Random Tech GTS Muffler Delete

[Bravo]

I'm thinking about getting one. Prefer perfect used, otherwise I'll check with JonB...but not on Mondays.

 

[Ricketts]

Great product! I installed one awhile back on a buddies 96 GTS, went on with a breeze

 

[plumcrazy]

ive had one for about 5-6 years now and love it. call jonB

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Any good muffler shop can do this with two 18" pieces of pipe and 1/2 hour labor. I had him put the stock tips back on. Paid $30 bucks total in 2000 for the muffler delete at my local shop.

Steve

 

[plumcrazy]

doubt it was stainless for that price though....

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

doubt it was stainless for that price though....

No, it was aluminized tubing, just like my entire exhaust has now been for the last 73,000 miles. Except for new mufflers, my system has never been touched since install in 4/01. I am well aware that SS exhausts are touted as the best, but I know of cases where under high heat (and warranty) it can get brittle and break, due to the extra heat build up in the SS pipe. On a Viper, which typically sees zero salty conditions, there's really no good reason to worry about longevity for aluminized tubing.....especially two 18" pieces. The rear muffler delete is a great way to improve the stock sound very cheaply if you go to your local shop.

That being said, I just called my shop. He said 2.5" T304 SS runs about $7 per foot. That's $21 dollars in pipe. He told me $45 out the door.

I've spent big dollars on our car over the years and paid plenty of Viper tax along the way, but for a rear muffler delete, there is no added benefit to spending a bunch of money for something so simple to do.

Steve

 

[dave6666]

I've spent big dollars on our car over the years and paid plenty of Viper tax along the way, but for a rear muffler delete, there is no added benefit to spending a bunch of money for something so simple to do.

Steve

I'm with you all the way on that Steve. But just out of curiosity, what does the big box kit cost in comparison?

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

A quick check looks to be $550 or so plus shipping

Steve

 

[Glen97]

I put one on my 96 RT/10 and also have one on my 97 GTS. Easy install nice sound and the 4 inch tips look killer.

Glen

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

I put one on my 96 RT/10 and also have one on my 97 GTS. Easy install nice sound and the 4 inch tips look killer.

Glen

If the price I found above is about right........those tips outta be killer at about $250 each

Steve

 

[dave6666]

If the price I found above is about right........those tips outta be killer at about $250 each

Steve

 

[Glen97]

If the price I found above is about right........those tips outta be killer at about $250 each

Steve

They do look killer! A much better look than stock. Your also getting 3 inch SS with the X pipe. So its more than just a muffler delete.

Glen

 

[dave6666]

So its more than just a muffler delete.

Glen

Any dyno numbers floating around?

 

[Glen97]

Any dyno numbers floating around?

I dont know of any. I just like the look and the sound.

Glen

 

[Bravo]

They do look killer! A much better look than stock. Your also getting 3 inch SS with the X pipe. So its more than just a muffler delete.

Glen

Hi Glen:
Any pics? All I can find are poor thumbnail type pics at odd angles.
Thanks.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

They do look killer! A much better look than stock. Your also getting 3 inch SS with the X pipe. So its more than just a muffler delete.

Glen

Ok. So now you've 3” choked down to 2.5” from the end of this assembly forward. What’s the purpose of that? Can’t see it from the street. Power gain? I doubt it. 4” tips…. 4” tips could easily be put on the stock 2.5” pipe. X pipe…no power adder here. I’ve always been told that Xs and Hs are effective for a slight power gain in systems of unequal length --sideways motors for example. They then have to be placed as close to the unequal portion as possible. Ie. back at the engine or wherever the pipes come back together again. Viper exhaust is the exact same length…..therefore there is basically zero power gain. If anything, on a Viper, it might possibly serve to quiet it down a tad. The rear muffler delete is fairly benign mod to start with. Great improvement over stock, but it definitely doesn’t need an X pipe to make it quieter. Bottom line is you basically paid over $500 dollars for 2 tips, as the same sound (maybe better) and HP gains can be accomplished by the above.

I hate to say it, but people willing to pay this kind of money for something so simple to do is part of the reason the Viper tax came to be. Dodge is responsible as well…….like a power steering cap.
Viper $25 bucks / JEEP $5 bucks……same cap. Ridiculous!

Steve

 

[dave6666]

You can buy SS exhaust tips from your local Redneck truck accessory shops. Probably the same math as pointed out on the P/S cap above.

 

[Bravo]

How about some hi-res pics of Random vs. Redneck.....?

 

[dave6666]

Redneck pics delivered.

And why would I have pics of the Random? Don't they?

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[Bravo]

Thanks Dave..... McGuiverized Redneck......function over form.
Anyone have good Random delete pics? Going to have to be a few hundred dollars prettier.

 

[CROM]

Any good muffler shop can do this with two 18" pieces of pipe and 1/2 hour labor. I had him put the stock tips back on. Paid $30 bucks total in 2000 for the muffler delete at my local shop.

Steve

Depends on where you live. 30 bucks in the country, 300 dollars where I live. Most shops see a Viper and start salivating. They also refuse to do something like this without spending the time to jack the car up and measure. I live in a wealthy area where most car guys love paying ridiculous rates for "top quality" work. 200 an hour is not out of the ordinary for any type of labor. I purchased a used Borla for 600 instead.

IMHO get a full exhaust system, you'll regret not getting a full system a few months down the road. The full RT is 1000 shipped from PartsRack?

 

[LiquoRT/10]

I was told I have RT's with muffler delete. My system came with the car. I also have Daves redneck tips.

 

[FE 065]

I’ve always been told that Xs and Hs are effective for a slight power gain in systems of unequal length --sideways motors for example. They then have to be placed as close to the unequal portion as possible. Ie. back at the engine or wherever the pipes come back together again. Viper exhaust is the exact same length…..therefore there is basically zero power gain.
Steve

Wow that's just way wrong. My homemade H pipes have twice added over 20hp to my Vipers. Gains like that from H pipes are very much the norm is for just about all hi-po engines-especially big cubic inch engines.

Which is why I first made one for my '94 Viper having read about H pipe tests in the magazines since the 70's or maybe even prior to that. The identical successor to that one (which went with the '94 when I sold it) again lowered the ET by over .2 sec on my '99 GTS two years ago.

Now I'm happy to say that H pipe is on my near stock '01 ACR which managed three runs over 121mph and one run over 123mph a few weeks ago. Couldn't get past 11.90s that day, I think I was shifting at too high an rpm. I'm still playing with shift points and exhaust changes.

I'm going back to the strip tomorrow to test a new exhaust change aft of the H pipe, and try some different shift lite pills.


The difference is that my H pipe is not back where the rear muffler used to be, which might alter someone's resonance factor, but is too far back to do any good hp-wise.

H pipes have been around forever...

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The difference is that my H pipe is not back where the rear muffler used to be, which might alter someone's resonance factor, but is too far back to do any good hp-wise.

If you're not running a H pipe where the rear muffler was then you must be running a crossover somewhere further upstream. Care to show pics or let us know?

 

[dave6666]

If you're not running a H pipe where the rear muffler was then you must be running a crossover somewhere further upstream. Care to show pics or let us know?

Chuck, you silly head! It runs through the seat bottom cushions and under the tranny tailshaft housing!

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Wow that's just way wrong. My homemade H pipes have twice added over 20hp to my Vipers. Gains like that from H pipes are very much the norm is for just about all hi-po engines-especially big cubic inch engines.

Which is why I first made one for my '94 Viper having read about H pipe tests in the magazines since the 70's or maybe even prior to that. The identical successor to that one (which went with the '94 when I sold it) again lowered the ET by over .2 sec on my '99 GTS two years ago.

Now I'm happy to say that H pipe is on my near stock '01 ACR which managed three runs over 121mph and one run over 123mph a few weeks ago. Couldn't get past 11.90s that day, I think I was shifting at too high an rpm. I'm still playing with shift points and exhaust changes.

I'm going back to the strip tomorrow to test a new exhaust change aft of the H pipe, and try some different shift lite pills.


The difference is that my H pipe is not back where the rear muffler used to be, which might alter someone's resonance factor, but is too far back to do any good hp-wise.

H pipes have been around forever...

I’ve been away for several days Woodward Dream Cruising, but after reading this message decided to school up a little better on X / H pipes. First, I just Googled for a while. That was pretty much a toss up as to any gains from a H or X pipe. Some said each balanced the system better, but were both more for evening out sound. More places I found said the X pipe was capable of producing very slight power gains. Not so much with the H pipe. In doing a little more reading, I found out that OEMs have mainly used H pipes for acoustics --- still do.

Next, because I have 2 Belanger cars, I thought it fair to get a little free info from Lou Belanger. Here’s where it got interesting. According to Lou, both Xs and Hs were likely first implemented by his father. The Belangers have been in the hot rod header / exhaust business since 1957. He said an X pipe can create slight power gains, but must be configured properly. Sticking a X between two lengths of straight pipe accomplishes nothing.

The H pipe concept occurred somewhat by accident while his father was experimenting with different ideas. They found that the H pipe changed the sound qualities by mixing sound from the 2 sides. As Lou put it…..exhaust gas (or single puffs of air as he puts it) will not take a 90 degree left or right turn to go through an H pipe, but sound will. Sound will mix with the other side producing a different exhaust note which is more performance sounding for the most part. . Hot Rod magazine chronicled these Belanger innovations in a 1962 article. He says they have not seen a car produce more power with a H pipe. They have found that H pipes will alter sound almost anywhere in the system…even back where the rear mufflers are. On the other hand, an X pipe is more properly placed closer to the engine, not where the rear mufflers are. He said balance is not an issue because each pulse is making its way down the pipes alone.

….Which led to dynos….and their distrust of the numbers game. They have done a thousand plus dyno pulls over the years, but have come to the conclusion that it is a very inexact method. Peak HP on a dyno does not necessarily make a car faster. It is the power under the curve. There is about a +/-3% factor for dyno numbers on any given day /car /dyno. Even for a stock Viper that becomes a +/- 12HP swing. Peak HP sometimes becomes a bench racing game and does not translate to the ground.

As the ¼ mile, any GENII Viper can break 12 seconds with a good driver (not me)

Now I know this is pretty much contrary to your research and experience, but I do believe the Belanger Boys have some chops in their chosen area of expertise. I am reporting what I was told…nothing more. Lou did say that you may have some sort of design he’s not familiar with, but the basic construction of a H pipe yields zero power in any testing they’ve ever done.

As for the premise of the discussion above, I’ll stand my ground. Value and bang for the buck should be the same everywhere. Sadly, and for no good reason, it seems these things have taken a back seat in some areas allowing the Viper tax to fatten up even more.

Steve

 

[Dom426h]

I hate to say it, but people willing to pay this kind of money for something so simple to do is part of the reason the Viper tax came to be.

i somewhat agree, but your comment has nothing to do specificaly with Vipers but rather everything to do with Anyone with a Nice car that has; lack of auto knowlege/time/connections, or simply too much money. Everyone has different situations.

also, your 30bucks in and out was a good deal, but as someone mentioned; when you pull up to the shop with a viper some shops think they can charge u whatever. I know a muffler delete would only take a 1/2 hr, but would expect to pay 1hr of labor + materials. no prob

 

[2001 GTS]

I've had the random tech x-pipe for almost 6yrs now and is the only part of the exhaust setup that has never been changed.

 

[dave6666]

I've had the random tech x-pipe for almost 6yrs now and is the only part of the exhaust setup that has never been changed.

What have you done to the rest?

 

[FE 065]

I've got a lengthy exhaust test done with tons of scientific equipment stored somewhere that at one part notes the effect of a pipe running off perpendicular to the exhaust, but I'm not going to look for it. You can't tell forced induction guys anything anyways.

It's hard to figure it out completely. I'm told when you open the block off plates on cars with lakes pipes, the exhaust will still pulse out the tailpipes rather than the lakes pipes.. When I ran my '94 back in 1996 with the block off plates removed like open dumps just to see what happened, the car wasn't any quicker at all, still running consistent 12.38/12.39s like when the system was capped up.

But when I pulled back into the pits, bolted up the H pipe quickly, then went back out, the car ran 12.16 & 12.12 on the next two runs. The car had a shift lite and DRs, eliminating a lot of variables.

Best my '99 GTS was doing on its' initial outings a couple years ago was 12 teens, until I went back two weeks later to the same strip with the H pipe bolted up and ran 11.89 & 11.93. Again with a shift lite and DRs.

With the closest strips each 50 miles away, I don't use race winning holeshots when I'm doing test and tune. No sense breaking something while only looking for small improvements. So I use starts that don't yield the best ETs, but are easy on parts and yield consistent results.

I'm not making huge changes, so there aren't huge gains. 121-123mph trap speeds are doing pretty good though on a near stock creampuff with DRs that eliminate the higher MPH when you're spinning a lot factor. That's better than my '99 GTS at the same strip. Trap speed changes are typically seen as indication of HP, where ET is more driver.

Here ya go Chuck, each side bolts up where the flex pipe was, crosses under the frame, meeting the other side in front of the trans:

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I made it U shaped to avoid running directly under the oil pan. Maybe the extra length is the secret.

I'm adding a Borla catback tomorrow to free the exhaust up behind the sills, replacing the Borla sill mufflers with 5" inlet/outlet bullet mufflers just to keep things breathing free. That'll take a little exhaust fabrication under the sills, but that's okay-real testing requires more effort for answers than web surfing does.

Then one more little innovation between the engine and sills to try, which will require removing the H pipe.. So I'll be giving up .2 right off the bat.

Shelby's gone from X pipe to H pipe on one of his Mustangs btw, I think it's on the KR...guess he should call Lou?

I don't know that any header builder's going to admit that $100 worth of tubing yields gains the same as his $1500 headers. I mean what's he going to say, "Oh ya just use a 3' of tubing under there and you'll get +20hp too!" ? Most guys adding headers alone are only seeing a 20-25hp gain, same as my H pipe added - on two different cars - under fairly controlled conditions.

- I posted my first results here way back in 1996. I believe that was before Lou was building Viper headers, so it's not like I reported my results then just to say it could be done for less than his...

That's all I've got to say on it.