Pre-Oiling and Accumulator system packages- FEEDBACK PLEASE

[Viper Specialty]

I am attempting to gauge the interested in the following:

I am considering producing a "package" accumulator/pre-oiling system. It would be a Built To Order system, and come assembled, with very simple directions on how to complete the installation. It will be made of of TOP NOTCH equipment, incorporate a piston-type accumulator-(The BEST), Electric valving, and a couple other optional enhancments. It would require only 10 or so bolts/screws to install, one hose, and one wiring connection to complete.

This system will take 10+ hours of guesswork, assembly, trial and error, and mess making, and make it a non-issue.

For those who are not familiar with accumulators and pre-oiling systems, it basically will do the following:

-pro-long engine life considerably

-eliminate oil starvation situations commonly encountered on Race Tracks of all types, as well as hard braking accelleration, and turning on the street.


Please let me know if you have ANY questions.

 

[jcaspar1]

I would definately be interested. Sean Roe apparently stopped selling his kit and there are a lot of issues in doing this yourself that it sounds like you have worked out.

 

[Viper Specialty]

JCASPAR- This kit could be available as soon as you would want it. (may take me a little extra time to do the instructions, but your option if you want to wait for them...)

 

[jrkermode]

I'm interested.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Feedback - It won't eliminate starvation, only give you a bigger cushion under circumstances where it may tend to happen. No argument that a few more seconds of oil pressure is valuable, but it's at a decreasing flow rate as the pressure drops. While it may reduce wear during incidents that otherwise would have experienced low oil pressure, claiming it prolongs engine life is a little too broad.

 

[Viper Specialty]

TOM- True, there is no way to ever completely eliminate it...I mean, no oiling system will oil a car thats upside down, or standing on its nose! lol. But, in the time it takes to make any of the maneuvers in racing, there will be ample oil available to cover the time it does suffer from pump starvation. It will have available 2 Qt, 3 Qt, and a custom FIVE QUART+ system available, depending on your needs. I dont think there are any turns out there long enough to induce a starvation situation, AND drain a 5-Qt system before you exit it and allow the pump to re-engauge. 5-Qt should be on-par with a Dry Sump systems' oiling capacities.

Also, used in combination with a Pan Baffle system, it should net incredible results on the race track.

(this is TRUE 5-Qt's, meaning it will maintain a minimum of ~20PSI throughout the course of emptying a full 5 Qt's of oil... not just a system run at lower pressure.)

Overkill is always a good thing

 

[Jack B]

Tom:

Please give me your reasons for your rather cold endorsement. It seems as though a device that totally lubes the engine prior to start (especially after long periods between starts) and maintains an average of 40 psi for at least thirty second (and maybe more) is a huge asset when related to engine life.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Yes, I would like to hear these reasons too.

First, there can be no argument that something that PRE-OILS an engine would increase engine life, it only makes sense. (This is what I was referring to with the pro-longed engine life statement)

Second, What would you rather have? a little bit of something? or a whole lot of nothing? That answer isnt hard to come up with. even the SMALLEST 1 Qt accumulators are better than nothing, and give a cushion for air in the system. When you get into the 3-5 range, the cushion is big enough that there is no racetrack where you would run out of cushion, so it becomes a moot point.

Third, my claim to prolonging engine life still applies. Even if it was a small 1 Qt unit that only protected you during 10% of starvation times, it would STILL pro-long engine life. When your talking about a 3+ Qt system than can handle full accumulatory duty, you have a VERY significant difference. Add on a set of pan baffles with a 3 Qt system, and I would be surprised if you ever managed to starve it. With a 5 Qt, you may find yourself in a record-book if you could pull that one off...

 

[carguy07]

Would this allow for an oil change without removing the oil plug? I thought I had seen that some of them would pump the old oil out to make for super easy oil changes.

And, yes I would be interested in a custom kit. Gen I though.

 

[Viper Specialty]

CARGUY- no, that is a feature found on pre-oiling pumps, not accumulator based pre-oilers. However, a Pump cannot ever function as anything other than a pre-oiler, and their complex designs often result in unwanted backflow (loss in oil pressure), frequent breakage, and once in a while, parts ending up in your engine, which you dont want there! Also, they circulate UNFILTERED oil. An accumulator only flows oil which has already been filtered.

These kits are currently set up for Gen-2. Not a big deal, but I would have to get ahold of a Gen-1 car for a day or so in order to make sure all the measurements still apply. Come spring time, you're more than welcome to be my "experiment", Especially if you have an EARLY gen-1. (the Torsion bars used in early gen-1's may pose a location problem. Nothing that cant be remedied with a little creativity!)

 

[ntmatter]

I'd be interested, possibly - it would depend on the cost of the kit, and the extent of work necessary for installation.

 

[1KoolAsp 14TA]

I installed the Master lube pre lube system. It holds one quart of oil. It is a marine style system. Everything is stainless steel. All the clamps, liquid filled gauge and lines. The tank is powder coated. The price for the system I paid for was $375.00. That was with all options. I purchased it directly from: www.MasterLube.net They built one quart systems, 2 quart and 3 quart systems for pre lube and accusump. The installation took me about 3 hours. That was taking my time. It was very simple and they also have a hot line for trouble shooting. I have pictures of it, but just don't know how to get them up on this website. Go to their website and you can see the system itself. If anyone knows how to get a picture up here, please let me know and I will post my pictures of the Masterlube installed on my car. You must remove windshield wiper container to make room for the tank. This was the best location. The tank must be as far close to vertical as possible. Within 20 degrees.

 

[Go Fast For Life]

I think there is a fair amount of interest here. How much would your system sell for?

 

[Jack B]

Opinions are wonderful here is another view. In my humble opinion, the bottle type accumulators like the Master Lube have some inherent draw backs.

The main problem is that it does not utilize a piston and relies only on an air charge in an open chamber, thus, the reason it has to be mounted vertically. Because of this design the air charge can be lost into the engine. The initial air charge also has to be less, thus, limiting the operating range. Typically the hose connections are usually minimal, our viper oil system needs a 10AN/1/2" npt bottle outlet to be effective. I not quite sure about current versions, however, I believe some of the early Master Lube units did not have a pressure relief valve.

That being said , all accumulators give some additional protection, the piston style just does it better. Once again that was only one man's opinion.

 

[ViperRay]

Daniel,
Can you post a schematic of sorts for this system so that those of us who are less familiar with a pre-oiling system can have a better understanding of it's operation? Thanks.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Viper Ray- Just ran accross these, they explain it very well!!!

http://www.accusump.com/acc_tech_diagrams.html

Yes, JackB hit the nail on the head with the Bottle type VS. the Piston Type.

 

[Viper Specialty]

GO FAST FOR LIFE- My system would use Accusump's components, as they are the best out there in this catagory. I will not increase pricing on parts, what you see on their website, is what I will charge on parts. I am "technically" just going to add on an assembly charge, and shipping costs. I am still trying to figure what would be a fair price for assembly, as there is a very large amount of work that goes into the completion of the unit. To make one from scratch and have it laid out on the floor in package form would take 5-10 hours minimum to assemble correctly, even after the design of the unit is perfected. everything has to be "custom", as the kit has to be adapted to the Viper. At this time, I am figuring about 250$+parts would cover it. Opinions?

PS- Keep in mind that these are BUILT TO ORDER, I cant have them just sitting on a shelf, as there are too many options. meaning, when you order one, I assemble it the way YOU want it, then ship it to you.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I am mainly hitting on the "prolongs engine life" issue. Let's take away the 5 second, 0.95 g's turn we all make on the way to work and recognize that lots of technology in engine oils overcomes lots of things that used to be problems. Most additives in engine oils compete for metal sites, so part of formulating is making sure there are not too many of one kind (say, friction modifier) and not enough of another kind (anti-wear additive) on the surface. What it points out is that without a full hydrodynamic oil film, there is still a significant amount of "chemical" protection. Engines have started up in cold temperatures successfully without wearing out because a) the additives were there even if the liquid oil was not and b) the oil pump is quick enough that before wear or damage occurs, the oil arrives. This will revive the synthetic vs. mineral oil debate, but for example, any oil with a 10W-xx viscosity grade is intended for cold starts down to -20C, which means that as thick and slow as the oil gets, the technical societies have deemed that it got to the last part of the engine (not the first part, where the oil pressure gauge sits) to safely protect the engine. Oil marketers have even gone to court to show that their oil arrives a little sooner and should be better, but it's never convincing because of all the work that the OEMs, oil, and additive companies have already done. So sorry, because the additives are always there and the multi-grade engine oils are pumped easily enough, the pre-lube concept doesn't create a significant improvement in my book.

I'll risk a little flak because now I am not 100% sure of the following comments, but they come to mind. My recollection is that even turbo bearings, which run at 20X an engine bearing, isn't pre-lubed by an OEM, and may be post-lubed only for cooling rather than lubrication. The other thing is that the oil pressure reading before cranking may be misleading. If the engine isn't running, you are not lubricating the rods, since the oil holes have to line up, no? And without any rotation, you're not slinging oil onto the cylinder walls.

Don't get me wrong, I had a big piston-style Accumsump on my kit Cobra (with Dodge 340), and wearing slicks in autocrosses at airports, I would cringe when the 40psi idiot light came on. Put on the Accumsump, and while it reduces the rate at which the oil pressure drops, the fact was that the oil pressure still drops from normal. It's doing the same thing as a water hammer in your house plumbing -damping the pressure changes, not sustaining an oil pressure level. Maybe that's a fair explanation - it's a "shock absorber" function, in that it resists or delays the action, but doesn't prevent it.

So does it prolong engine life because of what it does during high-g activity? If you are out there on slicks, going that fast without scrapers or baffles and pull in some air, then it will help prop up the oil pressure and you'll go in with 65 psi, come out of the turn with 55 psi instead of 45 psi (my Cobra experience.) OK, that's better. What I would really cheer about is a drop-in swinging oil pickup.

 

[Viper Specialty]

TOM- 80% of normal engine wear occurs at start-up, like it or not. Yes, some of the new additives HELP, but, they DO NOT cure the problem. The ONLY cure for the problem it to supply oil pressure BEFORE cranking the engine. There is a huge difference comparably between a dry-start, and starting an engine in which virtually everything is lubed, and all oil galleries are full. As far as your comment on the rods, yes, the wrist pin and cylinder sleeve will remain un-lubed no matter what you do...but in the same breath, it is lubed from swinging oil off the crank- WHICH WILL ALREADY BE FLOWING IF PRELUBED. Also, those two components are the the most resistant to low-oil situations, they really arent a worry anyway. The main bearings, rod bearings, valves, cam, and rollers are the BIGGEST concerns...all of which would get oiled.

You really cant compare Turbos to an engine, but I'll entertain you anyway- (but your in my backyard now, Turbo cars are my background!!! LOL) Yes, a Turbo can reach in excess of 100,000 RPM when spooled- BUT, there it not much lateral force exerted on Turbo bearings when they are not being oiled (engine off/idle), as they are Balanced assemblies, which only spin in a circular motion. An engine on the other hand, has reciprocating pistons, which put "hot spots" on bearings- this is what will cause a bearing to "spin". Two peices of metal with an insufficient oil film will "bond" together as the result of heat and pressure... there goes your bearing.

Lastly, yes-it is a shock absorber. BUT, you are forgetting something. An automotive oil pump CANNOT PUMP AIR with any effectiveness. the situations you saw were not just "lower pressure instances", but when you have an oil pump **** up air, it damn near hits ZERO PSI- though it would be hard to see this from almost any gauge. Not to mention...it airiates your oil, which in itself can cause just as much trouble. Yes, when the accusump is in use- the PRESSURE will drop off as it empties, but the FLOW is still there. But, guess what? you dont need NEAR the pressure you even making at idle in the first place. if you kept a solid 20 PSI of oil pressure without any flow interuptions, the engine would just do just fine. Thats a hell of a lot better than a spike down to ZERO!

Here is what I gather from your Cobra experience:

You had a slow-acting gauge, as almost any gauge is...even the Viper's. when taking that turn, you didnt REALLY have 45 PSI, what you had, was a surge situation between zero and 65 PSI, 45 PSI is just the median at which it sat. this means, you HAD oil pressure about 2/3 of the time, and DIDNT have it 1/3 of the time-(ABOUT). However, when you had the accusump installed, what you REALLY had was a true 55 PSI. yes, LOWER than 65, but it was a CONTINUOUS, and SLOWLY decreasing 55 PSI, not a jagged-graphed 45 PSI.

I am not telling you to buy one man, if you dont want to accept facts and experiences, thats fine, it doesnt bother me. Just ask yourself this: If Oil Films and additives are enough, why have SOOO many Vipers lost bearings on the race track from oil starvation? Also, if the technology doesnt work, why do SOOO many Track Vipers have an accumulators and/or Pan Baffles? Surely knowledgeable and experianced people wouldnt spend money on something that was proven not to work.

I started this thread in order to gauge feedback on a PACKAGE I was considering selling- not to argue with someone who doesnt want one anyway about why they dont want one. (dont take this the wrong way, I am not pissed, and I'm not trying to start **** with you)

No hard feelings though...


OK... way too much writing.

 

[ViperRay]

Daniel,
From Accusump's site it appears material costs would be a little more than $400 assuming a 3 qt. sump. Add $250 for your labor/package comes to $650, right?
Will the oil filter remain in the stock position?
What do you figure for labor time for the purchaser (assuming average mechanical abilities and no prior experience with this type of system)?
Finally, although the theory makes sense, how common has it been in practice for people who track their viper with the baffled pan/windage tray to suffer engine damage due to oil starvation? In other words, would this be adding a belt to suspenders or is there already some (at least anecdotal) evidence that this system would/has actually prevented engine failure? The baffled pan seems to have proven itself already which is why I installed it...has it fallen short in any circumstances? I would like to see this discussion go from the theoretical to the practical. I'm interested, but not in overkill.

 

[Viper Specialty]

ViperRay- Yes, 400$ in parts seems about right, maybe a little more if you start adding on options and such. Yes, oil filter stays in the stock location. If a lift was available for install, I would say 2 hours, max. There would be 11 total holes to drill and 10 total bolts/screws to install, and 1 wire to run. The sump is located completely out of sight, and protected.

Honestly, I am not aware of many engine failure instances in any form- But I consider myself uninformed on that topic anyway. However, I do know that every heavily tracked car I have ever seen did have an accusump/accumulator/dry sump system of some type on it. (VOI cars that went on to the track, local track events, etc)

Here is what I got off of this website though, after about 15 minutes of searching. These were all in regaurds to Sean Roe's (now discontinued) pre-oiler. Some of these guys had the pan baffles:

-Posted by 1 bad gts; Guys been there tried that Chris Barone car has everything listed above-(was referring to the "trap door oil pan")-including a HUGE OIL COOLER AND IF PUSHED ******* A FAST TRACK CAN drop a bearing AT ANY GIVEN NOTICE.


-Posted by Mike H; I am interested in this. As you know I blew out two main bearings racing at Pocono, where we run the high bank, and destroyed a new crate V-10 with just over 2k miles on it. I would be looking for "insurance" against possibly loss of oil pressure the next time. Engines are just too expensive.

-Posted by Jay Lopez; I'm interested as well. I've already got the deeper oil pan and baffles, and would like to see what you kit could do to round out the protection.

-Posted by Double Venom; From a guy that lost a motor during simple testing at TRC, thank you! We live, we learn, we fix!

You've got my number, give me a call when they are ready to go.
DV

-Posted by Mark Young; Count me in as well. Oil starvation is real in Vipers, and although I already have a fully baffled/deaper oil pan setup, the accumulator is the last piece to the puzzle.

Kudos on what sounds like another great product.

 

[jimandela]

Dan,
sounds good.
Once i am back into a snake I'll have one....
Best wishes
Jim

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Final,
My target for this educational missle is that engines do not wear under starting conditions enough to warrant pre-oiling. If that were true, then every flat tappet (which never gets pressurized lubrication) would have been gone a long time ago. If that were true, the low temperature pumping requirements for engine oils would not be what they are. It is not a "dry-start" since the additives are there for protection. There is no load on a cranking, 200 RPM engine, so we are (as someone termed) putting suspenders on your belt.

Bearing theory is such that any rotating shaft does not remain centered, it will climb against gravity in the direction of rotation. This pulls an oil film under it, compresses it, and heats it. This heat (in most engines) in the minimum oil film thickness location is due to engine speed and is what causes hot spots, not load on the piston.

An automotive oil pump is a positive displacement pump, so of course it can pump air. It can even build pressure. Yes, it will aerate an oil. It's just that air pressure won't support a bearing. When the accumsump supplements the oil gallery, the outlet pressure of the accumulator and the oil pump are about the same; otherwise the accusump would simply fill the oil pump. So while you're getting more oil into the engine, I'll argue it's still not air-free oil. There isn't a switching valve function that separates "good oil" from "aerated oil."

The Cobra had two 2 5/8 mechanical gauges, 3/16 nylon lines, one at the engine, the other at the accusump outlet. The accusump fed the 90 degree oil filter adapter with a 1" line. Both gauges went up and down together.

Again, my reason for all this is that if you need one for racing, you ought to be thinking of pans or baffles or swinging pickups and only go pressurized if rules prohibit dry sump or the budget doesn't allow anything else. But I still will argue that it does not measurably impact the engine life of a non-road race engine. It's not that I don't want one, I had one once. But the payback per investment is really low.

 

[Martin D]

Kind of a dumb question here..... I am increasing my rev limit to 6500 - 6800. Will this unit help with high RPM Starvation?????

Thanks for a reply!

Regards,

 

[GR8_ASP]

Dan, great response. I was getting ready to put my 2 cents in and then I saw your response to Tom's comments. I concur with one exception. That is with aerated oil. Aerated oil does not typically pose a problem with bearings and wear surfaces. It impacts hydraulic lash adjusters the most by allowing air to collect in the high pressure chambers. The resulting "soft" lash adjusters allow the valves to impact the valve seats at higher than normal closing velocity, valve bounce, and possible loss of valve control. It also results in the familiar valvetrain tick-tick noise. Aeration also appears as a pressure decrease in most cases. I use the term aeration when the percentage of air in the oil is in the 4-10% region and is relatively homogenous. Less than 4% and it typically does not pose a problem. Between 4 and 10% can adversely affect hydraulic lash adjusters and other hydraulic components (such as chain adjusters). More than 10% can pose a danger to bearings and the like and is probably no longer homogenous.

That aside your comments on the loss of oil pressure are spot on. Loss of oil pressure, even momentary, while under high loads may cause damage to the conn rod or main bearings. They need the hydrodynamic pressure to prevent metal to metal contact. Any metal to metal contact will cause localized heating and bearing failure in a very quick fashion.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Hmm, that I am actually not sure about. I dont know whether the engine has starvation problems at that RPM from:
-insufficient oil galleries
-a pump that cant keep up
-or the fact oil stays too high in the engine and doesnt get back to the pan in time

If its reason # 2 or 3, yes, it will help as long as the situation isnt sustained for a long peroid of time.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Just saw Tom's come back. Guess I Should't be watching a movie at the same time as I am responding.

Anyway, I am not sure I understand what you meant Tom in this comment:

"Bearing theory is such that any rotating shaft does not remain centered, it will climb against gravity in the direction of rotation. This pulls an oil film under it, compresses it, and heats it. This heat (in most engines) in the minimum oil film thickness location is due to engine speed and is what causes hot spots, not load on the piston."

As I understand it you have three significant input characteristics to a journal bearing. They are the forces (not just gravity but all forces), the surface velocity at the bearing surface and the feed oil pressure. The second is very dependent on the rotational speed as you indicated. Other factors such as diameter, bearing width, barrel or concavity of the surfaces and oil feed position are geometric and constant for a given engine. The connecting rod bearings have minimal impact due to gravity. As the piston has resistance to motion in both directions due to friction, receives a downward force due to combustion and an upward force due to inertia, gravity is almost a non-player. I have never noticed a difference in the wear pattern of a vertical cylinders bearing versus a V engines. The wear positions are relative to combustion and inertial positions.

That said I agree that at start up combustion and inertia forces are very low, thus the low rate of wear. However, even that low rate of wear does constitute a high percentage of the wear that occurs over the engines life. I have looked at dyno engines whos bearings looked almost like new after hundreds of hours at peak power and torque. I have also seen bearings from a relatively low mileage cars that had more wear.

Anyway this is an interesting thread. I will sit back and observe.

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

I cant believe I am about to back Daniel up, he usually drives me crazy, but his system works.

hmm.. how do I know ?? Been using it for over 8 months now. I wont argue the dynamics of oil pressure and bearing life (seems so obvious there should be NO debate), but I can tell you real world fact. I started up my motor for 4 months (from day new) without accumsump, and from the factory, those danm tappets loved to SING, until they got oil pressure. Now thats all gone, I prelube/pump up, and the car comes up nice and smooth and quiet every time. That ALONE mades it worth it !!

Jon

 

[Viper Specialty]

JON- I drive you crazy? AWESOME! Now I know I am doing something right!

 

[Ron]

Gut feel, logic and personal opinion versus years of education and experience in the industry. Hard to disagree with Tom's statements in my opinion.

That said, I too was interested in a pre-oiler a few years back, again from a gut feel perspective, but was concerned about the risks associated with the added plumbing, valves and cylinders. Felt the risk of pressure loss due to component failure greater than the perceived benefit of the pre-oiler function. Reading Tom's posts only solidifies that decision. Thank you Tom for taking the time to share your expertice and provide the feedback that Daniel asked for.

If minimizing engine wear is an obsession (and it is for me), lose the K&N air filters, get a used oil analysis done after every oil change, use high quality oil filters, etc.

On Daniel's side though, hat's off. The more people producing Viper stuff, the better. If I wanted a pre-oiler/accumulator, I seriously consider what he has to offer.