Roe vs Cragin SC??

[V10 MOJO]

im not a tech or master mechanic by any standards. can this thread be honest and objective input on differences b/t roe and cragin sc? no flames, bs, or biased p*ssed off opinions please. these two developers have done more than we could ever do(unless one of us has a developing sc project in our basement) so show some respect and lets get some educated downlo on these excellent items for those of us undecided on where to drop the cash

 

[J DAWG]

I don't have much insight for you, but the one important similarity they seem to have is a great deal of time, research, and effort by these 2 companies. It seemed the projects were not revealed until they were ready and proven.
I do know the Roe s/c makes around 5 ilbs of boost. I have not seen #'s on the twin s/c system.
I like the fact that they can be placed on a stock car and create a considerable gain in hp for an inexpensize price.
It seems the twin system gets into upgrading the fuel system a little bit, I guess because it creates more boost.
I would also like to know how much boost is made by the twin system and what testing was done for the creampuffs with the cast pistons.

 

[Joel]

Been involved to a small extent in the fitting of one of the Sean Roe superchargers. Its a very neat simple installation. The inlet manifold is a CNC machined work of art. The instructions are clear and concise and overall it is very much a DIY prospect. There are a few issues with fueling and ignition which seem to be showing up in certain markets with variations in fuel octane, and no doubt ambient temperature and humidity have an effect also. It seems that Sean has these under control and is working carefully with his customers to resolve any problems.

Personally I like the look and engineering behind Dan C's twin supercharger kit. I have ordered one. Bearing in mind the limitations imposed by the standard compression ratio, I think it may have the potential to produce more power, an intercooler upgrade will be available. However it is more expensive, and involves more work in its fitment. It does have more modifications to the fuel system and ignition than Seans base kit.

I hope that both vendor's won't mind me passing judgement on their systems. I think Seans kit began as a simple fit power hike for the standard V10 and has entered the horsepower war.

Dans kit possibly designed to come in at a slightly higher level with more development potential, but again capped by that CR and probably engine strength.

On speaking to Dan a while back, the cast pistons just need a bit less boost.

 

[SUN RA KAT]

The ability to safely work with "Creampuff" cast pistons was one of the reasons why Sean Roe's Supercharger has only a 5 pound boost. He plans on an upgrade to the kit for those with forged pistons that can take a higher boost. I don't know about Dan Cragin's Supercharger working with cast pistons - if it's safe or not. I'm sure he'll answer that question. They both look like great systems.

 

[CitySnake]

It is important to remember that before making any mechanical/application comparison, there is a significant price difference. Sean's system is $7,000 + $500 to $1,000 to install (variation depends on location hourly mechanic's cost and may be eliminated altogether if you have the time and place to self install) = $8,000 tops. Dan's system (to the best of my knowledge and please correct me if I'm wrong) is $10,000 + $3,000 install (not nearly as easy a self install system) = $13,000 tops. $5,000 is a significant difference (~40%) in price and suggests to me that these 2 systems are not directly competing with each other.

 

[Kurt 97 GTS]

This is a great post and works on answering the same question that I had. Appreciate everyone objective views!!

 

[V10 MOJO]

what about performance numbers. RWHP increase for each (without mods)? Roes suggests 70mm TB, headers, hiflo cats, 3" tubes, etc to get the numbers seen, what upgrades are required for Cragins numbers? It would be good to know RWHP for each system without the mods included and also with the recommended mods included

IMHO this is a very tough decision as to which one to go with, h*ll, they even both look great!

 

[MES]

Another thing to consider is the brand of supercharger. Roe is using Autorotor which is a very well respected supercharger company, I've never heard of the twin supercharger company before. Roe's supercharger is also very simple, uses stock computer, stock fuel system, stock air box, etc. (simple=more reliable) Either system will be limited to 5-6 on cast pistons and 8 on forged pistons. Without major engine work your not going to see more than 200-230 rwhp gains from these systems at 8 psi. So I don't think the gain in rwhp should be the deciding factor as both should be close given the same boost levels. Dan's has more potential for higher HP but if you looking for 800+ rwhp send your car away to a place like DLM and get the work done. A DIY supercharger should be simple, reliable, and basic. If your looking for any more than that, it would be best to send your car off to a tuner.

I'm no expert, just my .02

 

[V10 MOJO]

MES, i agree and im not (yet) looking for 800+HP gains or yes i would do DLM. the thing im trying to figure out is like i said before, which one makes the most without mods and then with mods (the mods being your standard bolt ons, etc) I think roe's boost is around 6psi, what is cragins? since the prices are so close and they both have a great cosmetic look, the only thing to go with is RWHP capabilities with the stock setup.

 

[holdontight]

All sounds great but who will warranty if something goes wrong? I want to supercharge but have an extended warranty so the Roe seems like a good choice because it is off and on in a pretty easy way

 

[CitySnake]

Sean's boost (sounds *****) is 5 psi (not 6). If you are VERY concerned about the factory warranty, you may want to think twice about supercharging. To the extent that you do, Sean's system is definitively easier to "remove" in the event that there is some warranty "issue"

.

Again, I think you need to consider what YOU are ultimately looking for in the way of HP and your intended use of it. Sean's system seems capable of about 600 RWHP with the "standard" set of mods (headers, hf cats, catback, rockers, TB's, tubes and filters). Dan Cragin's system would seem to be able to create more HP with further upgrades.

When I was considering S/C alternatives, I was looking for the following (listed in their approximate order of importance):
1) drive-ability...I wanted a "daily driver capable" car that could embarrass Porsches (et al) at my whim

2) reputable tuner
3) cost of S/C
4) cost to install (I don't have the facilities to do the work

)
5) the simplest system
6) most likely to enable me to "work with" factory warranty
7) time to install
8) HP/TRQ (minimum of 25% increase)

In the end, with what is presently available in the marketplace, my decision seemed obvious. Change the order of preference (and add/delete some) and you'll likely buy a different S/C! I still see all the tuners (that I am aware of) selling to different markets.

 

[V10 MOJO]

Citysnake, i appreciate the input and agree with you. one thing i am also considering is (obviously) cost. and seans, while less expensive, is in actuality just as or more expensive with the recommended upgrades (TB's, T&D's, headers, etc)to get his HP and stats. if im not mistaken the cragin does about the same (600RWHP) without those upgrades.

 

[CitySnake]

rdustman:
I don't have enough first hand knowledge of Dan Cragin's system to properly comment...so I will not! I can tell you that with your present mods you should be within ~50 hp of the Sean's dyno'd 600 rwhp. So you would be adding...maybe ~140 hp for $8,000 = $57/h. The next 50 hp (headers) may cost you ~$2,250 = $45/h utilizing Sean's S/C and parts (I believe that the TB's don't really add much hp...just more immediacy to the punch). So you get to ~600 rwhp for ~$10,250...let's say ~11,000 for any misc extras.

Perhaps you can contact Dan and get his cost and output (with various mods). As a minor point, I think that the centrifugal SC system does generate quite as much trq as the autorotor twin screw system...of course I could be wrong so please correct me

Anyway (my brain hurts)....I think it's really terrific that we can now discuss and consider choices!

 

[V10 MOJO]

citysnake, glad you and the others who have posted are providing input for something worthwhile. some of the post subjects are getting a bit ridiculous. anyway, i digress, did you mean to say the centrifugal DOES generate as much trq as the autorotor? what mods are you concomitantly using with the roe? and if you got headers, hiflo cats and something like corsa catback, hows the sound? im leary of headers d/t the noise level i do not want this car too loud and i think my hiflo cat/corsa cobo is about at the limit, i could be wrong, what do you think

 

[CitySnake]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdustman:
did you mean to say the centrifugal DOES generate as much trq as the autorotor? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No...my understanding is that it does not (twin screw &gt; centrifugal), however, the difference is relatively minor (as an imprecise example - instead of 600/620 the yield might be something like 600/590).

what mods are you concomitantly using with the roe? and if you got headers, hiflo cats and something like corsa catback, hows the sound?

here's another thread that I posted that may give you some insight (if you haven't already seen it): http://vca1.viperclub.org/ubb/Forum14/HTML/014727.html

I am all stock except: hf cats, tubes and filters. The stock sound was made a bit louder (maybe 5db) since the hf cats were installed and louder still after the S/C. Not nearly as loud as the Corsa/Borla/B&B catback systems but noticeably/stealthily louder.

im leary of headers d/t the noise level i do not want this car too loud and i think my hiflo cat/corsa cobo is about at the limit, i could be wrong, what do you think

I'm not sure 1 3/4 headers will make that much of a change. The mass of airflow will increase with the S/C so my guess is that the tone will remain the same but the volume may increase just a bit. You may want to give Sean Roe a call as he was extremely helpful to me.

 

[Eddie N]

it comes down to how much power you want and what kind of gas you have in your state..

dans system put down 617 rwhp running 91 octane on a stock engine (not sure of the psi, i want to say 5 or 6 since the dual set up is probably more efficient than the single).. that says alot right there.. on 93 octane you can probably get another conservative 2 psi bumping the output to at least 650 rwhp if not in the 670 range... still keep in mind this is a stock engine.. with the basic bolt ons you are probably easily in the range of 700 rwhp on pump gas.. ******** an intercooler for a few grand, bump the psi another 2 and you've got at least 750 rwhp.. my only concern is the cast pistons being able to handle 8+ psi safely.. but if you're in that deep, upgrading to forged wont be a big deal..

seans system put down 600 rwhp on 93 octane on a lightly modified engine with headers and catback at only 5 psi... but, seans kit is 3 grand cheaper and is more power than most people need..

another concern is that if you are stuck in a state with crappy 91 octane, dans system seems to be putting out more power at that octane than seans set up.. this probably has to do with the twin superchargers not heating the air as much as the single supercharger, but i could be wrong..

in short, i think the cragin system has more potential at an added cost, but how much potential do you really need? you have to ask yourself, are you a citysnake or a treynor?

- eddie -

 

[WCKDVPR]

Great discussion -

Other important issues are:

Powerband (where is the power made - high rpm only or over a wide rpm range?)

Boost lag / throttle response (is it different between centrifugal and screw?)

Usability for different driving objectives (street, drag race, road race - tuners please answer the road race one

- thanks)

Tuners - thank you for bringing these products to market at a realistic price point - please jump in and help us out with some additional information.

Regards,

 

[Sean Roe]

Hi Guys,

Don't get confused about why we tested different mods with the supercharger. They are not required. We wanted to see how much torque and HP we could make at the low boost level by increasing efficiency, and we did it step by step. This gives us the ability to answer the "how much power will my engine make with..." questions correctly because we've done it. Obviously, the more air you let it flow in and out, the more power it will make. Now that we have the system working very efficiently, we could easily turn up the boost to the levels others are running (will require a PCM change / upgrade and fuel pump upgrade to be effective).

All of our dyno sheets are posted here on the site. You can certainly see what the engine had, or did not have at the time the test was done. The lowest #'s I recall were with the SC (5 psi) smooth tubes, filters, Borla 1&5/8" headers, high flow cats and a cat back (all else OE). You can find them in the posts, but I think they were a peak of 564 RWHP and 585-590 RWTQ. With 1.7 rockers, larger headers and 70 mm TB's it was 600 RWHP and 612 RWTQ. Obviously, the torque curve was flat. As an FYI, SW's car made within 2 HP and TQ with the same mods.

Next, I don't really want to get involved in a comparison thread Vs someone else because someone may misunderstand something I say and think I'm trying to diss what Dan has built. I saw it at VOI and asked Dan to give me the tour. Equally, he came over and looked at ours. It looks like he did a good job and I can relate to what he had to go through to build one. The silver car in his display at VOI did have headers on it, as I would expect most SC'd cars would.

Dan and I built two different types of systems. A positive displacement and a centrifugal are completely different in the way the come on and where they make HP or TQ. Just look at the dyno graphs and the torque curves. If you want to make comparisons, compare centrifugals to each other for apples to apples, the prices are about the same after installation(Heffner, DLM stage 1, Golden West, Cragin).

We're not going after the big HP #'s. There are enough people doing that and Dan's kit is even advertised as "with capability to upgrade to any level you want". How can you compare our system to that? Wait until someone comes out with another sub $7K DIY SC kit and then compare it to the one we make.


All the Viper forced induction kits have their own set of pro's and con's. I think each individual will find a kit that fits his / her goals and tastes.

Just my .02

Sean

 

[CitySnake]

There

EXACTLY what I said

 

[V10 MOJO]

thnx for all input, sean roe's especially. you tuner guys are class acts and its good to have the products you offer available. still a difficult decision but one that albeit must be made...all in the name of peformance, LOL.

 

[Greg D]

Dan, Does your system carry a California E. O. number making it smog legal here in California? And, when one upgrades from the basic entry level kit, will the new system still be California smog legal?
Being a California resident, an E. O. number is a must for me.

 

[99 R/T 10]

To Dan and Sean,
From all Gen I owners(presumptuous),
When will the Gen I kits come out? Sean, it was great to meet you at VOI and if you do need a gen I car to work on, mine is available. Dan, great looking setup! Need to figure out that alt. position. Great job to both!

Mike

 

[Kurt 97 GTS]

Sean and Dan,

Thanks for your input. It's nice to have a civil discussion regarding the merits of each system. Both of you are class acts!!! Keep up the great work....Kurt

 

[V10 MOJO]

i agree, thnx for offering your expert input, since they are your sc's is good to get opinions and facts from the tuners. wait whats this; now paxton is doing one, sheesh, this is getting to be nightmare of lovely options, LOL.