RMS is the Header Scammer not Viper23

[Torquemonster]

There's a cloud hanging over both Viper23 and RMS run by Scott in Colorado.

I say one should be cleared and the other should take the responsibility.

That is my opinion so I'll be the one to say it.


I say that Viper23

1 - Did NOT know that the header deal he was offered would not be genuine Bellanger headers

2 - That he TRUSTED Scott at RMS to supply 10 genuine Bellanger Headers when he could get 10 orders completed.

3 - That the price Viper23 was quoted was below cost, but that Viper23 did not know that.

4 - That Viper23 came to the forum with honest intentions thinking he had a good deal to offer members.

5 - RMS attempted to sell 10 pirated headers through an unsuspecting Viper23.

6 - The RMS claim that the price quoted was actually $1795 is crap, the original price was as quoted by Viper23 on his thread and verified by a fellow member.


If RMS has a problem with this let them prove:

A - How they could buy 10 genuine Bellanger Headers and sell them below suppliers cost.

B - Explain why they lied about price

C - Explain how they could market and sell any genuine Bellanger headers at a discount when they were not even agents


In your honest opinion - have I stated this fairly Viper23?

 

[BadVenm]

I was hoping to benefit from this deal as many others were.

BUT....with a little homework and a little talking.....

I found an authorized Belanger Dealer today that will sell you 1 set or as many sets as you wish of REAL Belangers headers for $1,600.00 plus shipping. I think this is currently the best price I've seen out there. He said it is two to three weeks for delivery as Belanger has to build them.

I ordered a set today. I'm not in the middle of this deal, you would have to contact the Authorized Dealer directly. Anyone want contact info?

 

[Rollin4]

There's a cloud hanging over both Viper23 and RMS run by Scott in Colorado.

I say one should be cleared and the other should take the responsibility.

That is my opinion so I'll be the one to say it.


I say that Viper23

1 - Did NOT know that the header deal he was offered would not be genuine Bellanger headers

2 - That he TRUSTED Scott at RMS to supply 10 genuine Bellanger Headers when he could get 10 orders completed.

3 - That the price Viper23 was quoted was below cost, but that Viper23 did not know that.

4 - That Viper23 came to the forum with honest intentions thinking he had a good deal to offer members.

5 - RMS attempted to sell 10 pirated headers through an unsuspecting Viper23.

6 - The RMS claim that the price quoted was actually $1795 is crap, the original price was as quoted by Viper23 on his thread and verified by a fellow member.


If RMS has a problem with this let them prove:

A - How they could buy 10 genuine Bellanger Headers and sell them below suppliers cost.

B - Explain why they lied about price

C - Explain how they could market and sell any genuine Bellanger headers at a discount when they were not even agents


In your honest opinion - have I stated this fairly Viper23?

Torq, ditto on what you said about Viper 23. The guy seems like he is really trying to explain it all. If he was a Scammer, I don't think he would be around here trying to defend himself.

 

[joe117]

Sound's good to me.
I agree, that's the way it probably went down.

viper23, is that how it was?
Say it.....

 

[J DAWG]

Sound's good to me.
I agree, that's the way it probably went down.

viper23, is that how it was?
Say it.....

dude....he has said it numerous times. Open up your eyes.



Common sense ia a dangerous thing.

 

[joe117]

Mr Jdawg,
If I were involved in something that turned out to be an attempt to defraud my friends, I wouldn't be shy about getting out the details.

I'd like to hear viper23 say that he was used by RMS in an attempt to defraud VCA members.

As of this post, I've only seen him talk around the subject.

I think it's important that we get a straight line pointed at the people who tried to defraud VCA members on their own website.

I'd like to see the finger pointed in no uncertain terms.

Viper23, say it...

 

[J DAWG]

Mrjoe117,

He has told his side of the story. He story IS that he was lied to by RMS, which = being USED by them. He has given all the details as he knows them. Remember, RMS left him in the dark as much as possible since he was just a pawn to get to all the kings or queens. So he has nothing more to offer.

The facts are here. Read them again.

 

[J DAWG]

Viper23, say it...

Here is what he said....


" hope what I say here will help clear the issue. If it doesn't then I am sorry. I am just another Viper Owner who wanted to help his fellow Viper owners. I am not here to stir up anything or cause conflicts between anyone or any business. I have a few business myself and I would hate to lose a dealer or customers.

I would like to reiterate that I can not vouch for what any one said or what anyone else did. Should anyone that I emailed or PM can come up and show me proof that I ever asked for Money or Credit card info, then I am to blame (this is about 70 or so total). I don't want this to be he said she said thing. But should anyone had any doubt that I was making up this deal, then please read 2BADD4U's post regarding his conversation. I sent 2BADD4U about 2 *** prior to him sending me a PM informing me as what he discovered. And when I did not know the answers to his questions, I thought it would be best to give him a contact info. Then the rest was history. (I would like to thank him again for doing what he did).

I don't have headers and need a good set of headers. I was just calling companies that sold them and thought it was a good idea to ask about a "group deal" because I knew that others, like myself, have been looking for headers. Everyone is always looking for a "good deal", like Jon B said, "if it is too good to be true then maybe it is not." I am not saying that I am not at fault. I do appologize for causing any problems here.

I don't know what I can do or say to prove to everyone who is interested that I have no connections with RMS. What I can say is that I have never met anyone from RMS, never lived in CO, never have bought anything from RMS, or have heard of RMS before this. I can say that I live across the Pacific Ocean. I don't know what else I can say.

But again, I am sorry for any problems this may have caused. The most important thing I learned from all this is that "I should never judge anyone unless I know them personally". I have been on the otherside from you guys who what to know the truth. And I would make assumptions before I knew all the facts. All I can tell you is that you will never know how much it hurts until you are in my situation.

But like anything in life, I will move on. I just wish that you guys would know me personally and find out for yourself. But that is the problem with the internet. Everyone and anyone can hide behind the computer. I am here and will be here, so if anyone wants to come to HI for a visit, PM and I will take you out for a drink and show you anything you want to prove my innocence cause I have nothing to hide.

Again...I am very sorry for all this. "



After you read this read 2BADD4U's posts, then read mine, then read Tourqumaster, then apologize, then DROP IT!

 

[jcaspar1]

Exactly the way I see it!

 

[2BADD 4U]

Funny thing...when I talked with Lou Belanger on the phone...he told me of a Scott guy who was scamming people with counterfit Belanger headers ...about a year or so ago, on vettes, camaros, and vipers,etc....... Rms caters to all these same cars, even ricers.

Also Scott from Rms told me(on the phone) that he just installed Belanger headers on an 02 FE GTS last week...I wonder who owns that Viper???

Lets all email and call rms on the phone , that is if he answers his phone.

1-970-221-4805

[email protected]
Email Sales: [email protected]
Tech/Sales: [email protected]
Sales/Dyno: [email protected]

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

I can say categorically that:

1 - Did NOT know that the header deal he was offered would not be genuine Bellanger headers

1 - The headers offered WERE Belanger, I have verified that.

2 - That he TRUSTED Scott at RMS to supply 10 genuine Bellanger Headers when he could get 10 orders completed.

2 - Scott had every intention of supplying 10 sets of genuine Belanger headers.

3 - That the price Viper23 was quoted was below cost, but that Viper23 did not know that.

3 - From what I have heard, this is accurate.

4 - That Viper23 came to the forum with honest intentions thinking he had a good deal to offer members.

4 - Accurate.

5 - RMS attempted to sell 10 pirated headers through an unsuspecting Viper23.

5 - Inaccurate, this I have verified. RMS does sell genuine Belanger headers.

6 - The RMS claim that the price quoted was actually $1795 is crap, the original price was as quoted by Viper23 on his thread and verified by a fellow member.

6 - This gets technical. I'll have to review what was written, but there was some confusion, obviously. OK, Scot actually wrote The price was between my company and the end customer. Which now I can say is wrong. $1795 is the price on the headers. Scot is simply admitting he was wrong, and never says the "price quoted" was actually $1795 (sorry Torquie, I'm not sure if I have the semantics right...I hope that reads the way it sounds in my head).

A - How they could buy 10 genuine Bellanger Headers and sell them below suppliers cost.

A - Obviously, Scot could not, which lead to confusion/problems.

B - Explain why they lied about price

B - As above...I don't think it was a matter of lying about the price.....

C - Explain how they could market and sell any genuine Bellanger headers at a discount when they were not even agents

C - No explanation needed. RMS does do business with Belanger, there have been some misunderstandings posted by others. I can assure you what I say is true.

Here is my official take on this. Many who know me, know I am a level-headed person. In my own way I have devoted many years to this club, and I do my very best to look out for the best interests of the Viper Owners, VCA Members, this site, and our tuners/vendors.

I spent almost 5 hours (cumulative) on the phone tonight, talking to a few key people. I am 100% convinced there was NO SCAM. Poor choices? Yep. Did Scot make a little mistake? Possibly. But...did he, and/or Viper23, try to scam ANYONE? No, not in my opinion. This was a possible group buy gone bad, some misunderstandings, some not-so-good choices, and pressure.

Right or wrong (because everyone will have their own opinion), there was no malice involved...only the BEST intentions by Viper23 (gotta LOVE that weather out there!!! ) and Scot.

I am familiar enough with the details to make this statement. If you just gotta have more, sorry. The whole reason it fell apart is the same for not going into too much detail now (I know....kind of a conundrum). Do what you will with the info.....but let us please stop the he-said-he-said and "SCAM" accusations.

 

[2BADD 4U]

Vipermad.......I find this kinda funny now that I read the above post...

Just some more facts , You might want to know...

When I spoke to Lou Belanger on the phone, he told me in PLAIN English that he DOES NOT know of RMS and Scott, and has no dealings with him...And that RMS IS NOT a BELANGER DEALER...That phone call was also a 3 way "conference" call with Jon B from Parts rack Too! Call Jon B....

And Then Bill Pemberton called me , AFTER he got off the phone with Lou Belanger too, and Lou told him the same story as he told me, and Jon B.

When I spoke to Scott, he told me I was #9 on the list of 10 guys needed for the 10 group buy at $1480.

What sense does it make for a 10 group buy at $1795, when any single individual can get them at that price and lower?

Confused ??? oh yea

oh well whatever....some people are not shooting straight on this at all

Best to all

 

[J DAWG]

d@mn, now joe's gonna come back and start copying and pasting what everybody said.



Please Tony..... REMOVE THIS THREAD BEFORE IT'S TOOOOOO LATE.


10, 9, 8, 7, 6,..........

 

[Viper23]

There's a cloud hanging over both Viper23 and RMS run by Scott in Colorado.

I say one should be cleared and the other should take the responsibility.

That is my opinion so I'll be the one to say it.


I say that Viper23

1 - Did NOT know that the header deal he was offered would not be genuine Bellanger headers

2 - That he TRUSTED Scott at RMS to supply 10 genuine Bellanger Headers when he could get 10 orders completed.

3 - That the price Viper23 was quoted was below cost, but that Viper23 did not know that.

4 - That Viper23 came to the forum with honest intentions thinking he had a good deal to offer members.

5 - RMS attempted to sell 10 pirated headers through an unsuspecting Viper23.

6 - The RMS claim that the price quoted was actually $1795 is crap, the original price was as quoted by Viper23 on his thread and verified by a fellow member.


If RMS has a problem with this let them prove:

A - How they could buy 10 genuine Bellanger Headers and sell them below suppliers cost.

B - Explain why they lied about price

C - Explain how they could market and sell any genuine Bellanger headers at a discount when they were not even agents


In your honest opinion - have I stated this fairly Viper23?

First off, I would like to thank everyone for taking their time to find the truth.

With the above questions, all EXCEPT for number #5, I can answer. I don't have Belanger headers and have never seen them in person (only pictures) and do not know what the differences between a fake and real ones are. So I can't answer that question. But the rest of the statements are true.

I would like to say, that I was contacted by Vipermad (admin) and we spoke about the situation. And that is the conclusion that he arrived with. I will venture to say that he spoke to everyone involved and I respect his conclusion.

Thank you TM for doing this. And I appologize again for it getting to this point.

 

[RMSVIPER]

Since people are really trying to run my name into the ground here, I will defend myself and my business.

BE(Viper23) called me last week(wednesday I think) asking about B&B headers..Naturally I suggested the Balenger headers instead(maybe I shouldn't have). I gave him a price of $1620 plus shipping. He hangs up. He calls back interested in a group buy and if it's possible to get even a better deal. I say, let me check with Lou B. to get his permission and I will call him back. I talk to Lou B. we work out some details of how customers will get their headers, the drop shipping of them and amount production of them in lots of 3 at a time or so. We also worked out a price for me, the distributor. IMO this is none of the customers business. SO I called BE back and said yes we can do the group buy if you can get no less than 10 owners to call me OR I would contact them and get payment information. The price would be $1480 + shipping and it would not happen without 10 buyers. He's says great, I also asked him to please not advertise the price. Lou B. never said that I was scamming anyone, I asked him that myself. He did however disaggree with the price I offered the headers at to the group buy members when dealers called him or private guys. He has his reasons and this is obvious to protect him and other dealers. It's too bad that a few members have to slander a company name for no reason and that the members who REALLY DID want the headers lost out.

RMS...My company located in Fort Collins, Colorado has NEVER been involved in any scams or dishonest dealings. That information is TOTALLY FALSE.

The only other header I sell that is a Balenger copy is the $2800 B&B Header.

If anyone feels they would like to further this conversation. PLEASE call me, I would prefer it. I PICK UP PHONE between the hours of 9-6 mountain time...I did for you Dave, RIGHT!

Scot Hail
www.4redlinemotorsports.com
970-221-4805

Mrjoe117,

He has told his side of the story. He story IS that he was lied to by RMS, which = being USED by them. He has given all the details as he knows them. Remember, RMS left him in the dark as much as possible since he was just a pawn to get to all the kings or queens. So he has nothing more to offer.

The facts are here. Read them again.

 

[BadVenm]

Tony used a word that can not be over looked in this whole thing. "Pressure"

I have seen first hand how some of the vendors in here get a little weird when they find out they got beat on price.

Does Tony's use of the word "Pressure" mean some Belanger distributors might have called Lou B and pitched a fit that RMS got a better deal, could they have put "Pressure" on Lou B about being long standing distributors, maybe even mentioned not selling his line anymore, and then maybe RMS lost their group deal due to "Pressure" as Tony put it????

That is what I read into it anyway.

 

[J DAWG]

Tony used a word that can not be over looked in this whole thing. "Pressure"

I have seen first hand how some of the vendors in here get a little weird when they find out they got beat on price.

Does Tony's use of the word "Pressure" mean some Belanger distributors might have called Lou B and pitched a fit that RMS got a better deal, could they have put "Pressure" on Lou B about being long standing distributors, maybe even mentioned not selling his line anymore, and then maybe RMS lost their group deal due to "Pressure" as Tony put it????

That is what I read into it anyway.

Perfectly said as well as RMS' response. I apologive for saying RMS was at fault. BE(Viper23) and RMS were both legit.

<font color="red">STIRRING THE ***-looks like it was other vendors, hmmmmm wonder who, on the phone with their bitchin'. </font>

 

[BigCarrot]

Am I the only one who thinks this is getting old? Beating a dead horse?

 

[BadVenm]

Am I the only one who thinks this is getting old? Beating a dead horse?

I'm sure it's getting old.

But I would think that most of us would like to know and understand why the vendors we have spent so much money with in the past killed this deal.

If those vendors were really here to help this community why did they call Lou B and throw a hissy fit just because another vendor was on his game, worked out a better deal, and offered them to us cheaper. Was it because it made them look bad? Was it greed and they don't want to have to sell them cheaper and make less?

Shouldn't those vendors that killed this deal just called Lou B and said they we want in on that group buy, and then posted another header war?

The Viper Community would have been the winners that way. This way our vendors didn't help us, they just cost us more money.

I for one, just think the Viper community should know who just cost us more money for a set of headers by killing a group buy. Just my $.02 worth.

 

[patgilm]

I agree with you BadVenm, it ***** that it turned out this way and then having the vendor bashed about it.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

I also find it interesting that Lou supposedly disavowed any knowledge of Scott and/or RMS according to one post, and yet it appears that this deal was worked with Lou to begin with. I am with Ryck, in that it seems as though there may have been a little bit of a break on the Viper Tax that other vendors may not have appreciated. I still think that a group buy in ANY product should get you a price break, as it benefits everyone. It is too bad this one went so horribly south, and I would say that Viper23 was completely on the up-and-up throughout it all.

 

[FranciscoR.]

Not to " diss " any vendors but have to ask. Are there vendors so callous that they would resort to less then desireable action just because an item is being offered at a lower price then them ?

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Not to " diss " any vendors but have to ask. Are there vendors so callous that they would resort to less then desireable action just because an item is being offered at a lower price then them?

Absolutely, and this happens in the business world everyday. Let's say that I am a large dealer of one particular brand of high-end camera. I sell the cameras all day long for $1000 each, while I buy them from the manufacturer for $800 each. Then one day I see an ad in the local paper from a small company that is barely even a competitor of mine. They are advertising this exact camera for $750 - $50 below my cost.

Do I sit by and say, "Gee, they must be getting a good deal!" or do I immediately get on the phone with the manufacturer and say, "What the hell is this?!" The manufacturer can then tell me the deal (group purchase), disavow any knowledge of it, or simply offer me a similar deal. For the consumer, you would hope that the manufacturer would offer me a similar deal such as "a group purchase of ten or more can buy these from us at $700".

And if I was REALLY good (and I am), I would contact the manufacturer and ask for a BIG group purchase (instead of 10 make it 50) and then offer it to the smaller camera shop with a slight markup. I would then then match his advertised price for my retail customers without advertising the fact. Maybe I am now buying them at $600 each, selling them to my competitor for $650 (cheaper than what he can get from the manufacturer because he doesn't have the volume), and still making some money on the retail even at the discounted price. So instead of becoming the "bad guy" and costing my competitor his business and costing consumers a great deal, I end up with even LOWER costs which I make up on volume - especially since I am now supplying one of my competitors and can start working other volume-oriented business.

Whew! Sorry for the quick lecture, but this is how I would have played it. Some obviously just choose to go the other route...

 

[Rollin4]

I agree with the above, someone pull the plug on the life support for this post.
The more it goes on the more confusing it gets. There is too much He said this or didn't say that, forget it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SNKEBIT]

Everybody want's to get rich yesterday!!!!!!!

 

[Gerald]

.....did I miss something?......

 

[Torquemonster]

Am I the only one who thinks this is getting old? Beating a dead horse?

Carrot - probably many agree with you - except those whose character got called into question. To them it is very important.

I posted this before but it somehow disappeared so this is a repost

All I have to say is on the other thread that says that RMS did NOT try to scam members - I was wrong.

Some of the later posts above say it all and I have verified that best I can FWIW

 

[2BADD 4U]

As the world turns......(my quote)When I spoke to Lou Belanger on the phone, he told me in PLAIN English that he DOES NOT know of RMS and Scott, and has no dealings with him...And that RMS IS NOT a BELANGER DEALER...That phone call was also a 3 way "conference" call with Jon B from Parts rack Too! Call Jon B....(my quote)

Now I see the truth...I called Jon B for a price on Belangers.......I tell him about the $1480 group buy....he got all excited and immediately is dialing Belanger's company with me on a 3 way call....now this is making sense...Jon B was hissy fitting, about the low ball prices..... to grab a sale with me.....and sent me numerous emails and offers...( very high pressure style)I do remember the 3 way conversation( Me , Jon, and Lou B) very clearly, and Now I see what happened...jon was very persistant to make this 3 way conversation , I did not ask for it, ....Lou B, was accomodating jons request(in my presence)...and jon was acting like HE was the biggest and best Belanger dealer on the earth

So there you have it guys, our own vendor killed this deal to prosper himself...

THE END

 

[Jerry Dobson]

I have been sitting back waiting for someone to say it. I have read all the posts and it was very clear to me. It was like a game of CLUE.

Then 2Bad4U said it, JonB

 

[FranciscoR.]

So you're saying this one guy, who everybody " looks up to " for great deals, [******] it up for everyone else because heaven forbid someone but him " make money " ? Do you mean to say he single handedly made Bellanger " renig " on other deal because of who Jon B. was ?

( I don't mean to sound sarcastic. I just want to hear it in plain English. )