Poor UGR experience. AKA: How UGR f-'d me over

[Joseph Dell]

Well folks. It finally happened. UGR has stooped lower than I ever thought possible. Not only has UGR screwed me over personally, but they have screwed over a handful of other viper owners. All in the name of making a few bucks.

As you all know, I have used the same engine shop that UGR uses for a very long time. As you also know, UGR has recently signed a deal with them to ONLY do their motors. The two exceptions HAD been previous customers AND existing business. Makes good sense. And I can respect that. And even if existing customers weren't allowed, there was at least ONE customer who could have run engines through the shop other than UGR. And I would have had choices other than UGR for my local engine work.

Well, I have had an engine up at the engine shop for a month now that has been 'stuck' because Kevin @ UGR has been whining like a baby, threatening to pull all of their business from this one engine shop if they serviced my engine. And we aren't even talking about doing an engine rebuild or assembly here. We are talking about some basic machining.

Kevin had an opportunity to do the right thing and allow me to finish my business with these folks. I've been quiet on the boards and had no intention of saying a word. Life would have been quiet. But instead, he went out of his way to ensure that I cannot get my engine work done there. And several other previous customers.

Worse, v10kingsnake (thanks Josh) provoked this by whining to Kevin that my engine was actually there. Stirring the *** as usual. Being a true ********, as usual.

wha wha wha.

I can understand why he doesn't want me to do my work there. I pay under 3k for the same work which he charges customers over 15k for! Attached are some motor build sheets just so you can all see how much of a 'mark-up' there is on the UGR engines.

Even though I provided my own rods and pistons, the cost of that hardware isn't more than ~2k. So the markup for the guy who is told "13k + core" to have an engine done by UGR... well that is borderline criminal.

No, the world won't end for me. I've already contracted with alternative engine builders to deal with my basic machining needs. But it is incredible how low UGR has gone in this case. To actually prevent me and the other EXISTING CUSTOMERS of the engine shop from getting their work done is insane. And also not allowing me to go through the one other person who was allowed to run engine business through that shop. Wow. I'm still in disbelief.

I'd like to publicly apologize to Jeff as well. I'd looked at purchasing a car from him but being that it is a UGR car I wanted to make sure that I could get it serviced locally in the event that I needed to. Kevin's dislike of me and other DIY people is so great that even if I'd bought Jeff's car I couldn't have the local engine shop that built it work on it!

How low is that?

That, my friends, is quite low.

And that, unfortunately, is all fact. indisputable fact.

I certainly respect the business decision of the engine builder and hold no ill-will. They are some great guys. I'm bummed I can't have them work on my engines but I understand. UGR, on the other hand, will never get a dollar of my $$$ ever.

Kevin - I know you told Jeff to have me call you. And you told Eric to have me call you. Well, I called you. Please disregard the message. I don't know why you were so insistent that I call you but I did and now I don't want to bother speaking to you. I have nothing to say to you. You've made your power-play. So be it.

That is all.

Flame suit on. For those of you considering UGR to do work on your car, a) consider the mark-up that you are about to pay for your outsourced engine work, and b) consider your options carefully. The engine work is most excellent. But the markup... not so much.

Joseph

 

[K-80-123]

I don't care about their mark-up.....they can charge what they want.....what I care about is the quality of the build and the finished product and that speaks for it self.

 

[plumcrazy]

i said in it in another thread....sorry to hear this joseph....hang in there.

 

[SquadX]

I got an over the phone quote from them for very similar work and it was alot lot higher then listed in your doc.
They do excellant work from what I hear and the few I have seem. ***** about the deal with your engine and I think that was main point of your post, even though you touched on there mark up.
I guess thats how business work but never the less, if your engine was at the shop before the deal was signed between them and UGR or if the shop (as they did) agreed to do the work, it should be honored for the listed price above. Just my 2 cents.

 

[2MANYTOYS]

You know Joe after all the underhanded crap you have pulled on Underground in the past year, I'm surprised Kevin didn't take a **** in each one of your ten cylinders when he saw your motor at Proline. You've been acting like a real nut job lately. I'm embarrassed for you.

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

I'm not to dignify this rant of an unstable personality with a lengthy response but I will put some key facts out there. Yes I have an exclusive deal with Pro-line to build Viper engines. This deal allows Tony Armour to have his personal engines built there now and in the future and all others have to go through Underground. Tony, 99RT/10 and i think Plumbcrazy have motors being finished there as we speak and that's fine with me. Did I decline to allow Joe Dell to have his motor excepted under the agreement, absolutely yes.

Joe Dell was part of the campaign to smear Underground last year with the information dug up about high school court records and has made numerous unsupported accusations regarding Underground records and dyno sheets. I'm expected to except him into my agreement? Not going to happen.

Regarding his bogus accusations about Proline costs and my pricing. To give you an example, my cost to build Walt's motor "short block" no heads was $12,000. I have never charged someone $15,000 for a Proline "short block only build", ever. Joe has had a grudge against Underground ever since I declined to help him with his tune last year. The fact that his motor is again hurt and out of his car would indicate he needed it. I wanted nothing to do with his project.

The only thing that's going on here is competition, clean and above board. Phunk hit it pretty close in his post. I don't want anything to do with Joe Dell because of his erratic behavior and haven't for quite some time and he knows this.

 

[99 R/T 10]

I'm not to dignify this rant of an unstable personality with a lengthy response but I will put some key facts out there. Yes I have an exclusive deal with Pro-line to build Viper engines. This deal allows Tony Armour to have his personal engines built there now and in the future and all others have to go through Underground. Tony, 99RT/10 and i think Plumbcrazy have motors being finished there as we speak and that's fine with me. Did I decline to allow Joe Dell to have his motor excepted under the agreement, absolutely yes.

Joe Dell was part of the campaign to smear Underground last year with the information dug up about high school court records and has made numerous unsupported accusations regarding Underground records and dyno sheets. I'm expected to except him into my agreement? Not going to happen.

Regarding his bogus accusations about Proline costs and my pricing. To give you an example, my cost to build Walt's motor "short block" no heads was $12,000. I have never charged someone $15,000 for a Proline "short block only build", ever. Joe has had a grudge against Underground ever since I declined to help him with his tune last year. The fact that his motor is again hurt and out of his car would indicate he needed it. I wanted nothing to do with his project.

The only thing that's going on here is competition, clean and above board. Phunk hit it pretty close in his post. I don't want anything to do with Joe Dell because of his erratic behavior and haven't for quite some time and he knows this.

But Kevin, it's not like Proline is going to give out anyones secrets. All he was looking for was some machine work to get his car back on the road. To dictate to another business who they can and can not service seems a bit backhanded, don't you agree?

 

[Joseph Dell]

Kevin - I'm not the one who dug up your felony record nor have I ever asked you for help. Yet you have these delusions of the world where if one isn't swinging from your n*ts then they must be against you. Now look what you've done: You've let your personal delusions with me get in the way of business. How much business is this going to cost you? If ANY then it's too much. But hopefully I'll save some other Viper owner some aggravation. And hopefully you won't make _them_ a target just like you have me.

 

[GTSjbud]

It is very tough to do business with UGR when they won't return your emails and phone messages. I guess it for the better after reading this.

Thanks for posting your UGR experience JD and saving me some headaches.

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

But Kevin, it's not like Proline is going to give out anyones secrets. All he was looking for was some machine work to get his car back on the road. To dictate to another business who they can and can not service seems a bit backhanded, don't you agree?

No I don't agree. Joe Dell has made several public and private efforts to discredit me so I am not inclined to except him from my exclusive agreement with Pro-line. I'm not ashamed at all. You and Plum have never been involved is similar activities to my knowledge so I was happy to make an exception for the two of you. Nice of me to do that don't you agree?

 

[Joseph Dell]

UGR = god complex? naaaaahhh.

Other than BlownGTS's car where I publicly apologized where else do you have issue? I've told you numerous times AND sent you ALL of the unsolicited emails from the woman who brought out your record. What more evidence do you want than that?

You don't like Paolo. You don't like me. You don't like DIY folks. And you are playing god here.

Good for you! I hope it does you well.

And very nice of you to allow Plum to get his motor done at the same shop even though the snout snapped off the crank before it was under load. I know that wasn't your fault. Nor that of the builder. but maybe you could have saved him some trouble by enforcing your 'agreement' at an earlier time? no good deed goes unpunished I guess...

details.

 

[GTSjbud]

No I don't agree. Joe Dell has made several public and private efforts to discredit me so I am not inclined to except him from my exclusive agreement with Pro-line. I'm not ashamed at all. You and Plum have never been involved is similar activities to my knowledge so I was happy to make an exception for the two of you. Nice of me to do that don't you agree?

WOW!!!! sounds like you "OWN" Proline your royalness

 

[v10kingsnake]

UGR = god complex? naaaaahhh.

Other than BlownGTS's car where I publicly apologized where else do you have issue? I've told you numerous times AND sent you ALL of the unsolicited emails from the woman who brought out your record. What more evidence do you want than that?

You don't like Paolo. You don't like me. You don't like DIY folks. And you are playing god here.

Good for you! I hope it does you well.

And very nice of you to allow Plum to get his motor done at the same shop even though the snout snapped off the crank before it was under load. I know that wasn't your fault. Nor that of the builder. but maybe you could have saved him some trouble by enforcing your 'agreement' at an earlier time? no good deed goes unpunished I guess...

details.

Phil is a friend of you and I both JD. As a friend I have spoke to Kevin before at PHILS request. Never once has Kevin spoke badly of Plum. Phil always told me he assumed Kevin didnt like him because of the association he has with you. He was incorrect. He just doesnt like YOU.

 

[v10kingsnake]

WOW!!!! sounds like you "OWN" Proline your royalness

No, he owns a business. one that provides Proline with enough business to dictate that he get exclusivity of there jobs. I do it all the time in my trade. Have you not heard of this before. I find it extremely difficult you haven't. Kevin is an amazing person and great friend. I regret only Not sending him my vehicle much sooner. Did I mention it came home tonite? ALOT FASTER

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

UGR = god complex? naaaaahhh.

Other than BlownGTS's car where I publicly apologized where else do you have issue? I've told you numerous times AND sent you ALL of the unsolicited emails from the woman who brought out your record. What more evidence do you want than that?

You don't like Paolo. You don't like me. You don't like DIY folks. And you are playing god here.

Good for you! I hope it does you well.

And very nice of you to allow Plum to get his motor done at the same shop even though the snout snapped off the crank before it was under load. I know that wasn't your fault. Nor that of the builder. but maybe you could have saved him some trouble by enforcing your 'agreement' at an earlier time? no good deed goes unpunished I guess...

details.

You passed the dirt that was dug up by that woman through email. That makes you a party to the smear attempt. You snip and snipe routinely on Underground threads. I don't like you or your tactics and decided to not exclude you from my exclusive agreement, that's not playing god, that's business. You on the other hand act like a shrieking teenager rejected on a prom date. Your representations of my costs and profits are slanderous and you cannot prove them because they are far from what you depicted. I have even less respect for you after this latest tantrum than before, if that's possible.

 

[GTSjbud]

No, he owns a business. one that provides Proline with enough business to dictate that he get exclusivity of there jobs. I do it all the time in my trade. Have you not heard of this before. I find it extremely difficult you haven't. Kevin is an amazing person and great friend. I regret only Not sending him my vehicle much sooner. Did I mention it came home tonite? ALOT FASTER

I guess you misunderstood my post...I don't do business with people with HUGE EGO'S!

 

[v10kingsnake]

I guess you misunderstood my post...I don't do business with people with HUGE EGO'S!

How is it UGR has a huge ego? Other than the obvious of them having a 100% customer satisfaction rate or holding every viper record imaginable of course.

 

[Joseph Dell]

You passed the dirt that was dug up by that woman through email. That makes you a party to the smear attempt. You snip and snipe routinely on Underground threads. I don't like you or your tactics and decided to not exclude you from my exclusive agreement, that's not playing god, that's business. You on the other hand act like a shrieking teenager rejected on a prom date. Your representations of my costs and profits are slanderous and you cannot prove them because they are far from what you depicted. I have even less respect for you after this latest tantrum than before, if that's possible.

That's the thing about people in dirty business... they think that everyone is out to get them even when they aren't. paranoia, perhaps?

explain to me how i smeared you again? I don't follow. I forwarded you the emails yet never posted publicly about them. i didn't dig them up nor did i ask for them. i also didn't pass them around to a group.

I snip and snipe at physics and engineering. you want to be mad that i called you out on the blownGTS discussion you are welcome to. i apologized as I said I would. that car was a once-of-kind vehicle b/c every OTHER car in the world doesn't make 900+rwhp w/ stock heads. But maybe that was just the 1st... Josh can post his #'s and tell us about his stock-headed car and then you've got repeatability.

Up until today i was considering purchasing a UGR car. But now I'm absolutely certain that you'll never see the benefit of $1 of mine. If your sponsor name is on a tee-shirt I won't buy it!

Let's talk about respect: You could have left me alone as I have left you alone as of late. When we spoke on the phone months ago I told you I was done with public forums. Just as I've told your v10nutswinger to leave me alone, i was leaving you alone. But you had to go pull this power play just to make your point.

Well, you've made your point. And I hope it doesn't cost you too much revenue in business from people that know the truth about your business practices. It was worth it to you to prevent me from spending the $500 (or possibly less) with a local shop just because you could.

Either that or you really _are_ afraid of the little DIY folks...

doh!

 

[v10kingsnake]

That's the thing about people in dirty business... they think that everyone is out to get them even when they aren't. paranoia, perhaps?

explain to me how i smeared you again? I don't follow. I forwarded you the emails yet never posted publicly about them. i didn't dig them up nor did i ask for them. i also didn't pass them around to a group.

I snip and snipe at physics and engineering. you want to be mad that i called you out on the blownGTS discussion you are welcome to. i apologized as I said I would. that car was a once-of-kind vehicle b/c every OTHER car in the world doesn't make 900+rwhp w/ stock heads. But maybe that was just the 1st... Josh can post his #'s and tell us about his stock-headed car and then you've got repeatability.

Up until today i was considering purchasing a UGR car. But now I'm absolutely certain that you'll never see the benefit of $1 of mine. If your sponsor name is on a tee-shirt I won't buy it!

Let's talk about respect: You could have left me alone as I have left you alone as of late. When we spoke on the phone months ago I told you I was done with public forums. Just as I've told your v10nutswinger to leave me alone, i was leaving you alone. But you had to go pull this power play just to make your point.

Well, you've made your point. And I hope it doesn't cost you too much revenue in business from people that know the truth about your business practices. It was worth it to you to prevent me from spending the $500 (or possibly less) with a local shop just because you could.

Either that or you really _are_ afraid of the little DIY folks...

doh!

How soon we forget the checks we wrote for a dlm setup. signed, mr. clean hands with a FAST UGR CAR

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

It is very tough to do business with UGR when they won't return your emails and phone messages. I guess it for the better after reading this.

Thanks for posting your UGR experience JD and saving me some headaches.

Bud, I talked to you several times on the phone and tried to tell you I couldn't do what you wanted me to do without you sending me your car. You kept trying to get me to change my mind but I simply couldn't do what you wanted. I did stop responding to your requests because it was always the same and I have a lot of work to do. Nothing personal, don't go all Joe Dell on me now.

 

[v10kingsnake]

Joe, My car made a lot of power. I did however choose to go with a set of heads because my checkbook said I could.

 

[Shelby3]

Kevin I wouldn't let this crap bother you too much. The people who buy into the lies and decide to avoid your company are screwing themselves not you. Your long list of satisfied customers speaks much more credibly than those sniping from the outside.

 

[v10kingsnake]

That's the thing about people in dirty business... they think that everyone is out to get them even when they aren't. paranoia, perhaps?

explain to me how i smeared you again? I don't follow. I forwarded you the emails yet never posted publicly about them. i didn't dig them up nor did i ask for them. i also didn't pass them around to a group.

I snip and snipe at physics and engineering. you want to be mad that i called you out on the blownGTS discussion you are welcome to. i apologized as I said I would. that car was a once-of-kind vehicle b/c every OTHER car in the world doesn't make 900+rwhp w/ stock heads. But maybe that was just the 1st... Josh can post his #'s and tell us about his stock-headed car and then you've got repeatability.

Up until today i was considering purchasing a UGR car. But now I'm absolutely certain that you'll never see the benefit of $1 of mine. If your sponsor name is on a tee-shirt I won't buy it!

Let's talk about respect: You could have left me alone as I have left you alone as of late. When we spoke on the phone months ago I told you I was done with public forums. Just as I've told your v10nutswinger to leave me alone, i was leaving you alone. But you had to go pull this power play just to make your point.

Well, you've made your point. And I hope it doesn't cost you too much revenue in business from people that know the truth about your business practices. It was worth it to you to prevent me from spending the $500 (or possibly less) with a local shop just because you could.

Either that or you really _are_ afraid of the little DIY folks...

doh!

Joseph, I would love to know one person you know of that paid UGR for work done and was unhappy with the product/service they received. If you can't I assume you have no basis to the "dirty business" accusations either?

 

[v10kingsnake]

Kevin I wouldn't let this crap bother you too much. The people who buy into the lies and decide to avoid your company are screwing themselves not you. Your long list of satisfied customers speaks much more credibly than those sniping from the outside.

 

[UndergroundRacing.com]

That's the thing about people in dirty business... they think that everyone is out to get them even when they aren't. paranoia, perhaps?

explain to me how i smeared you again? I don't follow. I forwarded you the emails yet never posted publicly about them. i didn't dig them up nor did i ask for them. i also didn't pass them around to a group.

I snip and snipe at physics and engineering. you want to be mad that i called you out on the blownGTS discussion you are welcome to. i apologized as I said I would. that car was a once-of-kind vehicle b/c every OTHER car in the world doesn't make 900+rwhp w/ stock heads. But maybe that was just the 1st... Josh can post his #'s and tell us about his stock-headed car and then you've got repeatability.

Up until today i was considering purchasing a UGR car. But now I'm absolutely certain that you'll never see the benefit of $1 of mine. If your sponsor name is on a tee-shirt I won't buy it!

Let's talk about respect: You could have left me alone as I have left you alone as of late. When we spoke on the phone months ago I told you I was done with public forums. Just as I've told your v10nutswinger to leave me alone, i was leaving you alone. But you had to go pull this power play just to make your point.

Well, you've made your point. And I hope it doesn't cost you too much revenue in business from people that know the truth about your business practices. It was worth it to you to prevent me from spending the $500 (or possibly less) with a local shop just because you could.

Either that or you really _are_ afraid of the little DIY folks...

doh!

Here's my last response to you on this subject Joe. I am not one bit ashamed of not exempting you from my agreement with Pro-line, deal with it. You say you apologized about the Blown GTS criticism and then restate it again in this post. You did pass on the dirt and the number of people you passed it to is irrelevant. You passed it. You grossly distorted my costs and markup on engine builds in this thread and for that I have zero respect or regard for you. That's who I am and I'm not hiding from anything. Stop trying to drag Paolo into this, I have no issues with him as it stands today.

 

[K-80-123]

I am completely happy with my experience with Underground Racing....Kevin was good to me from start to finish....and this is my 2nd Twin Turbo I have done.....one from another tuner....that did go bad......it was a real pleasure to work with Kevin and his brother KC.....they did a great job on my car.....and not only did I get the TT set-up but I bought a car from him to do this install.


Also I have sold a car to Kevin it was E-63 Mercedes he was going to get for his wife and he gave me a very good price for it......all transactions with Kevin and UGR have been acceptable and I am and continue to be a happy customer.

 

[Boxer12]

I have no dog in this fight, but it sounds to me like you are claiming that UGR forced Pro Line to sign the agreement, and that this is not a fair business practice. Am I right? If that is your position, then I would report it to the state Attorney General consumer fraud division and see what they have to say about it. UGR can't argue with that, if it is all above board and fair, like they claim. Let a third party weigh in on the legality of it, and it won't cost anyone a cent to go there. Just my 2c.

 

[dave6666]

Worse, v10kingsnake (thanks Josh) provoked this by whining to Kevin that my engine was actually there. Stirring the *** as usual. Being a true ********, as usual.

wha wha wha.

Go figure.

 

[Shelby3]

I have no dog in this fight, but it sounds to me like you are claiming that UGR forced Pro Line to sign the agreement, and that this is not a fair business practice. Am I right? If that is your position, then I would report it to the state Attorney General consumer fraud division and see what they have to say about it. UGR can't argue with that, if it is all above board and fair, like they claim. Let a third party weigh in on the legality of it, and it won't cost anyone a cent to go there. Just my 2c.

I don't think even crazy Joe is trying to say UR forced Pro-line to do anything. UR and Pro-line entered into an exclusive relationship on Viper motors which is done all the time in business. Kevin views Joe as a hostile entity toward his business and declined to do Joe a favor. Joe in turn flipped out with this thread and accused Kevin of gouging his customers on the cost of engine builds without any proof which to me is just another in a long list of Joe's attempts to harm UR. I don't understand the logic of kicking someone in the nuts repeatedly and then whining when they decline to do you a favor.

 

[SUN RA KAT]

Wow...I just found this thread. I am not anybody's nutswinger, but I have a big yellow Underground Racing decal on my rear window because Underground Racing earned the right to get free advertisng on my Viper because of the tremendous job they did in inspecting and repairing my engine and electrical system.

For the Record ( http://forums.viperclub.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=2482277 ) documents how low some people will go and it figures in to this thread by someone trying to use Joseph Dell as a stooge to hurt Kevin of UGR.
Edit - link above doesn't work, but if you dare go to the Alley, then you can find it.

I would not hesitate to take my Viper back to Underground Racing.