So as I take apart my gen1 for the winter upgrades I notice some things that I never paid attention to B4... fasteners.... just wondering why it seems that most likely the cheapset ones available were used on a car that wasn't cheap? ie: intake manifold, exhaust manifolds- 5/16?? really ?? why so undersized?....and made from some inferior material as well??? I guess for that matter all the bolts used on the engine appear to be the same low quality.... I understand the need to save weight, is that the reason?? or was it the cost? maybe if they had used good bolts the headbolts would be a normal size??.... just wondering why? and really there are several things on this car that to put it bluntly are really cheap and low quality... and if your honest with yourself you know this to be true, at least with the gen1's cause thats what I have & know..... I love this car but just wonder why the quality was cheesed on when the sale price wasn't...... and for the ultra sensative, this is not in anway a put down of your car, I have on too, I figure someone might know the answer thats all. thx
quality of parts......anyone know why?????
- Thread starter s55c
- Start date
dave6666
Enthusiast
The fasteners are adequately sized. Your conception that they should be bigger is what is off. Also, calling them inferior material... I lol at the people that take off the alloy steel factory screws and put on stainless steel screws. Ever read the engineering specs on 18-8 ss versus grade 5 alloy? So yes, the factory screws on a factory engine are more than adequate. But not shiny enough, so why not downgrade with stainless? lol
PootyP
Viper Owner
Honestly it was a pretty informative and good answer, just done in a smart ass way!!!
Funny when not directed at me
Funny when not directed at me
kblake905
Viper Owner
With replies like that; good luck getting any more answers.....
dave6666
Enthusiast
I could have said, what idiot would look at their engine on their Viper and go wow, look at all those crappy bolts!
Sorry that people that have a lick of mechanical sense and aptitude offend you.
The reason that many of those fasteners appear small - like the intake and valve covers etc - is that the actual surface area being compressed combined with the sealing capability of the gasket, requires only a small screw to generate the needed gasket stress. It works, and does not need fixing. As engine builds increase hp and compression, that is why however that main and head bolts will often be upgraded. Sans my comment that factory screws are good for factory spec engines.
Sorry that people that have a lick of mechanical sense and aptitude offend you.
The reason that many of those fasteners appear small - like the intake and valve covers etc - is that the actual surface area being compressed combined with the sealing capability of the gasket, requires only a small screw to generate the needed gasket stress. It works, and does not need fixing. As engine builds increase hp and compression, that is why however that main and head bolts will often be upgraded. Sans my comment that factory screws are good for factory spec engines.
00VPRGTS
Enthusiast
There was nothing ******* about that answer. If you had simply asked why the fasteners "seem" so small and why they are not shiny you might have gotten a little more civil response but instead you stated that they WERE indeed undersized and constructed of low quality material without any knowledge of either. Sorry, I'm an engineer and get these kind of accusations all the time.
dave6666
Enthusiast
Yup. Me too. And I have no hard feelings being called a ******* by the OP. Actually kind of a compliment lol.
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
All production engines from the major manufacturers are well engineered. The hardware is spec's by engineering, and with feedback from production.
They are designed to work properly, not be overweight, and within cost constraints.
Over engineering is usually not well tolerated in the industry.
Ultra high grade fasteners, used in the racing industry, is not required by these relatively low stressed engines.
Gen 1 engines were fitted into Vipers that were sold new for under $60,000.
Gen 1 engines proved remarkably reliable and long lived.
They are designed to work properly, not be overweight, and within cost constraints.
Over engineering is usually not well tolerated in the industry.
Ultra high grade fasteners, used in the racing industry, is not required by these relatively low stressed engines.
Gen 1 engines were fitted into Vipers that were sold new for under $60,000.
Gen 1 engines proved remarkably reliable and long lived.
Paul, just curious, why is that? I tend to over build so I am curious about that statement.. Is it do to cost?
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
While there is always the desire to put in the highest grade components, regardless of costs, it is not necessary, and can result in the finished being priced out of the market.
A possible example is a tire valve stem cap. While a 1 cent plastic cap is good for a Camry, Dodge spec's a 5 cent plastic cap with a rubber O ring installed, because at the higher speeds a Viper is capable of, the valve stem can be compressed from centrifugal forces, letting air escape. The O ring contains this possible leak.
Individual owners may upgrade to a $1 metal cap for a more expensive look and the preception that it will do a better job, but in reality it just costs more, weighs more, and is not required to do the job.
Engineers are encouraged to also keep the weight down in the engines, and use the smallest, lightest weight fasteners that will do the job. Often using twice the weight bolt, will not give any more durability, but the extra weight component will result in poorer handling, slower braking, and slower accelleration.
I have friends that have upgraded their Jeeps with over 1,500 lbs in off roading equipment. They still brake, and generally perform poorly in anything than rock crawling conditions. (but the look really cool)
A possible example is a tire valve stem cap. While a 1 cent plastic cap is good for a Camry, Dodge spec's a 5 cent plastic cap with a rubber O ring installed, because at the higher speeds a Viper is capable of, the valve stem can be compressed from centrifugal forces, letting air escape. The O ring contains this possible leak.
Individual owners may upgrade to a $1 metal cap for a more expensive look and the preception that it will do a better job, but in reality it just costs more, weighs more, and is not required to do the job.
Engineers are encouraged to also keep the weight down in the engines, and use the smallest, lightest weight fasteners that will do the job. Often using twice the weight bolt, will not give any more durability, but the extra weight component will result in poorer handling, slower braking, and slower accelleration.
I have friends that have upgraded their Jeeps with over 1,500 lbs in off roading equipment. They still brake, and generally perform poorly in anything than rock crawling conditions. (but the look really cool)
mad0953
Enthusiast
Dave knows his nuts (and bolts). Although he comes across a little rough trust him on this one.
dave6666
Enthusiast
I don't know a gentle way to say *** in car speak. Or at Sunday dinner either, discussing the neighbors new solar powered mower.
But, back to the real technical discussion, a dilemma of the small fastener versus advanced gasket design versus low gasket stress is, that over time, you'll need to retorque the valve covers and intake screws. Every few years, or at least once some time. Anybody who has a Gen 1 or 2 car and has never done that probably should. You'll be surprised for one how little 95 in/lbs is, and two, how many are loose.
To add to the thought train, you cannot go any larger with the lower intake bolts, the existing bolt size barely allows the socket between the intake runners.
dave6666
Enthusiast
You need to get a little tougher skin!Or switch to a Corvette.
I'm teasing you.
Stop harassing the men that are chatting cars TFox.
AZTVR
Enthusiast
Not a ******** answer; a smart ass answer ! Very restrained in the world of car forums.
I also wondered how you deduced that the bolts were made of an inferior quality material ? I know that at my company, we have some pretty expensive analysis tools to determine material composition for failure analysis purposes.
Of course, if your background and education is in the field of mechanical engineering, then, I can understand your reaction.
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
Many automotive fittings are designed to stretch to fit. When you torque them to their proper specs, they actually stretch a bit which puts them under tension and makes them stronger.
This is also why it is often a good idea to use fresh bolts that have not already been stretched on initial installation.
This is also why it is often a good idea to use fresh bolts that have not already been stretched on initial installation.
dave6666
Enthusiast
Good point. But I doubt the visible ones like the valve covers and intake on a Gen 2 get stretched much at 95 in lbs. For sure things internal like rods and mains and flywheel etc. I know when I do the clutch I put new PP screws in. Same when I did my Fidanza.
Every nut, bolt, washer, loctite, etc, is engineered and installed that way for a reason. It may not always make the most sense to us but it is always a compromise. Like they say in the industry: Fast, Good, Cheap, pick two.
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
By comparison, Rolls Royce (before BMW) tended to "stitch" their engines together. They used lots of bolts and nuts and torqued them down much less. Felt that this would give better sealing and less warpage. Part of this is that they did not have modern gasket technology that would fill the gaps.
Many engine assembles were put together with either very thin or no gaskets at all. They relied on precision machining of the metal surfaces to provide fluid tight surface matings.
They still tended to leak all over your garage floors. (Kind of like Harleys and British bikes).
Many engine assembles were put together with either very thin or no gaskets at all. They relied on precision machining of the metal surfaces to provide fluid tight surface matings.
They still tended to leak all over your garage floors. (Kind of like Harleys and British bikes).
