reliabilty of twin turbo vs supercharger

3520henri

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Posts
34
Reaction score
0
Location
Arlington, Texas
How reliable is a twin turbo Viper vs a supercharged one? I understand when you add more power, things are eventually going to break, but if you are not tracking the car, and not driving the car hard every minute, how do they hold up? Thanks for any input!
 

plumcrazy

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Posts
16,243
Reaction score
7
Location
ALL OVER
id guess there are more SC'd cars with higher miles than TT cars but only cause of the power and owner.

i have about 10K on mine. paxton sc.

i cant think of any high mile TT cars. most seem to get built and sat on or sold.
 

SquadX

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Posts
996
Reaction score
0
Location
VA/MD/DC
I think if the engine is built right, its fine with both but the difference in the two, and this is just my opinion, is the trans and rear diff. Id think the turbo would stress those components more being the power can come full depend where you are in the rpm range, as opposed to the paxton (notice I didnt say roe), which builds with rpms.
I have yet to see a high mile TT and as plum stated, most TT them, and resale shortly after and I think theres a reason for that and its not always "im bored" with it.
 

DEADEYE

Viper Owner
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Posts
558
Reaction score
0
Location
Harvey, La.
I've always wondered why the TT cars get sold quickly. People tend to hold on to their SC cars.
 

Viper Specialty

Legacy/Supporting Vendor
Supporting Vendor
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
5,756
Reaction score
75
Location
Cape Coral, FL
TT cars will in general be more reliable at a given power level than their SC counterparts, so long as the systems are built with high quality parts. The efficiency of a Twin Turbo setup is much higher than a Supercharged setup, and as a result, the same power output at the wheels can be achieved using less boost, and at a substantially lower total power output of a given engine design. The engine itself in a Supercharged configuration is making a lot more horsepower than a Twin Turbo configuration even if the output to the wheels is the same. This stems from the fact that a Supercharger requires a percentage of the total power produced to drive it, while Twin Turbos do not. Also, Twin Turbo cars do not have wear components like belts, gear drives for the Supercharger, and do not attach to the snout of the crankshaft.

I think the real reason that people tend to sell Twin Turbo cars is that since they are cost prohibitive to build in small packages, people tend to overshoot on their builds, and end up with a monster of a car, with no way to adequately control it... especially when factoring in that many people do not know what "turbo lag" is like. If you put your foot to the floor, and the boost comes on unexpectedly after the initial lag [for someone who doesn't know that is how they are supposed to act] it can be hard to control, while Superchagers are very linear in their power delivery. The newer engine management systems that are surfacing do take care of this problem with traction and launch controls at the flip of a switch however, but talking someone into extra thousands of dollars to do it RIGHT, can sometimes be difficult.
 
OP
OP
3

3520henri

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Posts
34
Reaction score
0
Location
Arlington, Texas
For the owners on here of supercharged cars, have you driven a turbo car and what are the pros and cons? I have never seen a turbo Viper in person or driven one, so I was just curious if they are harder to handle and as loud as a supercharged Viper?
 

Bobpantax

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
6,957
Reaction score
3
Location
Miami
Dan. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't a twin turbo car generate far more heat under the hood than a supercharged car? When I had my Maserati Biturbo E many years ago, it got so hot in the engine compartment that the fuse cubes would occasionally succumb to the heat. I used to carry some extra ones in the glove compartment. I have not had this issue with my Viper, Jeep or Lightning all of which are supercharged.
 

Viper Specialty

Legacy/Supporting Vendor
Supporting Vendor
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
5,756
Reaction score
75
Location
Cape Coral, FL
For the owners on here of supercharged cars, have you driven a turbo car and what are the pros and cons? I have never seen a turbo Viper in person or driven one, so I was just curious if they are harder to handle and as loud as a supercharged Viper?


They tend to be quieter, and just as easy to handle so long as you understand the power level you are at, and how it reacts. LARGE twin turbo packages can be a handful without the correct engine management due to spooling times, and unexpected power delivery. As pointed out however, with an EMS that can "softcut" your power level if need be, the issue takes care of itself.
 
Last edited:

Viper Specialty

Legacy/Supporting Vendor
Supporting Vendor
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
5,756
Reaction score
75
Location
Cape Coral, FL
Dan. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't a twin turbo car generate far more heat under the hood than a supercharged car? When I had my Maserati Biturbo E many years ago, it got so hot in the engine compartment that the fuse cubes would occasionally succumb to the heat. I used to carry some extra ones in the glove compartment. I have not had this issue with my Viper, Jeep or Lightning all of which are supercharged.

This is generally correct, but is also very subjective to how the system is put together. Most Viper Twin Turbo systems take the same/similar general location as Catalytic converters, which generate FAR more heat than a Turbocharger, as they are intended to induce internal combustion by function. The extra heat is not from one single "super-hot source", but rather from a larger number of hot sources. If you use the correct shielding to protect items nearby, it is not an issue. However, this is a responsive approach, rather than a presolution which would be to keep the heat where it is supposed to be in the first place: IN THE EXHAUST. By using insulated components, ceramic barriers, coatings, and the like, blackbody radiation is cut down to a minimum, and the heat is generally contained to even less of a concern than the OEM converters. Your Maserati was likely the victim of a design flaw such as putting low temps plastics in an updraft area, or poor material selection- nothing more.
 
Last edited:

treesnake

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
2,288
Reaction score
2
Location
St.L
I have a SC car.......

Home_finally_007.jpg







Should be able to report on the TT real soon....

So far....TT :D


garage2_3-10.jpg
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
3

3520henri

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Posts
34
Reaction score
0
Location
Arlington, Texas
Thanks so much for all of the great info guys!! Now I just need to find a supercharged or turbo Viper for sale in the upper 30s to low 40s
 

treesnake

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
2,288
Reaction score
2
Location
St.L
Seriously, if you decide to go the big FI route, be sure your Zanex prescription is filled....:smirk:









;)

It can be unbelievably frustrating...... But, when you feel boost, all the aggravation is forgotten....:D
 

treesnake

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
2,288
Reaction score
2
Location
St.L
One other thing....

Whatever cost estimates you get for the build......

Double it.....:dunno:
 

treesnake

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
2,288
Reaction score
2
Location
St.L
Thanks so much for all of the great info guys!! Now I just need to find a supercharged or turbo Viper for sale in the upper 30s to low 40s


That's the cost of the engine build.....

Don't you want a car to go with it.....


:rolaugh:
 

plumcrazy

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Posts
16,243
Reaction score
7
Location
ALL OVER
from a friend that doesn't post here. he has a TT gen1 with a built motor.

I put have over 9k on my tt after I built the motor. John Reed will be here in april to retune for more boost,knock control map,and launch control map
 

Steve 00RT/10

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 18, 2000
Posts
1,751
Reaction score
0
Location
Michigan
I believe all that Dan has stated above. Very knowledgeable guy.

However; I would add the following for thought. Reliability, given the driving conditions stated initially, is somewhat of a moot point. Most Vipers see very little mileage over their lifetime so either ‘proven’ set up should be reliable.

For the record, I put my Roe on at 54K miles, have tracked it and done big road trips. It has never left the garage without some tires spinning somewhere along the route and a good dose of WOT. It is now pushing 91K miles and has had no SC issues. As for cost, I have no additional cost to install other than what was initially figured for the parts:

5 pound Roe blower, 96 PCM, NGK wide band set up, cooler T-stat, Roe crankcase breather, and Roe software. ….just the basics. $8,441 in 2006

We also have no issues with our other Roe car, but that one only has 12K miles on the blower. We have had no drivetrain problems with either. There probably is much truth in the 650 RWHP number kind of being the dividing line for having to add various additional parts from stock.

As for TQ with a SC car, if you keep a stock type tire on the car, TQ is not as much an issue. The tire is your shear pin. Sticky tires and you'll probably have to beef up the half shafts. You'll also be putting much more strain on the rest of the drive system.

Steve
 

mbccenter

Legacy Supporting Vendor
Supporting Vendor
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Posts
1,050
Reaction score
5
Location
Forest Lake, MN
I have seen them being sold all day long for this price so that is why I ask, especially on this site and others

I don't think all day long. Maybe a stock car with a supercharger bolted on it. You are not going to get any real TT car for that money.:lmao:
 

whitebluevipe

Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 4, 2003
Posts
926
Reaction score
0
Location
danville, pa
I believe all that Dan has stated above. Very knowledgeable guy.

However; I would add the following for thought. Reliability, given the driving conditions stated initially, is somewhat of a moot point. Most Vipers see very little mileage over their lifetime so either ‘proven’ set up should be reliable.

For the record, I put my Roe on at 54K miles, have tracked it and done big road trips. It has never left the garage without some tires spinning somewhere along the route and a good dose of WOT. It is now pushing 91K miles and has had no SC issues. As for cost, I have no additional cost to install other than what was initially figured for the parts:

5 pound Roe blower, 96 PCM, NGK wide band set up, cooler T-stat, Roe crankcase breather, and Roe software. ….just the basics. $8,441 in 2006

We also have no issues with our other Roe car, but that one only has 12K miles on the blower. We have had no drivetrain problems with either. There probably is much truth in the 650 RWHP number kind of being the dividing line for having to add various additional parts from stock.

As for TQ with a SC car, if you keep a stock type tire on the car, TQ is not as much an issue. The tire is your shear pin. Sticky tires and you'll probably have to beef up the half shafts. You'll also be putting much more strain on the rest of the drive system.

Steve

this is the kind of stuff i like to read that really inspires confidence in these cars.:headbang:
 

treesnake

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
2,288
Reaction score
2
Location
St.L
If you need to ask.....

Your best bet is to bolt on a Roe or Paxton and enjoy the car at that level.....


My statements are made from personal experience with owning BOTH.

PLUMCRAZY's quote is a good example of the next level.....
 

treesnake

Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
2,288
Reaction score
2
Location
St.L
3520henri

Enthusiast

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 8


Just noticed this......

My suggestion would be to learn how to drive a Viper first, at stock levels, THEN consider upgrading.

These cars are a handful to someone that doesn't have experience with them.

Again, from experience and IMO...

FWIW...
Dan at Viper Specialty is "right on" in his description....:2tu:

Good luck finding/getting your car. Whichever way you go.....
 
OP
OP
3

3520henri

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Posts
34
Reaction score
0
Location
Arlington, Texas
Thanks guys,much appreciated!! I had to change my screen name changed since last time I was on here, as I did own a 99GTS for 5 years with the average bolt-ons and all of you have been so helpful over the years on here, (cant say that about the alley) now I just want something a little more.
 

Paul Hawker

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 1, 2000
Posts
4,660
Reaction score
0
Location
San Diego, Calif, USA
Both supercharged and turbo'd Vipers tend to be more reliable than you would expect when boost is at lower levels.

If the engines are properly built to handle the additional boost, reliability can be maintained at medium boost levels.

As the boost levels rise, the reliability suffers.

At aggressive boost levels, reliability can go downhill fast, as the excitement level rises expotentially.

In other words, if reliability is your issue, watch the boost.

Reliability is also enhanced by the knowledge and thoughtfulness of the builder.
 

eucharistos

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Posts
6,845
Reaction score
2
Location
Houston
TT cars will in general be more reliable at a given power level than their SC counterparts, so long as the systems are built with high quality parts. The efficiency of a Twin Turbo setup is much higher than a Supercharged setup, and as a result, the same power output at the wheels can be achieved using less boost, and at a substantially lower total power output of a given engine design. The engine itself in a Supercharged configuration is making a lot more horsepower than a Twin Turbo configuration even if the output to the wheels is the same. This stems from the fact that a Supercharger requires a percentage of the total power produced to drive it, while Twin Turbos do not. Also, Twin Turbo cars do not have wear components like belts, gear drives for the Supercharger, and do not attach to the snout of the crankshaft.

I think the real reason that people tend to sell Twin Turbo cars is that since they are cost prohibitive to build in small packages, people tend to overshoot on their builds, and end up with a monster of a car, with no way to adequately control it... especially when factoring in that many people do not know what "turbo lag" is like. If you put your foot to the floor, and the boost comes on unexpectedly after the initial lag [for someone who doesn't know that is how they are supposed to act] it can be hard to control, while Superchagers are very linear in their power delivery. The newer engine management systems that are surfacing do take care of this problem with traction and launch controls at the flip of a switch however, but talking someone into extra thousands of dollars to do it RIGHT, can sometimes be difficult.
__________________



This is generally correct, but is also very subjective to how the system is put together. Most Viper Twin Turbo systems take the same/similar general location as Catalytic converters, which generate FAR more heat than a Turbocharger, as they are intended to induce internal combustion by function. The extra heat is not from one single "super-hot source", but rather from a larger number of hot sources. If you use the correct shielding to protect items nearby, it is not an issue. However, this is a responsive approach, rather than a presolution which would be to keep the heat where it is supposed to be in the first place: IN THE EXHAUST. By using insulated components, ceramic barriers, coatings, and the like, blackbody radiation is cut down to a minimum, and the heat is generally contained to even less of a concern than the OEM converters. Your Maserati was likely the victim of a design flaw such as putting low temps plastics in an updraft area, or poor material selection- nothing more.




thanks for all the informative posts dan
 

LaViper

VCA Venom Member
Venom Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Posts
520
Reaction score
3
Location
Ponchatoula, La
I purchased a TT car used 5 months ago. It is an 06 car with appx. 10,000 miles built by RSI. The 2nd Owner (I Believe) had problems with the car,then sold it. I bought the car from the 3rd owner & have put over 6,000 miles on the car, changed engine oil twice & Have tried to find any problems or screw ups on the car but only found one turbo return oil line loose.I've finally learned to drive the car fairly well, without spinning the tires @ high speeds & truly lOVE the car.(Especially @ the price I paid for it). Idles perfect, even with A/C on, is as quiet as a stock car,(Wish it was a little louder),has a Greddy Management system on it. I usually drive the car with the Turbo's off. Have the Greddy systen set on low 7 lbs. boost & 12 lbs.on High.I haven't ran it on high yet, it spins the stock run craps too easy on low. Twin Turbo's, what a wild Ride.
 

1fast400

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 15, 2006
Posts
462
Reaction score
0
I drive mine all the time when weather is nice. I've raced mine countless time. I do big pulls on the interstate. The only thing I've done is change oil. I've driven my car to the drag strip, ran in the 5's and drove home (1/8th mile). I will be driving it to pinks all out next month and plan on putting down an 8 second time slip with a nitto invo tire.

My car is an underground racing car. They're finishing a 2nd car now for me. I personally would only buy from them. Not because other tuners are bad, but because my experience with them as been flawless.
 

Knight Viper

Viper Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2005
Posts
743
Reaction score
0
Location
Harford county MD
I have a Roe SC car (20k on blower) and if I had to do it again I would do TT. I'm limited to the amount of HP I can make by the efficiency of the blower (even with a 2.8L) and volume of the intake (ported blower intake matched to well ported heads). As stated above TT cars can be controlled from the cockpit for desired boost (HP) levels. I would have to add Nos to an already alcohol injected, well built motor, to reach my desired HP goal.
I have driven a TT Viper and albeit I can pull just as hard from initial dig the TT car keeps pulling harder and harder and there is an exhilarating feeling hearing the wast gates let go as you are fighting to keep her pointed straight well up into the triple digits. just my $.02

With 20,000 AWESOME miles on Roe never had reliability issues when tuned correctly!!
Would recommend a AEM flow monitor/fail safe if you are going to be running water/methanol and have it tuned for max HP!
 
Top