right. Brian's car was the fastest built Paxton as far as I know. 9.24 I think, his car was slightly faster than Tony's, but that was with Kevin driving.

Caveat, both these cars are top of the heap with regards to both driver and power

 

[plumcrazy]

Mike, im not buying kevin being better than tony. i told tony i wasnt blowing smoke up his @$$ either. tony has too much time and experience in that roe car.

what was YOUR best time minus the nitrous ?

not looking to debate the roe v pax thing anymore. this is a dang good discussion, just posting some facts to it.

 

[ViperGeorge]

the only problem when you start putting more boost to a SC motor is the strain on the crank snout. trust me, you dont wanna break one off. the more boost, the tighter you have to keep that belt to keep from slipping. if you dont have a better tensioner, its not going to work so good. the 10 rib belt also helps in this case.

this (the belt) is where the ROE has a big advantage over the paxton

Plum's right on here. Doug Levin will tell you that Paxtons will slip their belts reducing boost. I have one of his special tensioners on my 06 Paxton and my boost levels are higher than 5 1/2 to 6 lbs. His tensioner is small money compared to some of the suggestions here so I suggest giving it a try first. Maybe the OP is just losing some boost because his belt is slipping slightly.

Also (shameless plug here) if anyone wants a Paxton car with a fresh engine with all forged internals, ATI damper, swinging oil pickup and more see my classified ad. You could easily change the pulley on my Paxton and the engine would be safe (assuming a proper tune). My rods are good to 1200 HP supposedly.

 

[GONABITE]

All of my cruising buddies have corvettes from base models to ZO6s and even a ZR1, all have been modified in one way or another. I have gone from just headers exhuast and a tune to a TT setup. If i am within 60 HP of a corvette it will beat me. I have had 3:07 and i have and 3:55. My latest roll on was against the ZR1 that car was putting down about 660 RWHP with stock gears I have 720 RWHP and the 355s which by the way are being replaced with the 307 and a OS Giken, anyway at 60 mph he would take me on the launch and it would take me getting to about 120 mph before I walked him down we did this several times and finally I got my car so it was building nice boost just before we hit it and still he got me by about a car length and then I grabbed him. So between weight, gearing and without a doubt a roots style blower on the ZR1 it makes it very hard for a slightly modded N/A car or a stock motor paxton able to keep up right away, and as far as the TT cars just make sure your into boost as you do your roll on it makes a big difference. BTW my ROE supercharged GTS was an awesome car and I pulled a best 1/4 mi time of 10.37 at 132. In every test drive and now for us we see it in on the street as well the corvette is quicker but not necessarily faster there is a difference.

 

[Twister]

say whaaaat

 

[V10TT]

Any gear but a 3.07 on a TT Viper is just the wrong gear.

Now when you run the ZR1 you need to be a 4k rpms, and brake boost. Hold the brake and start pushing the throttle until you build 7 lbs. or so, and then let it eat.
Come back and tell me what you think.. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

Or you can set up the anti-lag with the AEM, activate it for 2 secs, and HOLD ON!!

Without brake boosting from a roll on a TT car, you are just leaving a lot of "HIT" on the table.

Also on Turbo cars the turbo size and the A/R makes a difference. When my car had the T3s GT35s with .58 ARs it hit HARD from 3500 rpms. Party was over at 5500 rpms though..

Now with the TT 76s, at 3500 rpms just stabbing the throttle it does not have that hit at all, unless I brake boost, or use the anti-lag..
AFter 4500 rpms though it pulls like a **** all the way to 6200. I bet on 4th gear it would walk the GT35 set up I had before at the same power levels..

 

[Red Snake]

sadly, i have never been in a stock paxton car. mine is stroked and pushing 14lbs, the above comment about paxton cars in this range is dead on. 750rwTQ @ 3500rpm is fun stuff and especially when the torque doesnt drop off till around 5500rpms unlike the twin screws.

..........

As previously pointed out the difference here is the type of S/C on each car. Below is one of my old dynographs from when I ran 8 pounds of boost (stock motor) and made 635 rwhp. Note that my car still made over 600 rwtrq at 5500 rpms. I am not sure why people think the Roe cars drop off torque..they don't. I shift at 5500-5600 rpms so I am still making plenty of torque. Also, I am making over 600 rwtrq from the hit.

I would be more than happy to line up with a stock motor paxton car and see what happens. I think the results will be very similar to Nine Ball's experience.

 

[Red Snake]

Here's the 2 graphs back to back. IMO the torque graph tells the story.

You must be registered for see images

 

[plumcrazy]

red, isnt it that teal colored torque line ? its dropping off at 4K no ?

 

[Red Snake]

red, isnt it that teal colored torque line ? its dropping off at 4K no ?

It's still over 600 rwtrq all the way to the shift point at 5500 rpms. Yeah, technically 650 to 610 is a drop but considering that it's still over 600 and that HP takes over at some point, I don't think that equates to any loss. It's still pulling like a ***** all the way to the shift, lol.

The paxtons PEAK torque (from Nineballs graph) is 601. The Roe graph is over 600 from the hit to 5500 rpms.

 

[GONABITE]

Any gear but a 3.07 on a TT Viper is just the wrong gear.

Now when you run the ZR1 you need to be a 4k rpms, and brake boost. Hold the brake and start pushing the throttle until you build 7 lbs. or so, and then let it eat.
Come back and tell me what you think.. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

Or you can set up the anti-lag with the AEM, activate it for 2 secs, and HOLD ON!!

Without brake boosting from a roll on a TT car, you are just leaving a lot of "HIT" on the table.

Also on Turbo cars the turbo size and the A/R makes a difference. When my car had the T3s GT35s with .58 ARs it hit HARD from 3500 rpms. Party was over at 5500 rpms though..

Now with the TT 76s, at 3500 rpms just stabbing the throttle it does not have that hit at all, unless I brake boost, or use the anti-lag..
AFter 4500 rpms though it pulls like a **** all the way to 6200. I bet on 4th gear it would walk the GT35 set up I had before at the same power levels..

Yes sir thats what I learned and it was a big difference. This is my first turbo car now I know. As far as the 355s I put those in when I thought I was not going to do any other mods. Now that I have the TT that why the 307 OS Giken is going in. Should be back to me next week.

 

[pumpgas]

Nineball, I would also consider switching to the Novi 2200 that just came out which is what I am going to do (especially if you put in the rods and pistons). I believe that at the same 15lbs of boost, the car will make at least 100rwhp more, just under 1000rwhp which would make the Viper a much better deal cost wise than a modded Z06 and very, very tough on the street to beat in a roll race. Since we have the paxton systems already it's just a head unit swap which is like $2K from what I am being told by Paxton. You would just need the methanol to run pump gas.

2003-2006 Viper / $35K - $50K
Paxton system / $10K (with the novi 2200)
Injectors / $1K
SCT tune / $800.00
Delete the cats / $500.00
Clutch / $1K
Pistons and Rods (installed) / $5K
**** system / $1K

950-1,000 RWHP on pumpgas for under $60k.

Tom

 

[99 R/T 10]

Mike, im not buying kevin being better than tony. i told tony i wasnt blowing smoke up his @$$ either. tony has too much time and experience in that roe car.

what was YOUR best time minus the nitrous ?

not looking to debate the roe v pax thing anymore. this is a dang good discussion, just posting some facts to it.

My best time was a 10.65 on runcraps, no Nitrous.

 

[mnc2886]

I've run my Viper against a few 2008+ bolt-on Vipers. I usually put 2 car lengths on them through 4th gear, but once in 5th gear they catch up. Why? Because the rpm drop is so horrid in 5th that I'm barely making any boost. Then the 600 hp engine motors past the 500 hp engine. As a rough estimate, you'd likely need at least 100-150 more rwhp than a modded Z06 to break even with it, unless you have twins or a roots blower on the Viper.

Anyone else a little shocked by this? We've seen that full bolt-on 08+ vipers can push 630 rwhp (heads done as well). If that is the case, an 08 viper, with every mod available right now, putting down 630 rwhp, would loose to your magnacharged vette since your vette is beating your viper?

 

[plumcrazy]

Nineball, I would also consider switching to the Novi 2200 that just came out which is what I am going to do (especially if you put in the rods and pistons). I believe that at the same 15lbs of boost, the car will make at least 100rwhp more

i dont think the 2500 is going to make anywhere near that much more power but time will tell. and if any more power is made im curious to how much under the curve. i have a feeling its going to need more RPM's to take advantage of the 2500 and vipers typicaly dont spin very high

 

[ROCKET62]

I think Red Snake hit it on the head FOR THIS COMPARISON of a ROOTS type blower vs. the CENTRIFUGAL Paxton. Bottom line is in a Paxton Viper - you would need to be at 4000 rpm in a roll on race with this roots Vette for the Vette to not pull away (although the gearing may still effect this.)

Look at the graph at 3000 rpm. The Vette Roots combo is making somewhere around 30 hp and 50 lbs torque more than the Viper Paxton combo.

Seems that this debate on the Paxton vs Roe was beat to death in the Gen 1/2 forum years ago.

Here's the 2 graphs back to back. IMO the torque graph tells the story.

 

[plumcrazy]

=you cant debate the paxton/roe thing in here really. its a VETTE versus a viper with 2 different kinds of SC.

its a shame there isnt 2 very similar vipers with a roe and a paxton to compare them. this debate with the vette is silly, its a totally different animal. but nine ball didnt start this thread for that reason so im gonna keep my mouth shut now. sorry tony.

 

[Seb]

where does rpm drop to on the 2-3 shift and the 3-4 shift. Does anyone have this data?

 

[Red Snake]

=you cant debate the paxton/roe thing in here really. its a VETTE versus a viper with 2 different kinds of SC.

its a shame there isnt 2 very similar vipers with a roe and a paxton to compare them. this debate with the vette is silly, its a totally different animal. but nine ball didnt start this thread for that reason so im gonna keep my mouth shut now. sorry tony.

I agree, this isn't about the Viper Roe vs Viper Paxton. But I think it's relevant for the purposes of the question posed by NineBall. I think the Vette is beating the Viper in HIS case because of the roots style S/C vs the centrifugal. That's all I was trying to say.



On the otherhand though, I am willing to meet you in Mexico to compare the two systems (Viper to Viper) if the opportunity ever presents.

 

[Red Snake]

So, what is it going to take to put the Viper back on top in this match up? Hopefully not something extreme like a built engine and turbos. I'd like to use the Paxton, if possible.

Tony

So to answer the original question, Nine Ball.....My opinion is that you need to build the engine in the Viper (at least swap to forged pistons and rods) and up the boost on the Paxton. A fully built motor would give you more grunt down low, which would offset the advantage that the Vette has with the roots style blower while the forged internals and head porting/increased boost would give you alot more top end power.

 

[GONABITE]

Two solutions:

1. Lighten the car by a couple hundred pounds.

OR

2. Add 75 to 100 HP over what the ZR1 has

 

[Twister]

This is every bit about the superchargers!!!!!

The 550 rwhp stock 2008 walks awy from the 450 rwhp z06..At a good rate I might add...Go to youtube and it is very impressive how much the 08 Viper is faster than the z06 stock for stock..
A 630 rwhp bolt on 08 Viper will just as impressively walk away from a cammed/bolt on 530 rwhp C6Z06...

Were not talking about vipers in general. We are talking about the paxtoned srt10's. A 650 rwhp paxton srt10 is a lil slower than a 550 rwhp roots style Z06...I guarantee a 600 rwhp NA gen 3 will run door to door with the 550 rwhp roots supercharged z06..

so this debate is completely about the paxton verses roots...There is nothing magical about the Z06..Ive ran door to door or even slighty beat a Z06 that had 25 more rwhp than I did..So no way I belieave you need 100 plus more rwhp to be even. The 2008's are no where even..3 mph faster in the 1/4 mile and over a second faster to 150 mph...its the paxtonBig numbers on the dyno but only for a short period..Not unlike the 6o0 rwhp supra that only runs 12' and gets beat by 450 rwhp camaros. How many of our 630-700 rwhp paxton guys only trapp 128-130 mph and run 11.3's???? Honestly the car rn 11.9 at 120-122 mph stock

Truth be told a 600 rwhp bolt on gen4 will out perform your basic paxton..If only Sean Roe had found a way....We'd have a bunch of 640 rwhp srt's out these trapping 135-138 mph and this 560 rwhpZ06 wouldnt be a problem..He offers a turbo for 13k...Had 3-4 people do it so far...

whats the point of haveing a 700 rwhp dyno and your car perfoms like a 575 rwhp car?

 

[RECOIL]

Someone want to buy my Paxton?

Heh.

 

[viperpat]

Sounds like you all should put a LS7 in your vipers lol

 

[shooter_t1]

Sounds like you all should put a LS7 in your vipers lol

You 1st sport.

 

[mnc2886]

Sounds like you all should put a LS7 in your vipers lol

 

[viperpat]

My viper stock shifts 2nd 92 3rd 123 4th 162
see video
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6R8y9wR4NA[/media]
your numbers are off

Gears in the 1/4 mile help provided you got traction, and you can use all of 4th gear.
In the 60-155 race for these two cars I beleive it will not make a difference, and here is why.

the viper with its 3.07 at 6k rpms can pull:

2nd to 86 mph
3rd 119 mph
4th 156 mph.

Z06 with its 3.42 gears, and 7k shift rpm can pull:
2nd to 91 mph
3rd to 125 mph
4th to 162 mph

Now put 3.55s on the Viper with the same 6k shift rpm
2nd 74 mph
3rd 103 mph
4th 135 mph

If both cars start at 60 and the Viper has the 3.55s gears, I bet the Vette will not jump it as hard, or they might even stay even for a little....

Now comes 74 mph, and the Viper shifts to 3rd, but the vette is still in 2nd gear on its sweet spot all the way to 92 mph and now it has more gear multiplication (2nd vs. third on the Snake).

At 103 the Viper shifts to 4th, and the vette is now in 3rd... again advantage Vette because of more gearing...

Now at 135 is when it will get really UGLY!, the viper will go into 5th gear, and the vette is just getting into its sweet power band in 4th, plus the Viper has done one x-tra shift in the race to make it to 160 ....Now is when the vette will put bus lenghts on the Viper..

 

[mnc2886]

My viper stock shifts 2nd 92 3rd 123 4th 162
see video
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6R8y9wR4NA[/media]
your numbers are off

I don't think his numbers are off. First, it looks like you may have gone slightly past 6000. Second, tire size/pressure have a lot to do with that exact relation of speed and rpm. Lastly, speedometers aren't quite that accurate, especially the faster you are going.

 

[shooter_t1]

My viper stock shifts 2nd 92 3rd 123 4th 162

Yep. Same here. 164 on GPS in 4th.