Problems with VEC3-no response to tuning

Joseph Dell

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the dyno graphs don't tell us whether the vec is doing anything. the vec card (aka: the program that is loaded) would be most helpful. and that is something that (if you have a card reader) should be easily emailed. if you can't do it, ask Sean to email it to you so you can share it OR ask him to send it to me directly. he has my contact info...

JD
 
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Flyntgr

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These two lines, red and blue, reflect the differences in the stock and performance cards, with the performance cards reflecting more h.p. and torque from the same runs posted above as #11 and #13, 11 being performance card and 13 being stock card. What do you make of these comparisons? I'm thoroughly confused! Thanks.
 
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Joseph Dell

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Congratulations!!! So what's the problem? The original issue was that you saw a 1hp change from one card to the other.

Sure, there is lots of work to be done on the dyno graph... but what you have is nothing to scoff at!

JD
 
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Bobpantax

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I agree with Joseph. The performance card worked. Is it that you could not read the graph or were you expecting even more HP/TQ from the performance card?
 

ViperTony

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Your performance card gave you 17 HP and 20 lbs of torque over your stock card. The performance program seems to be working. You may also want to run up to 5,500 RPM on the dyno. The graph seems to stop at 4750 RPM. Are these latest dyno numbers from a dyno other than Roe's? Are you confused because you're seeing different numbers than you saw on Sean's dyno?
 
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Flyntgr

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Tony, I'm not complaining, just not understanding. The earlier post with runs 10-13 were from a dynojet in LA. The last post comparing runs 11 and 13 were from the aforementioned runs, and the last GRAPHS of pulls #11 and 13 look different to this untrained eye. they are the same pulls in LA, not different pulls on different machines on different days. On the 4 pulls, #'s 10-13, the stock card seemed to be stronger with a better Air/Fuel ratio than the performance pulls (#'s 10 & 11). But on the last post of pull #11 (performance card) and #13 (stock card), the performance graph looks 17hp/20 ftlbs torque stronger. I don't understand why the same graphs, listed separately, appear to reflect different results. Thanks for your interest.
 

Jack B

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I'm happy to help if you can verify that the VEC3 is actually doing ANYTHING at all. and the best way to validate this is to have your tuner do a real-time data log. you can see RPM which is really what you want b/c i suspect that the vec isn't reading it therefore it isn't making any changes.

He could also be missing the MAP sensor input.
 

Jack B

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Tony, I'm not complaining, just not understanding. The earlier post with runs 10-13 were from a dynojet in LA. The last post comparing runs 11 and 13 were from the aforementioned runs, and the last GRAPHS of pulls #11 and 13 look different to this untrained eye. they are the same pulls in LA, not different pulls on different machines on different days. On the 4 pulls, #'s 10-13, the stock card seemed to be stronger with a better Air/Fuel ratio than the performance pulls (#'s 10 & 11). But on the last post of pull #11 (performance card) and #13 (stock card), the performance graph looks 17hp/20 ftlbs torque stronger. I don't understand why the same graphs, listed separately, appear to reflect different results. Thanks for your interest.

What may be confusing is the fact that some of your graphs are on a time base and some are on a rpm base. In addition, some of your max readings are showing the anomaly (spike) on the right side, not true peak readings.
 
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Flyntgr

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Thanks. I've also identified that the operator did not remove the floormat, which prevented WOT,and the tach artifact was unacceptable. The car was actually run from 1,500 to 5,900 rpms every time, though I'm not sure he calibrated the dynojet with my car's tachometer. If they were out of synch, this would've have also skewed the results. I'm planning on a trip to Georgia to check the tuning and do some more dyno runs. Thanks again.
 

Joseph Dell

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I had the pleasure of tuning on this car today. The car was a little more stubborn than some others but I got it tamed. For some details, see http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=604328 .

The VEC3 WAS installed properly. Data logging verified that the sensors were sensing. Gains from baseline were ~30 rwhp and 25 rwtq. But that was across the board and not just peak. Had some initial trouble maintaining a solid TACH signal (normal on these cars) but eventually found a wire which cooperated.

Joseph
 

Joseph Dell

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There is still something up with this car. it dyno tuned fine, but has an intermittent 'miss' or 'stumble' that we can't find. even with the VEC3 removed it has the stumble. Hopefully the owner can get dodge to hook up the DRB to it to find out what the issue may be... Very, very odd. even swapped stock PCMs and it still did it. replacing the plugs helped but we didn't replace the wires yet (except the one that had the boot stuck on the plug) . ;)

JD
 

X-Metal

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There is still something up with this car. it dyno tuned fine, but has an intermittent 'miss' or 'stumble' that we can't find. even with the VEC3 removed it has the stumble. Hopefully the owner can get dodge to hook up the DRB to it to find out what the issue may be... Very, very odd. even swapped stock PCMs and it still did it. replacing the plugs helped but we didn't replace the wires yet (except the one that had the boot stuck on the plug) . ;)

JD
JD, have you tried running the TPS ground wire straight to ground yet? had one do that to me, and that took care of it. the grounds are kind of goofy from car to car.
 
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Flyntgr

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I'm the lucky owner of the car Joseph tuned, and I want to tell you that this guy has persistence like R. E. Lee. He dynoed the car for 3 hours, and when it later (while my wife and I were returning to Dobbins AFB/NAS to our room, I called him and we met at 10 p.m. for a 7 hour session that lasted until daylight!!!! There's a problem with something in the VEC3, we believe, as we changed the CPM, changed spark plugs, removed one of the valve covers to check it out, and Joseph tried every trick in the book, and some outside the book, but the partial throttle stumble kept changing rpms, though it was mostly around 2000-2250 rpms. ON the way home, after 180 miles of cruising at 70-75mph in 5th gear, the engine light came on; I guessed, and a code light confirmed, it was the 02 sensors. They both indicated "bank 1 and 2 were too lean", though black soot blew out when I ran it up to 5,000 rpms to clean it out. I've ordered new hitemp wires from Adam Brennan and a new VEC3 from my vendor. I should have them by Thursday, and will take the car to my Vipertech for installation and further checking on their high $$ machines to locate the problem (s). But the highest h.p. was 491.1 and the highest torque dynoed was 523.5. With new spark plugs and wires, it could go up from there. I'll have it checked out locally when the stumble problem is fixed. Thanks for everyone's inputs.
 

ViperTony

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JD, have you tried running the TPS ground wire straight to ground yet? had one do that to me, and that took care of it. the grounds are kind of goofy from car to car.

Not sure if this is related but take a look at your TPS. I had a problem whereby my MAP sensor was showing a pressure drop during WOT and my RPMs would get flaky. I was advised to log the TPS voltage after all other diagnosis failed. I was able to tap into the TPS sensor and log the voltage through the Vec3 interface. As it turns out, the TPS was bad. The voltage jumped all over the place from time to time and at WOT the TPS was reading 50%. I ended up replacing the TPS sensor and all is well. There's a thread on this here in the tuning section. Hope this helps.

- Tony
 
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Flyntgr

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Problem solved: defective VEC3. My new one arrived today, and it works like a charm with the "stock" card in it. I had driven home more than 500 miles with the stock card in the old, defective unit. The check engine light coming on (not flashing on and off), spitting and sputtering at times, but we made it home with nervous stomachs. Now the VEC3 is running great, though not on the steroid card yet. The hi-po card has been re-tuned and I will try to install it tomorrow. Thanks Joseph Dell !
 
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Flyntgr

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Oops, I forgot to thank someone else. Thanks to Sean Roe for replacing the unit and for his support by talking me through the installation of the new hipo card. We are getting closer to running at partial throttle without stumble, but we have more tuning to achieve that. WOT is fine; just having trouble ramping up at partial throttle. Thanks again to Joseph for his persistence in getting her done.
 
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Flyntgr

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With malice to none, and thanks to all, I have given up on the VEC3. What should have been a good choice turned so sour that I'm just going to do a reflash of my stock computer. My motor is strong already, so it should do well with the reflash, without tuning necessary. Good luck to all with either choice. My experience with an apparently defective first unit, later exchanged by my vendor, should not be considered normal for the VEC3's, so don't let my rare experience change anyone's plans. Both of my tuners were super nice and supportive, and I believe they can be trusted. I should have my unit removed by Tuesday and my stock computer (an extra) sent to be reflashed. It's been a LOONNNGGGGG 4 months of effort.....
 

Nader

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What happened? the last comment from you was the new one was working well. After careful consideration, I went with a DC Performance reflash since it is plug and play. I have no knowledge of tuning a VEC and no one that close. while the VEC is great to continually adjust and tune the computer for mods, it just seemed like too much work for the inexperienced. I couldnt be happier with the DC tune. Runs perfect and lots of power.

Good luck.
 
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Flyntgr

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What happened? the last comment from you was the new one was working well. After careful consideration, I went with a DC Performance reflash since it is plug and play. I have no knowledge of tuning a VEC and no one that close. while the VEC is great to continually adjust and tune the computer for mods, it just seemed like too much work for the inexperienced. I couldnt be happier with the DC tune. Runs perfect and lots of power.

Good luck.
The second VEC3 ran as stock with the "stock card" inserted and read into the VEC3. But the performance cards, which are to ADD hp and torque, didn't do too well after I added new spark plug wires-which gave it all the voltage the cards had been tuned to. So, it was as I had predicited: more than ONE problem. First the VEC3 never gave us a chance. After the second VEC3, over $4k, and 4 months I've just about thrown in the towel. I tried the "medium" tune tonight-just as a lark-and found that although not perfect, was much better than the hipo card. If my GA tuner wants to mess with it some more, I'll let him do his thing. Otherwise, it's back to the vendor so I can get a refund and a REFLASH. I agree that the reflash is the way to go for me. No tuning, no big expense or thousands of miles to drive, motel bills to pay, or food to buy-not to mention tons of premium gas eaten by the gallon duing testing and tuning. You did what I wish I had done: reflash. I'm glad you chose correctly.
 

plumcrazy

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sounds like there might have been something different from the way the second one reads the cards...id give JD another shot at it if he has the time. id bet now its even better than before.
 
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Flyntgr

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Even though I had decided to turn it back in for a refund, I have given him the go-ahead to keep trying to get her right, but he may have personal business that would interfere with the time he might need to smooth out the cards. He gave me a "medium" card that is driveable, but not very good, and not even as good as the "bone stock" card. But he has the knowledge and skill to make it run perfectly with the now-functioning-as-intended VEC3. It's up to JD, though. He's certainly gone over and above the call of duty because of the defective unit and the wornout plug wires. Now that both are fixed, it is do-able if he has both the time and the inclination. I'm game if he is, but I don't want to ask too much of such a nice guy. Thanks for your reply.
 
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Flyntgr

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It's over. Joseph and I have both given up. He didn't call me today, so I can do no more without a tuner. He had sent me another tune yesterday, installed in a few minutes this morning, but it's about the same as the "medium" card, neither of which are as good as the "bone stock" card. I'm taking the VEC3 off the car tomorrow, and Sean Roe has promised a full refund. I'll get a reflash later after the cash flow catches up again. Now I have $5K in the attempt, with nothing to show for it. Even Joseph apparnetly gave up. I can't blame him, because he spent hour after hour working through the night, and even sending me two programs to Louisiana via email, to try. Sean also sent me an amedned Dell program. Nothing has worked. I won't LIVE to SEE it work. I've thrown in the towel. No MAS!
 

mike & juli

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Flyntgr--so sorry to hear about all this frustration you've been having, and having the very very best people working with you too. GOTTA be the worst. We share your frustration (we had problems with our VECII, but that due to wrong install by a friend, not a Viper Tech).....good luck with the reflash, hope that helps. ~juli~
 
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Flyntgr

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Thanks, Juli, you're a trueblue VCA member. I find that without the VEC3, but with Greens filters and full Bellanger exhausts it dynoed on the same dyno as before, now at 483.66 rwhp/508.59 rwt. No reflash yet. Maybe soon.....I'm looking forward to the skipshift elimination!
 

mike & juli

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Thanks, Juli, you're a trueblue VCA member. I find that without the VEC3, but with Greens filters and full Bellanger exhausts it dynoed on the same dyno as before, now at 483.66 rwhp/508.59 rwt. No reflash yet. Maybe soon.....I'm looking forward to the skipshift elimination!

I'm with Plum, also wish you could've gotten your car into Joseph Dell's to actually put on a dyno with his expert help. Thank you for the compliment, Flyntgr....just being supportive, as I KNOW how frustrating that can be, firsthand...! ~juli~
Good luck with the reflash and yeah, the skipshift can be eliminated!
 
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Flyntgr

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I first went to FL and dyno tuned. Getting only one h.p. over stock card, I then travelled to GA for 3 days and dyno tuned with Joe Dell. Problem was, the VEC3 unit J.D. tried to tune was defective and wouldn't run smoothly at partial or steady throttle. The most he could get was 490 rwhp, but the car wouldn't smooth out. By the time the vendor's replacement unit arrived, J.D. had been swamped with other priorities he couldn't juggle until the fall-a month or longer away. My car would run okay with the VEC3 running on the "bone stock" card, with all parameters "zeroed out", but now that the VEC3 has been entirely removed, the car actually makes more h.p. without it installed (admittedly only 4-5 h.p. more than with "bone stock" card installed in the Vec3 before its removal). My car without the VEC runs above 124 mph in the quarter in stock form, so I'm sure the rwh.p. dyno readings are accurate, if not pessimistic, even with SAE corrections. I also learned from Sean that I needed to remove the driver's side floormat to get WOT. So My best times and mph in the 1/4 mile weren't even at WOT, thought dyno tunes were in fact at WOT!!! Duh. I will run it in the 1/4 again to get a baseline before installing a reflash of my stock CPM. Thanks for your concern! These past 4 months have been H*** !
 
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Flyntgr

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My vendor was exceptionally fair and nice about the ordeal with the "bad" VEC3, and fully refunded my purchase price. After a DC reflash, the car dynoed 486rwhp/507 rwt. Before I returned the VEC3, Joseph Dell had previously gotten the VEC3 up to 490rwhp/525 rwt, but then the VEC3 imploded and wouldn't run right afterwards. I only "lost" 4hp and 18 rwt with the DC reflash, which eliminated the 1-4 skipshift and made the car rev nicely. I'd go with the handheld tuner from DCPerformance now that it's out. Bad news is: thru no fault of my own the car was totalled by a preceding vehicle throwing a 30lb steel plate at my windshield while on an overpass with siderails. The fourth fishtail caused the runcraps to break loose and sent me hard into the right siderail at close to 60mph, bending the fame an doing lots of damage. I've consoled myself by ordering a blue/white convert for '08. Ain't God good to His own? Good luck with your cars!
 
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Flyntgr

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Bill P. has my blue/white convert on order, and I have the serial number in hand. I'll fly in to Omaha with my bride of 41 years, spend the night at Woodhouse's generosity, and be picked up by Woodhouse's driver the following morning for the 30 mile ride to Blair, NE. Talk about a sleepless night ahead....Anticipation will keep me awake! I'll be like the little girl giggling in her pentafore (spelling?). I'm really pumped up about this one. I've owned all 3 gens, but this will be my first NEW one. Can't wait! I'll post my impressions about the new beast asap after the drive home.
 

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