Tony our court system (NJ )is so backlogged that civil suits filed more than 3 years ago are still pending (waiting to be heard )
Police Officer Faces Charges for Viper Crash
- Thread starter Bobpantax
- Start date
Warfang
Enthusiast
Politics.
(Sorry...just trying to lighten the mood a little...and save it from getting too personal in here)
If you cant fight and laugh together... you're not family!
Warfang
Enthusiast
We have a Burn him hes a witch crowd here.
How fast was this guy going, can anyone tell me by just looking at the car.
[media]http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/04/medium_2383728926_fb2d2d5c3f_o.jpg[/media][media]http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/04/medium_2383728822_6f6a7cfdee_o.jpg[/media]
How fast was this guy going, can anyone tell me by just looking at the car.
[media]http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/04/medium_2383728926_fb2d2d5c3f_o.jpg[/media][media]http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/04/medium_2383728822_6f6a7cfdee_o.jpg[/media]
dave6666
Enthusiast
I bet you can do that much damage at 10 to 20 mph.
But I'm not an expert, just a guesser.
eliems
Viper Owner
The cockpit looks to be intact, I wonder what caused the passenger's demise? Was he not wearing a seatbelt?
Warfang
Enthusiast
I bet you can do that much damage at 10 to 20 mph.
But I'm not an expert, just a guesser.
Looks above 45 to me. I'm not a guesser, but I play one on teevee and stayed at a holiday inn.
All we know is that an indicvidual, who happened to be a police officer, was driving a Viper at a high rate of speed with a friend along for the ride. A behvaior which I am willing to bet more than 30% of the members of the VCA have experienced if not more. Something happened. We do not know what that something was. There was a terrible crash and his friend was killed. He was charged with vehicular homicide. He has not been tried yet. How about we keep an open, collective mind until we have enough evidence to make a fair judgment. In a criminal case that means evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. To do so is not liberal or conservative. It is just proper.
Warfang
Enthusiast
He was also on duty was he not? That makes a HUGE difference.
I think there are two different issues here.
One is the Police so-called professional courtesy, It is wrong on all levels. I do not believe that professional courtesy is extended to real criminal activities (like this case or the one cited in the example above), but primarily for traffic offenses (civil offenses). I have read many officers here explain that keeping it inside is best for all. I completely disagree. Lliving outside of the very system that they invoke on the citizenry provides for a double standard, and one which can be a severe penalty on the non police. Maybe there would be more understanding of the police if they had to live in the same world we do.
As for the case above it lacks enough detail to truly make a case one way or the other. The picture looks like much more than a 90 mph collision, but the speed estimates (if done honestly) should provide that insight. I am not happy with time off with pay. Name one other profession that would provide that result. I think there are only 2 choices: work with pay, or suspension without pay. Suspension with pay is like a vacation. Effectively a reward for bad behavior. The legal system should be an impetus for correct behavior. Not a protective shield for bad behaviors.
One is the Police so-called professional courtesy, It is wrong on all levels. I do not believe that professional courtesy is extended to real criminal activities (like this case or the one cited in the example above), but primarily for traffic offenses (civil offenses). I have read many officers here explain that keeping it inside is best for all. I completely disagree. Lliving outside of the very system that they invoke on the citizenry provides for a double standard, and one which can be a severe penalty on the non police. Maybe there would be more understanding of the police if they had to live in the same world we do.
As for the case above it lacks enough detail to truly make a case one way or the other. The picture looks like much more than a 90 mph collision, but the speed estimates (if done honestly) should provide that insight. I am not happy with time off with pay. Name one other profession that would provide that result. I think there are only 2 choices: work with pay, or suspension without pay. Suspension with pay is like a vacation. Effectively a reward for bad behavior. The legal system should be an impetus for correct behavior. Not a protective shield for bad behaviors.
On duty but at lunch. Can anyone explain this. A quick web search turned this up, odd that the dept tried to deny this officers claim stating that he wasn't on duty when he broke his arm because he was at lunch.
Police officer injured during lunch break entitled to benefits | Law Reporter | Find Articles at BNET
On duty is performing their job during their assigned shift. Lunch and driving a viper without his gun would have me believe that he wasn't on official duty? I don't know this for sure as I'm not a law enforcement officer so again this is speculation on my part.
Police officer injured during lunch break entitled to benefits | Law Reporter | Find Articles at BNET
On duty is performing their job during their assigned shift. Lunch and driving a viper without his gun would have me believe that he wasn't on official duty? I don't know this for sure as I'm not a law enforcement officer so again this is speculation on my part.
dave6666
Enthusiast
So how fast was the darn car going in the pics you posted Chris? 
Kevan
Enthusiast
Chris- are there any more crappy cell phone pics of that crash you posted?
Just from those grainy pics, I'd say he was doing under 50 mph.
The rented black one shows utter devastation.
That's 120+ in my non-expert opinion.
"94 mph" would keep it under the "30 mph over the posted limit" bar (if it's 65 there).
Just from those grainy pics, I'd say he was doing under 50 mph.
The rented black one shows utter devastation.
That's 120+ in my non-expert opinion.
"94 mph" would keep it under the "30 mph over the posted limit" bar (if it's 65 there).
DJ'sviper
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This is very sad. I try to keep my racing at the track. Makes me think about the times I took friends out and punched it. Who doesn't want to have a little fun and think it is safe. Think about it the next time you want to do something for kicks. I'm sure he had no idea just how much power was under him and with old tires? It is very unfortunate for their families and I appreciate his years of service he has done for the community.
The additional charges may have been filed, in part, so that upon conviction the government he works for can revoke his pension. The next question is whether or not they would be cold enough, and the applicable law would allow them, to try the same move with respect to the deceased friend's pension. It would certainly send a brutal and powerful message to other officers about the possible cost of this type of alleged behavior.
Not sure if I agree with you Bob. If a normal citizen was involved their pension would not be in question, wheher they were driving during work hours or not. They could of course be released for cause if it was during work hours.
All told I would like the police to live by the same set of laws, and applied equally without prejudice as all other citizens. Flashing a badge should get them nothing other than a hello, you should know better ...
All told I would like the police to live by the same set of laws, and applied equally without prejudice as all other citizens. Flashing a badge should get them nothing other than a hello, you should know better ...
SkyBob
Enthusiast
I don't know how fast he was driving but it must have been some fancy aerobatics to come to a rest on top of that flat-bed trailer.
Hi. I am not stating something to agree or disagree with. I am merely making an observation. It is not uncommon for the law to allow the revocation/cancellation of a pension if a crime was committed while an officer was on duty. It is also not unusual for a city, county or state to take advantage of such a law - particularly in hard economic times. It is a cold thing to do but it is done. Also, police are subject to a higher standard of bevavior whether that standard is enforced or not. State and Federal sentencing guidelines contain an upward adjustment when a position of trust is involved in a crime. I am not saying this is relevant here. I only mention this to show that police are not the same as civilians in many legal contexts even if they think they are.
Personally, as a NJ resident i believe this officer will be prosocuted to the fullest extent of the law (especially with all of the media attention that has been drawn to it ,fatality ect )BUT had there NOT BEEN a fatality or a major accident and the two policeman were pulled over for doing 94 mph NOTHING MORE would have been made of it ( they simply would have been told to have a nice day-nothing more)As other NJ residents have posted in NJ you get stopped doing 94 in a 45 or a 55 not only will the car be impounded but the driver will get speeding (30 plus over )and a reckless driving ticket as well.There will be a MANDATORY court appearance (it will be recommedent to the defend that he have a lawyer )and if convicted the judge can take his license. By the time its all said and done the total cost can be in the thousands(ATTORNEY ,IMPOUND COURT FINES COST ,INSURANCE SURCHARGE) with a nice loss of driving priviledges.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
I'll bet it's low, like 20MPH. There are no marks across the entire fascia, so the impact was against something small in width, between the frame rails. OEM designs are based on blunt impacts - other cars - where they can spread the loads.
That said, there is a significant mechanical engineering field in crash reconstruction. I am not in that field, but would not be surprised that the speed reported for an official process would be the minimum that could be justified by a technical peer group using several independent measurements (i.e. black box says 94, skid marks and distance traveled says 104, structural frame damage says 119; pick 94.) It won't be an "average."
dave6666
Enthusiast
We might have to get together for a beer on this one.
Still waiting on Chris to spill the beans...
Allegedly 45 MPH on the crash I posted. I hate to dig that one up, a friend who worked at the dealership said he knew the porter and this guy wasn't the type to go out and dork around in a newly purchased car. This was a case of i grabbed brake and got gas, although I don't know that as I wasn't there and am speculating again.
We have only have one picture of the car the officer was driving. We can make an educated guess at how fast the car was traveling. Several posts have thrown out the basic principal of our legal system which was mentioned, innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Had I been asked to determine this persons outcome based on that single photo as several here have, could it honestly say yes hes guilty of all charges, highly doubtful.
Regardless of him being a law enforcement officer he is still entitled to due process in which professionals will look at all evidence and if it goes far enough he will be judged by a jury of his peers.
It was an accident someone died, kids were left without a father, wife without a husband and a person has to live with this the rest of his life. Bad judgment call most likely but we have all been there and done that. I know that if I were ever on trial I'd hope like hell that 90% of the posters on this thread were dismissed by by one of the lawyers in the case or I'd just go ahead and break out the **** rope myself.
Off the soapbox.
We have only have one picture of the car the officer was driving. We can make an educated guess at how fast the car was traveling. Several posts have thrown out the basic principal of our legal system which was mentioned, innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Had I been asked to determine this persons outcome based on that single photo as several here have, could it honestly say yes hes guilty of all charges, highly doubtful.
Regardless of him being a law enforcement officer he is still entitled to due process in which professionals will look at all evidence and if it goes far enough he will be judged by a jury of his peers.
It was an accident someone died, kids were left without a father, wife without a husband and a person has to live with this the rest of his life. Bad judgment call most likely but we have all been there and done that. I know that if I were ever on trial I'd hope like hell that 90% of the posters on this thread were dismissed by by one of the lawyers in the case or I'd just go ahead and break out the **** rope myself.
Off the soapbox.
Tabs1
Viper Owner
Break the law and there are consequences. Kill someone while breaking the law and things turn more serious. Do it while being a sworn in police officer on duty and things should be worse. Yes they should be held to a higher standard. All professionals are.
Have we all done 94 mph or more in our viper, Im sure the answer is yes, how many people did you kill.
If you did kill someone, you know you are fu****. End of story.
Innocent until proven guilty - Was he speeding? Was it a reckless speed? Was he on duty? Did someone die?
Its just a matter of time. Hard to dispute most of those.
Plus in NJ law, look up reckless driving, what does it say?
It is to drive with reckless abandonment for the safety of others and yourself. To put others in harms way due to your actions. And what happens when you put others in harms way? They get hurt or die, dont they?
Arrogance breeds stupidity.
Have we all done 94 mph or more in our viper, Im sure the answer is yes, how many people did you kill.
If you did kill someone, you know you are fu****. End of story.
Innocent until proven guilty - Was he speeding? Was it a reckless speed? Was he on duty? Did someone die?
Its just a matter of time. Hard to dispute most of those.
Plus in NJ law, look up reckless driving, what does it say?
It is to drive with reckless abandonment for the safety of others and yourself. To put others in harms way due to your actions. And what happens when you put others in harms way? They get hurt or die, dont they?
Arrogance breeds stupidity.
BolsOut
Viper Owner
I'll give a general synopsis, but it applies only to CHP (California Highway Patrol) Officers...
Called EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operations Coarse) its an approximately Six to Seven Week course that starts in the classroom with vehicle dynamics & mechanical instruction- learn the car inside & out.
-Hands on starts on the cone pattern with basic low speed handling & parking maneuvers (alot of our accidents are from plain-ol backing up). Get into high-speed backing & evasive maneuvers (Pedestrian / obstacle avoidance) & higher speed braking & lane transitions, also start learning the PIT maneuver.
-Transition to Skid Pan. Skid pan is a purpose built approx 1/4th mile serpentine oval that is constantly wet (built in water jets every few feet). Patrol cars wear slicks. Idea is to enter a constant state of oversteer & control it with throttle, going back&forth&back&forth. At times we would do this for up to TWO HOURS straight, quite the exercise in focus & endurance. There would be up to four cars on the course at any one time so if you didnt keep it going or you spun out, there was a possibility of a pile-up (I spun into another car once).
-Transition to high-speed track. Is an approximately 3 mile purpose built track made to same specs as any professional race course, if not a little more complex to approximate various road conditions seen in real world. There are several high speed turns & one VERY high speed banked turn which allow the cars to be driven to their maximum (up to 130 mph). Also includes blind/ decreasing radius, ascending & descending turns. Cars have full roll cages with six-point harnesses & we wear helmets with microphones to communicate with instructors both inside & outside the cars. We drive all of these courses rain or shine, night or day and the high-speed is for real. Not uncommon to roll a car off this track. Our senior class had one of their students and an Instructor Officer roll a car at high speed & have to get air-lifted out.
-Next is Pursuit driving where we put it all together. Again, there is a purpose built "mini-city" with many different types of roadways, intersections, signs, transitions, etc...Our job as students is to "chase" an instructor through the city, using all the knowledge & skills we've acquired so far. Of course, there are several "traps" like road construction & simulated pedestrians in blind corners that force us to react & employ all our skills.
-Each segment of EVOC is closely scrutinized & graded. Fail a segment, and you fail out of the Academy. We lost a bunch of good guys in EVOC, one was an 8 year veteran of the SFPD, just couldnt pass the Skid-Pan. Thats were I almost washed out.
-I also gotta say that the Instructors (they are all CHP Officers) are World Class drivers (you can see some of their demo work on YouTube), as is the curriculum.
-If you pass, you will have more knowledge & skill than 99.9% of the vehicle occupiers out there. The trick is maintaining those skills, but the department does a great job with refreshers & such.
*Not to toot my own horn, but this is why most departments in this state will turn over pursuits to the CHP when they can.
Here are some examples from YouTube...These demos are for family & friends of current Academy Cadets.
YouTube - CHP EVOC
YouTube - CHP-EVOC-Demo
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dave6666
Enthusiast
Thats sounds very comprehensive. I had no idea. I wonder what the average traffic cop in hometown USA gets compared to that?
slaughterj
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That may have been your approach some years ago, and that is your personal observation. But in more recent times, we have gone through several periods of economic difficulty, and the scientific studies have shown that each one results in an increased percentage of tickets given due to state and local governments pushing for more "revenue" through citations, which does not slacken once the economy recovers. (See, e.g., Evidence That Traffic Tickets Aren’t Just About Road Safety | Popular Science). Therefore, after each such period, the percentage ticketed continues to increase, and ends up far higher than the personal statistics you cited. As a result, if police continue to avoid tickets due to "professional courtesy" while the rest of the populace is subject more and more frequently to them, then that is patently unfair.
PatentLaw
Enthusiast
Patently unfair.........great pun. I got that.
Agree with Slaughterj.
Agree with Slaughterj.
eliems
Viper Owner
Just an observation from a Canadian perspective here but the trip I took three weeks ago, driving the RT back to Canada from LA was an eye opener.
You people have more State Troopers per 100 miles along the I5 and Coastal Routes than I have seen anywhere in the world! Also planes overhead (that follow Vipers for miles) waiting for a car to pull around slower traffic that will not move over and travelling over the speed limit for a minute resulting in a ticket?
The conditions of your highways are terrible! Even driving through San Francisco and on to the Golden Gate Bridge was a kidney jolting experience that made me recognize how good we have it here in British Columbia.
Of coursse you need to be in a Viper to really get the full feeling!
You people have more State Troopers per 100 miles along the I5 and Coastal Routes than I have seen anywhere in the world! Also planes overhead (that follow Vipers for miles) waiting for a car to pull around slower traffic that will not move over and travelling over the speed limit for a minute resulting in a ticket?
The conditions of your highways are terrible! Even driving through San Francisco and on to the Golden Gate Bridge was a kidney jolting experience that made me recognize how good we have it here in British Columbia.
Of coursse you need to be in a Viper to really get the full feeling!
lagalaxy13
Viper Owner
Just seeing the pic, I bet he's feeling just lucky to be alive.
My dad was killed on his motorcycle by a driver pulling in front of him, guy got 30 hours of commiunty service, don't have to be a officer to get off in our court system.
My dad was killed on his motorcycle by a driver pulling in front of him, guy got 30 hours of commiunty service, don't have to be a officer to get off in our court system.
Warfang
Enthusiast
You think San Francisco is bad? Try Michigan.Just an observation from a Canadian perspective here but the trip I took three weeks ago, driving the RT back to Canada from LA was an eye opener.
You people have more State Troopers per 100 miles along the I5 and Coastal Routes than I have seen anywhere in the world! Also planes overhead (that follow Vipers for miles) waiting for a car to pull around slower traffic that will not move over and travelling over the speed limit for a minute resulting in a ticket?
The conditions of your highways are terrible! Even driving through San Francisco and on to the Golden Gate Bridge was a kidney jolting experience that made me recognize how good we have it here in British Columbia.
Of coursse you need to be in a Viper to really get the full feeling!
