Phun70
VCA Venom Member
Sounds great! any exhaust smell??? Did you loose any power?? and last but not least--o2 sims or plug anti fouler trick??
Random Tech cat Failure
- Thread starter MTGTS
- Start date
Sounds great! any exhaust smell??? Did you loose any power?? and last but not least--o2 sims or plug anti fouler trick??
Geez, I thot we agreed to bury the hatchet on that ? ! I was DEEPLY involved in that 5/2007 situation, and DM, out of respect for you, I will only say that the refund/offer we made jointly was extremely fast and responsive, service oriented, and very fair. And that with thousands of RT cats in Vipers, some owners dont want to admit they really are RUNNING TOO RICH.
Change Your Plugs and Oxy Sensors people! CATS DO NOT FOUL THEMSELVES.
Remember this "Exhast Vomit" thread? Originally stated as a defect, but then was discovered many years and miles older than assumed, and had been wrecked!
http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/639467-exhaust-vomit.html
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Here is what RT said, Verbatim. I was copied becasue the OP stated they may have been bought here, looking for records...Indeed thy were, July 2006, to original owner:
From: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 2:39 PM
To: MT
Subject: Re: Cat failure
[SIZE=+1]It's difficult to determine what you're showing in the photo because it's small and doesn't have a lot of detail. However, if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing, that type of failure is a result of overheating caused by an excess amount of fuel in the exhaust system. This type of failure is most commonly caused by leaking injectors, a failed oxygen or inlet air temp sensor or any type of ignition problem that causes a misfire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]If we have a warranty registration card on file, our converters are covered by a 5-year 50,000-mile warranty. I don't have a card in your name, and judging by the photo, the converter wouldn't qualify for warranty replacement. I can give you a more accurate evaluation with a better photo. Replacement converters are available at a discount to customers who experience a failure for causes not covered by our warranty.[/SIZE]
PartsRack then asked a second manager at RT to review, and he stated:
[SIZE=+1]Those photos show a REALLY bad situation. Something allowed a lot of fuel to enter the exhaust system. That's the only way to get the converters hot enough to sustain the damage shown.[/SIZE]
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A number of issues are raised in the original post and the replies that I'd like to address.
The photos supplied by MTGTS of failed converters that are allegedly Random Tech cats are useless. They are very small and show little detail. Regardless of the manufacturer, if you assume the photos are showing the end of a converter, it's clear that they have been severely overheated. That's a very common cause of converter failures.
A bit of background-- A converter doesn't DO anything. It causes a reaction to occur and the intensity of that reaction is strictly a function of the chemical energy exposed to the catalyst. Catalysts are designed to operate in an environment that will contain the byproducts of combustion-- carbon monoxide, (CO)partially burned hydrocarbons (HC)and oxides of nitrogen NOx). Since these compounds are the remnants of fuel ignited in the combustion chambers, they contain relatively little energy. The reaction that converts them to carbon dioxide and water vapor generates heat, but the actual temperature is a function of the energy in the compounds being catalyzed.
Conversion of CO, HC and NOx to CO2 and water vapor typically generates temperatures in the 1,000 to 1,200 (F) range. It doesn't matter how much of these compounds enter a converter, they only contain enough energy to support temperatures in the 1,000 to 1,200 range. On the other hand, catalytic reactions involving unburned fuel will generate temperatures in excess of 2,000 degrees. That's what causes converter damage.
Converters that fail as a result of an engine problem are not covered by warranty, just as engine failure caused by metallic objects that entered through the intake manifold wouldn't be covered.
Parts Rack sells a lot of our converters and we have relatively few failures. I know Jon B can be difficult to deal with on occasion, but from what I've seen, it's difficult to beat his after-sale customer service. On the relatively few occasions that one of his customers has had a converter problem or question, he is on the phone to us trying to figure out the cause of the problem and how it can be most easily fixed.
In this case, we have no evidence that the converters in question were produced by Random Tech. Secondly, regardless of the manufacturer, the failure was caused by an engine problem. As Jon B has mentioned, if a Random Tech converter fails for reasons not covered under warranty, we offer replacements at a significant discount.
We do everything possible to help our customers, and we don't have a problem handling any warranty claim that's legitimate. However, I find it difficult to deal with people like MTGTS who has gone on to bad-mouth our company and when the sum total of his contact with us was two e-mails. He never took the time to call, never documented that he had our converters and never bothered to send usable photos. We always give our customers the benefit of the doubt, but it's difficult to offer that benefit when there's no doubt as to the cause of a problem, or no opportunity to evaluate the problem.
The photos supplied by MTGTS of failed converters that are allegedly Random Tech cats are useless. They are very small and show little detail. Regardless of the manufacturer, if you assume the photos are showing the end of a converter, it's clear that they have been severely overheated. That's a very common cause of converter failures.
A bit of background-- A converter doesn't DO anything. It causes a reaction to occur and the intensity of that reaction is strictly a function of the chemical energy exposed to the catalyst. Catalysts are designed to operate in an environment that will contain the byproducts of combustion-- carbon monoxide, (CO)partially burned hydrocarbons (HC)and oxides of nitrogen NOx). Since these compounds are the remnants of fuel ignited in the combustion chambers, they contain relatively little energy. The reaction that converts them to carbon dioxide and water vapor generates heat, but the actual temperature is a function of the energy in the compounds being catalyzed.
Conversion of CO, HC and NOx to CO2 and water vapor typically generates temperatures in the 1,000 to 1,200 (F) range. It doesn't matter how much of these compounds enter a converter, they only contain enough energy to support temperatures in the 1,000 to 1,200 range. On the other hand, catalytic reactions involving unburned fuel will generate temperatures in excess of 2,000 degrees. That's what causes converter damage.
Converters that fail as a result of an engine problem are not covered by warranty, just as engine failure caused by metallic objects that entered through the intake manifold wouldn't be covered.
Parts Rack sells a lot of our converters and we have relatively few failures. I know Jon B can be difficult to deal with on occasion, but from what I've seen, it's difficult to beat his after-sale customer service. On the relatively few occasions that one of his customers has had a converter problem or question, he is on the phone to us trying to figure out the cause of the problem and how it can be most easily fixed.
In this case, we have no evidence that the converters in question were produced by Random Tech. Secondly, regardless of the manufacturer, the failure was caused by an engine problem. As Jon B has mentioned, if a Random Tech converter fails for reasons not covered under warranty, we offer replacements at a significant discount.
We do everything possible to help our customers, and we don't have a problem handling any warranty claim that's legitimate. However, I find it difficult to deal with people like MTGTS who has gone on to bad-mouth our company and when the sum total of his contact with us was two e-mails. He never took the time to call, never documented that he had our converters and never bothered to send usable photos. We always give our customers the benefit of the doubt, but it's difficult to offer that benefit when there's no doubt as to the cause of a problem, or no opportunity to evaluate the problem.
MTGTS
Enthusiast
Thanks for the phone call JonB, much better customer service than RT.
We did establish over the phone that the cats were RT high flow metallic substrate cats and they are 4 years old. I was offered another set @ a discount but as you can see from the earlier pics in the thread I have chosen another route. I will be having my 02 sensors checked out soon as they are the only thing I can think of that would have caused this.
We did establish over the phone that the cats were RT high flow metallic substrate cats and they are 4 years old. I was offered another set @ a discount but as you can see from the earlier pics in the thread I have chosen another route. I will be having my 02 sensors checked out soon as they are the only thing I can think of that would have caused this.
MTGTS
Enthusiast
You really should have waited to hear back from Jon cause you are kinda ******* me off. You are lucky to have a Jon as your vendor or else this would would get real ugly real quick.
THEY ARE RT CATS (call Jon and ask)
I started the thread to see if this had happened to anyone else, turns out it has. (some have been for legit reasons as Jon explained to me)
My two email contained 3 pics. 1 iphone pic and 2 pics with a hi res. digital cam after you said you couldn't tell from the first one.
Your 2 repsonses to my emails were basically "there's something really wrong with your engine, no way the cats failed" This is when I started calling your products ****ty.
Please stop saying there is something wrong with my engine. I can take my car into the dealership if you like and let them go through it. If they find something wrong, I'll pay for the diagnostics, if there's nothing wrong with the car, you pay. Wanna take me up on that??
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Like I said, they are proud of their product, and protective of their reputation. We all wish the "RANDOM TECH CAT FAILURE" thread title have been worded differently...
We did moments ago confirm to RT the original sale to the prior owner, 7/2006. We all know the cats did not foul themselves. Do Look for the real source of any current fouling? We know your car is running fine now, but who knows when the damage was done !? If the prior owner has SIMS in there, real problems will NOT throw a code.
I apologize for the stern reply from RT... Friday afternoons in GA are hot and humid!
We did moments ago confirm to RT the original sale to the prior owner, 7/2006. We all know the cats did not foul themselves. Do Look for the real source of any current fouling? We know your car is running fine now, but who knows when the damage was done !? If the prior owner has SIMS in there, real problems will NOT throw a code.
I apologize for the stern reply from RT... Friday afternoons in GA are hot and humid!
AZTVR
Enthusiast
I read the email from RT in post 33 above. It appears to be a very professional response. I'm not sure what the OP thinks was the defect in the product that caused the results that he shows. Just because a part fails doesn't mean the part was defective.
An example is, when a spark plug starts misfiring and you pull it and find that the ground electrode is melted, one doesn't just assume that the spark plug was the cause of the failure. One starts to look at what the engine might be doing to have caused the damaged spark plug.
Funny, I've been reading another thread where the OP is getting recommendations to get his car checked out based on the described symptoms, and people are getting "upset" because he seems to be ignoring the probable root cause. In this thread, there are professionals suggesting what the probable root cause is; but others just say, "ignore it and just put straight pipes in," and all is well.
Very interesting.
An example is, when a spark plug starts misfiring and you pull it and find that the ground electrode is melted, one doesn't just assume that the spark plug was the cause of the failure. One starts to look at what the engine might be doing to have caused the damaged spark plug.
Funny, I've been reading another thread where the OP is getting recommendations to get his car checked out based on the described symptoms, and people are getting "upset" because he seems to be ignoring the probable root cause. In this thread, there are professionals suggesting what the probable root cause is; but others just say, "ignore it and just put straight pipes in," and all is well.
Very interesting.
As I understand it, you're upset because I questioned that you had Random Tech cats, and I should have known it based on the photos you supplied. Those photos are included here-- cat1 being the original and cat2 and cat3 being the "high res" photos. And I'm supposed to see from these photos that the converters are RTs?
Had I received the response that you did, I would have called the company to discuss the situation and to see what I could learn. If I did have a problem with my car, I'd want all the information I could get so I could evaluate it properly. You apparently don't want to even consider the fact that there is or ever was an engine problem and when you didn't receive the response you wanted, you blew the whole thing off and started posting on the forum.
As for taking your car to the dealership, checking it now won't tell much about previous problems.
My apologies if my reply was too stern, but I tend to get that way when our products are attacked-- especially when we've had experience with people bad-mouthing converters that weren't ours. We've even had converters sent to us for warranty that weren't ours, and have had warranty claims for converters that had failed because they were physically damaged (large dent in the case). I'm not saying that you did any of this, only that we've had that experience in the past.
We literally have thousands of converter in service, happily converting away with no problems. I don't mean to imply that we never have a failure with our converters, but problems caused by defects in materials or manufacturing operations are easy to identify and don't include a complete melting of the substrate. I know that's not what you want to hear, but I don't know of any way for a converter to fail as yours have besides overheating caused by raw hydrocarbons in the exhaust stream.
Had I received the response that you did, I would have called the company to discuss the situation and to see what I could learn. If I did have a problem with my car, I'd want all the information I could get so I could evaluate it properly. You apparently don't want to even consider the fact that there is or ever was an engine problem and when you didn't receive the response you wanted, you blew the whole thing off and started posting on the forum.
As for taking your car to the dealership, checking it now won't tell much about previous problems.
My apologies if my reply was too stern, but I tend to get that way when our products are attacked-- especially when we've had experience with people bad-mouthing converters that weren't ours. We've even had converters sent to us for warranty that weren't ours, and have had warranty claims for converters that had failed because they were physically damaged (large dent in the case). I'm not saying that you did any of this, only that we've had that experience in the past.
We literally have thousands of converter in service, happily converting away with no problems. I don't mean to imply that we never have a failure with our converters, but problems caused by defects in materials or manufacturing operations are easy to identify and don't include a complete melting of the substrate. I know that's not what you want to hear, but I don't know of any way for a converter to fail as yours have besides overheating caused by raw hydrocarbons in the exhaust stream.
Attachments
MTGTS
Enthusiast
JonB said that he thought they were from the pics and he saw the same ones you saw. I guess he know your product better than you do. I'm sorry the pics got resized over email as I was sending you much bigger/better pics the 2nd time around.
My name and phone # was on the first email I sent. I honestly didn't call cause I've been through this before with you guys and wasn't gonna waste my time again. Since this was a sepertae issue I tried keeping that story out of this thread. I had a set of your cats on my 350z and they lasted 6 DAYS. I called that time and got the same response. This was prob 5 years ago.
Now you need to learn how to read time stamps. I started this thread on 10/9 @ 11:30am to ask and see if this had happened to anyone else. After some other people responded that they had I decided to send an email directly to you guys 2 DAYS LATER on 11/11 to see if you guys new of an issue with your cats and Vipers. NOT after I recieved your repsonses. Please go back and read the first post.
I'm taking my car in for an oil change next week and I'm gonna have them check everything out. The car still has the Chrysler Maxcare warranty on it so it's been mantained by ME and the dealership very regularly. This was the case with the prior owners as well, both VCA members. I pics of the car being built @ CAAP, that's how extensive this books/records are.
AZTVR
Enthusiast
So, MTGTS, from a technical and engineering standpoint, do you think that RT's conclusion of what caused the failure shown in the photos that they received from you is baseless? Do you believe that they are hiding what the true cause of the failure is?
In my opinion, this is simply a common misunderstanding due to the means of communication. Email is next to the worst way to communicate something like this (texting is #1).
If you had called them, there probably would be no issue here. I don't see that it is the responsibility for them to call all emailers back, especially when they don't even know that their product is involved.
Yes, I agree that it would have been a great idea for them to call you as far as customer service perception goes.
I am an impartial observer here, and I see nothing unprofessional about their response and no evidence that their product is at fault. I don't see anything that indicates that they treated your complaint poorly, either. Just not to your idea of what you expect a parts manufacturer should do for the second owner of what might be their product when there is a perception of a possible manufacturing defect that manifested itself 4 years after manufacture.
In my opinion, this is simply a common misunderstanding due to the means of communication. Email is next to the worst way to communicate something like this (texting is #1).
If you had called them, there probably would be no issue here. I don't see that it is the responsibility for them to call all emailers back, especially when they don't even know that their product is involved.
Yes, I agree that it would have been a great idea for them to call you as far as customer service perception goes.
I am an impartial observer here, and I see nothing unprofessional about their response and no evidence that their product is at fault. I don't see anything that indicates that they treated your complaint poorly, either. Just not to your idea of what you expect a parts manufacturer should do for the second owner of what might be their product when there is a perception of a possible manufacturing defect that manifested itself 4 years after manufacture.
MTGTS
Enthusiast
I don't BELIEVE they are hiding anything and I never said they were. I believe they know as much I do in this paticular situation which is nothing. Everyone can do a lot of guessing and when you sell a product which in their own words "DO nothing" how can it fail?
I can agree with you on the email part but as I said in my previoius post I tried calling last time and basically got the same response I did via email this time. Since I was also adding pics I figured email would be the best choice this time.
As I've also said in previous posts I didn't create the thread to bash the company. If you read my first post the main objective was to see if this has happened to anyone else and what were their outcomes.
There was no reason for them to come onto this site and start bashing me and calling me a liar when they called JonB and asked him to follow up with me which he did. After talking with Jon for awhile I was fine and was done with the situation. If they were gonna do that they should have @ least waited till Jon got back in touch with them.
Here's my problem with the whole deal. They said a "REALLY bad situation" is going on with my engine. There isn't and never has been. I know and drive my car very well and know when something is wrong which is what led me to this discovery in the first place. Car has never misfired since I've owned it and the plugs are less than a year old. An 02 sensor COULD be the problem and I will have them looked @ soon. I don't believe though when you tell someone they have a "REALLY bad situation" going on with the engine you are talking about an 02 sensor.
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EllowViper
Enthusiast
I don't get it. How come its always a RT cat that folks are posting about? I never hear anything about any other cats on these forums? Just curious...OK maybe a OEM one everysooften that gets clogged. So what are others using out there? I had no issue with my $50.00 THunderbolts and I know I have respnded to many *** regarding them. I know the Vette Shop in Tampa uses the cheepos. Just asking.
AZTVR
Enthusiast
I guess what you are asking is,
What's the percentage of use of RandomTechs versus other products and how does that compare with the number of issues encountered and reported ?
Again, in this specific case, I believe the manufacturer's explanation follows a logical engineering thought process and conclusion.
I revert to my analogy of a spark plug. No one concludes that the probable cause of a burnt, melted spark plug electrode is due to a spark plug defect.
Is it the responsibility of the manufacturer to prove that his part is not defective when there is a failure 4 years after installation, especially when that failure looks like one that happens when unburnt fuel is introduced into a catalytic converter ?
EllowViper
Enthusiast
Yes. Very logical from an engineering perspective and I don't argue this their statements. Their thought process is that unless there is a manufacturing defect, their cats will never go bad. The only thing that can cause a failure is an engine problem. I'd like to hit the "I believe" button, but I'm a bit more sceptical than that on aftermarket products. It may be true and I'm more than willing to get owned on this since OEM convertors last well over 100k miles as designed...but until we get comparative failure data from other manufacturers that have "like" products on a Viper (or other performance vehicles for that matter), I just have a hard time believing it from them personally. If they were an OEM supplier I might think otherwise...but they are not for all I know.
The reason I asked about the dyno is to rule out the possiblity that your AFR may be skewed to the point where the cats could become affected. As for sensor codes, I just replaced my 2 year old quick fire sensors from DC Performance. No codes but when I checked their output voltage they were constantly outputting voltage that indicated a lean condition causing the Viper to run richer than it needed to be which made for a fun day of tuning. Great example where no codes were being thrown but the sensors were *****. But my RT cats are fine and I've had this condition for 2 years.
IEATVETS
Enthusiast
All is good Jon, I have NO ill regards towards you at all. This thread just touched a nerve with me and all these old memories surfaced and I just had to say something as I am one to say whats on my mind.
If RT's customer support was a little, well OK a lot better, maybe this thread would have never been started but since it has, it is good this is being brought up. Somebody brought up a good point. Why is it that you only hear of this with RT's cats and nobody else's cats going bad? Some say to change the plugs and the O2 sensors. People shouldn't have to do that in order for their car to run properly after buying what "should be" a plug-and-play item.
I am done with this thread, I'm out!
BTW, I did change my plugs and O2 sensors when I put my RT system on. I also changed the oil and radiator fluid at the same time.
seems there is very little margin for error with the RT cats.
there is a LOT more OEM cats out there running and im sure some of them run lean, why dont we ever hear of them going bad ? (we have heard it but not often like RT)
there is a LOT more OEM cats out there running and im sure some of them run lean, why dont we ever hear of them going bad ? (we have heard it but not often like RT)
speedracervr4
Enthusiast
Great point!! Just replaced my o2 sensors because it was dumping fuel due to a lean issue. Did get a CEL (too lean code), but I think it had been progressively getting worse over time. I'm sure the excess fuel would screw up the cats pretty soon.
Quite the contrary...due to the extra substrate 'wash' RT uses, they have a broad operating range. If an OE cat goes bad in 5 years, it is under warrantee. After that, I do hear occasionally / monthly from owners or shops who must change failed OE cats, and want options. As the Viper Fleet ages, we are seeing more and more OE cat failures. Miles-age related.
A rich-running car is more likely to foul and then overheat its cats
Noteworthy: Guys who mod their cars are more likely to cause, or notice an issue. Stock Vipers dont usually foul cats except for aged plug/wire/sensor issues.
Thanks Guys....
