Rear suspension defect?

[steve911]

Rolling all business expenses into the price of the product used to be the norm. But with so many costs being fluid in this day and age, its too expensive to have to keep prices current in catalogs, on line stores etc. Its easier to keep cost current on the final tally.

It is becoming much more common these days especially in the manufacturing and industrial sector. Like it or not...

Steve A.

 

[datruodb]

That's a tight fit. Put mine on last weekend over the holiday. That one bolt is easy to get to, but the other has little clearance to it. What did you use to tighten it up? I didn't check the torque when I was breaking them loose, but damn those felt way over torqued.

I used a whole can of brake cleaner on the rear, man it was dirty back in there.

Got the upright braces installed Wed in less than 2 hours, which included some wheel off detailing.
Has anyone called a dealer as Chrysler Spokesman Eric Mayne said below? Curious what they would say about it.

Chrysler said it is cooperating in the investigation and that the Viper meets all federal safety standards. Spokesman Eric Mayne said any Viper owners with concerns should contact a dealer.

Read more: http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/2...ge-viper-for-suspension-problem#ixzz2TSQ3q3w5

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[PeterMJ]

I think you might be overly optimistic about that one.

Oh I don't know... I guess it will all depend on how well the Gen5 is selling and from what I see, the sales have been less than stellar.

 

[PeterMJ]

Gilles is on Twitter. Has anyone tried to ask him there? I did and my message vanished very quickly... Hmmm

 

[datruodb]

in that case I say we keep bombarding him with the same question. With persistence like that it can't be ignored.

 

[ROCKET62]

The challenge with this situation when it happens is the question of whether the knuckle broke before or after the wreck. Clearly the knuckle will break with strong contact - but for those that had an "unexplained" loss of control is the knuckle the smoking gun? Would a pothole weaken the knuckle causing the break at a later time - seems plausible to me.

PS - my 2009 Viper is rebuilt after a wreck - and guess what - it had a broken knuckle. Too bad I just cleaned out the garage and tossed out the control arm about 2 months ago.

 

[PeterMJ]

in that case I say we keep bombarding him with the same question. With persistence like that it can't be ignored.

https://twitter.com/RalphGilles

Should be interesting to see if any will show on Twitter? I would definitely leave him a message there.

 

[Ryan_DSA]

current priceing on the braces:

Products Subtotal:
$279.95
Shipping & Handling:
$35.58

Im in WI 3-4 hours north

 

[Steve M]

in that case I say we keep bombarding him with the same question. With persistence like that it can't be ignored.

It can, and likely will be depending on how people approach the problem. If you just start whining and demand answers/action, you won't get very far.

 

[steve911]

Call SnakeOyl Direct. That what I did my shipping and handling were a lot less and I am in WI also. I think it their computer program that automatically figured out the fees that is the problem.

current priceing on the braces:

Products Subtotal:
$279.95
Shipping & Handling:
$35.58

Im in WI 3-4 hours north

 

[Paul Hawker]

I do shipping at my company, and just pass along the UPS charges. Doing this is loosing my shirt. In addition to UPS charges I need to provide a shipping employee, his insurance and benefits, a space for him to work, a computer to handle the UPS software that calculates the charges, insurance, and also consider that everytime the UPS guy stops in for a pick up or deliver he spends an extra 5 minutes chit chatting with my employees about politics or sports.

In addition you need to pay for a box, tape, a tape gun, labels, someone to key in your address, and someone to figure out how to charge you for the billing,and someone to actually bill you the right amount, and a cushion to cover the credit card or paypal fees, cushioning material, a table, lighting, heating, air conditioning, as nobody gives you this for free.

For a company, it probably is not to much to ask that if a customer wishes to have it shipped out, that they pay the full costs of the service. You cannot say just make up for it in the markup of the product. In a modern company, every service must stand as its' own profit center.

No free lunch here guys.

 

[ACRucrazy]

Does not justify $30 in shipping for 2 brackets, not one bit.
You can say just make it up in the product markup, because... make it up in the mark up of the product.

You try and get $30 in shipping for 2 small brackets people are going to call it out and-or not purchase. Well, like is being done so here.

$17 to ship 1 ball joint boot, $31 to ship 2 radiator hoses, $44 to ship some 2 radiator hoses & 1 ball joint boot.
Note to self, will not be shopping @ snake-oyl online.

EDIT: Checked out VPOA just for the heck of it

$8.85 to ship 1 ball joint boot, $13 to ship 2 radiator hoses, $14 to ship 2 radiator hoses & 1 ball joint boot.

 

[canadian venom]

I do shipping at my company, and just pass along the UPS charges. Doing this is loosing my shirt. In addition to UPS charges I need to provide a shipping employee, his insurance and benefits, a space for him to work, a computer to handle the UPS software that calculates the charges, insurance, and also consider that everytime the UPS guy stops in for a pick up or deliver he spends an extra 5 minutes chit chatting with my employees about politics or sports.

In addition you need to pay for a box, tape, a tape gun, labels, someone to key in your address, and someone to figure out how to charge you for the billing,and someone to actually bill you the right amount, and a cushion to cover the credit card or paypal fees, cushioning material, a table, lighting, heating, air conditioning, as nobody gives you this for free.

For a company, it probably is not to much to ask that if a customer wishes to have it shipped out, that they pay the full costs of the service. You cannot say just make up for it in the markup of the product. In a modern company, every service must stand as its' own profit center.

No free lunch here guys.

My kind of math... people wants everything for free but there is a cost to it...

 

[AZTVR]

PS - my 2009 Viper is rebuilt after a wreck - and guess what - it had a broken knuckle. Too bad I just cleaned out the garage and tossed out the control arm about 2 months ago.

So, was the wreck caused by the broken knuckle, or was the knuckle broken by the accident ?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

With all the "internet pricing" we have to constantly compete with it is hard to "roll the cost into the product price" and still sell the parts to a "shopper". I have always charged within +/- $5 depending on order size to be competitive, but I also take care of 75% of the process to insure it is done timely. I guess I should be trying for more as you said mainly to cover the CC charges, my time could be better spent producing.

Thanks Paul

I do shipping at my company, and just pass along the UPS charges. Doing this is loosing my shirt. In addition to UPS charges I need to provide a shipping employee, his insurance and benefits, a space for him to work, a computer to handle the UPS software that calculates the charges, insurance, and also consider that every time the UPS guy stops in for a pick up or deliver he spends an extra 5 minutes chit chatting with my employees about politics or sports.

In addition you need to pay for a box, tape, a tape gun, labels, someone to key in your address, and someone to figure out how to charge you for the billing,and someone to actually bill you the right amount, and a cushion to cover the credit card or paypal fees, cushioning material, a table, lighting, heating, air conditioning, as nobody gives you this for free.

For a company, it probably is not to much to ask that if a customer wishes to have it shipped out, that they pay the full costs of the service. You cannot say just make up for it in the markup of the product. In a modern company, every service must stand as its' own profit center.

No free lunch here guys.

 

[PeterMJ]

It can, and likely will be depending on how people approach the problem. If you just start whining and demand answers/action, you won't get very far.

Gheez, demanding straight answers from Fiat by the car owners is not a good approach? Would it be more effective to get attorneys involved? I may think pretty hard about keeping my viper then... There is no whining when personal safety is involved but thanks for putting it this way anyway.

 

[PeterMJ]

With all the "internet pricing" we have to constantly compete with it is hard to "roll the cost into the product price" and still sell the parts to a "shopper". I have always charged within +/- $5 depending on order size to be competitive, but I also take care of 75% of the process to insure it is done timely. I guess I should be trying for more as you said mainly to cover the CC charges, my time could be better spent producing.

Thanks Paul

These parts themselves are severely overpriced, I suppose market monopoly can lead to extra profits.

 

[ACRucrazy]

These parts themselves are severely overpriced, I suppose market monopoly can lead to extra profits.

Agreed very much.

 

[PeterMJ]

I must be pretty naïve here but if there was a solution to a safety issue and I was a supposed enthusiast selling to other enthusiasts, I would make price for such item low enough (still making profit to survive) to encourage people to buy it-for the sake of their safety instead of trying to cash in on the situation. No wonder I do not sell anything

 

[chorps]

I must be pretty naïve here but if there was a solution to a safety issue and I was a supposed enthusiast selling to other enthusiasts, I would make price for such item low enough (still making profit to survive) to encourage people to buy it-for the sake of their safety instead of trying to cash in on the situation. No wonder I do not sell anything

Being a small volume producer can be very tough. Just look at all the talk about a 'Viper tax'. You can't have it both ways, rarity and low prices. The sunk costs are really high relative to the volume of production and the prospective market is very small. It's easy to lose a ton of money by mispricing a product (high or low).

 

[SSGNRDZ_28]

The bracket in question isn’t hard to make but the words “patent pending” may scare those willing to produce a cheaper or better quality part from doing so. Patents aren’t cheap, perhaps that is part of the added expense. With that said, I know nothing about the particulars of how this part is being produced or the cost and profit involved for this company. I can only figure what it would take me to design, manufacture, and ship said part.

Now as for the price, the Viper aftermarket is tough and somewhat risky. A small pool of cars with a smaller pool of buyers interested in a specific product – every Viper owner is interested in different things. Some only care about looks, some about performance, some about fuzzy dice and some will never even know about products they may be interested in.

Low quantities cost more to produce than high quantities, yet everyone seems to want something for very cheap these days. Of course you can make a higher quantity and sell at a lower price but you have a larger investment up front and it will take even more sales to make your money back with no guarantee of ever doing so. It is a guessing game and balancing act. Make a ton of widgets and nobody buys any and you have lost your personal time and money. Make a few but charge a higher price and nobody buys them because it is too expensive and you have lost your personal time and money.

If 20 people on here said they would buy a $225 / free shipping bracket set today you can't necessarily count on any of those to put their money where their mouth is when the time comes.

Just my $0.02 FWIW.

 

[PeterMJ]

Being a small volume producer can be very tough. Just look at all the talk about a 'Viper tax'. You can't have it both ways, rarity and low prices. The sunk costs are really high relative to the volume of production and the prospective market is very small. It's easy to lose a ton of money by mispricing a product (high or low).

Come on, this ain't no flux capacitor we are talking about here, this is a pretty simple metal bracket. Even if this part was 100 bucks, there would be 70 bucks of profit in it. BTW, you should check out the price of 3D printers these days if you think there was a serious chunk of money in R&D involved here.

 

[PeterMJ]

The bracket in question isn’t hard to make but the words “patent pending” may scare those willing to produce a cheaper or better quality part from doing so.

Patent pending means nothing actually. All this means is that someone does not want to spend the money to get the patent or cannot do it due to infringing on someone else's invention. Also, you do not have to invent anything to get a patent, all you have to do is improve upon something that already exists. Thus, someone could revise the bracket and patent the revision which I would call poetic justice.

 

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Patent pending means nothing actually. All this means is that someone does not want to spend the money to get the patent or cannot do it due to infringing on someone else's invention. Also, you do not have to invent anything to get a patent, all you have to do is improve upon something that already exists. Thus, someone could revise the bracket and patent the revision which I would call poetic justice.

Actually it means a patent has been applied for and fraudulent use of this term is illegal. Now action can’t be taken until the patent is granted but imagine getting ready to sell something after having made an investment only to learn the patent has been approved. That adds even more risk to the whole scenario.

 

[PeterMJ]

Actually it means a patent has been applied for and fraudulent use of this term is illegal. Now action can’t be taken until the patent is granted but imagine getting ready to sell something after having made an investment only to learn the patent has been approved. That adds even more risk to the whole scenario.

Uhm, supporting vendor being discussed-I am sure this cannot lead to anything good. I need to learn how to keep my mouth shut. Feel free to PM though, LOL.

 

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Peter,

You seem like a knowledgeable guy. If you produce and sell a bracket that is cheaper / lighter and of superior quality and strength I'll buy a set. It seems like this would be a good opportunity for you. The existing brackets are heavy welded steel with a fit and finish I don't prefer to mount on my car. Something made of machined titanium would be more appropriate but perhaps cost prohibitive. A machined steel piece would look nicer and could be lighter weight. Or just a piece with a cleaner weld and better finish that costs half as much.

 

[PeterMJ]

Haha, I think you are being sarcastic. I am a DIY'er. Knowing me, I would make support brackets out of some carbon fiber composite

 

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I'm actually serious... not something I want to take on myself for reasons already stated, but would be in the market. CF is fine should it be proven effective.

 

[datruodb]

Who cares about the look? I mean if you are running 220' tires then okay. MAYBE, just maybe you could see the bracket. I just painted mine with flat black before I bolted them up. The fit and finish of these brackets are nice. I'm not and engineer, so I don't know the specifics on strength/ stress for long term usage. I'm also assuming that the guys that race with these it works just fine for them. If it works for them then I'm sure it will work just fine for my spirited driving.

The place that is selling those parts is a business not a charity. Could most of us make them for less? I'm sure we could, but it's not worth my time for 300 bones.

 

[Steve M]

Gheez, demanding straight answers from Fiat by the car owners is not a good approach? Would it be more effective to get attorneys involved? I may think pretty hard about keeping my viper then... There is no whining when personal safety is involved but thanks for putting it this way anyway.

Okay...prove that the rear upright toe link connection point is a problem. All you have at this point is anecdotal evidence from an internet forum. There are safety issues, and then there are perceived safety issues. I learned this lesson the hard way trying to deal with a defect on my '02 Camaro with GM, and I had a better case then than the Viper community does here. In case you couldn't already figure it out, GM told me to go pound sand.

So far, no one has been able to prove that a broken knuckle caused any sort of accident - that some have broken on cars that have been in an accident in no way points to the knuckle being the problem. Plus, you can't verify that a knuckle didn't break because some bonehead was beating on it while trying to do an alignment, etc.

Going direct to a CEO via social media is the wrong approach IMO. Hence my comment about whining, because I guarantee you that's how it will come across. If you want to prove a point, you'd best back it up with test/engineering data, not posts on a Viper forum.